BillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 847 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 13969 times:
From Telegraaf, Amsterdam Holland.
SYDNEY - Een meningsverschil tussen de piloot en co-piloot van het Garuda-toestel dat 7 maart neerstortte bij de Indonesische stad Yogyakarta, is mogelijk de oorzaak van de crash. Dat blijkt uit de recorder van de cockpit, aldus een Indonesische onderzoeker.
A disagreement between the pilot and the co-pilot from the Garuda airplane that on 7 March crashed near the Indonesian city Yogyakarta, is potentially the reason for the crash. This is evident from the cockpit voice recorded stated by and Indonesian inspector.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
BillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 847 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 13890 times:
Further.
Uit de opnames blijkt dat het toestel nog veel snelheid had en de co-piloot nog een rondje wilde maken in plaats van direct te landen. „Ik ben bang dat het ongeluk gebeurde door verstrooidheid van de bemanning”, aldus Tatang Kurniadi voor de Australische tv-zender Nine Network.
De politie ging er direct al vanuit dat menselijk falen vermoedelijk de oorzaak was van het ongeluk. Direct na het vliegtuigongeluk, waarbij 21 mensen omkwamen, zeiden overlevenden al dat het toestel met grote snelheid de landing inzette. Bijna 120 inzittenden overleefden de ramp.
From the recording it appears that the airplane still had alot of speed and the co-pilot wanted to do a go around in place of a direct landing. "I am afraid that the accident happened because of disorganization from the crew" said Tatang Kurniadi for the Australian TV network Nine-Network.
The police immediately came to the conclusion that human error was the probable reason for the crash. Shortly after the accident, where 21 people died, survivors said that the airplane approach began with high speed. Almost 120 passengers survived the disaster.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
Floridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1985 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13565 times:
Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 3): All this is speculation until the investigation is completed, I suppose.
Exactly. I'll wait to see the transcripts from the CVR before making any conclusions about what happened in the cockpit.
Norcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1277 posts, RR: 13 Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13557 times:
Well, I guess that would confirm what NAV20 was saying all along.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21025 posts, RR: 60 Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13510 times:
Don't believe it. It's obviously a flaw in the 737 classic design and they should be banned... and don't tell the Indonesian government otherwise.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
MD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2622 posts, RR: 11 Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13416 times:
Apparently there is a rather serious flaw with that model 737, that needs to be addressed. It is regarding an electrical short in the wiring to the wingtip landing lights, which causes the engine on that wing to shut down.
I too will wait for all the data to surface before casting blame.
StealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5425 posts, RR: 49 Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13321 times:
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 8): Apparently there is a rather serious flaw with that model 737, that needs to be addressed. It is regarding an electrical short in the wiring to the wingtip landing lights, which causes the engine on that wing to shut down.
What has that, if it has real basis, got to do with a plane that had both engines running.
Further despite claims of a dispute between the crew there is also dispute between Indonesian officials and investigators so this story still has more to play. From the Sydney Morning Herald. April 2
....."THE chief investigator of the Garuda plane crash that killed five Australians denies the allegation that the pilot and co-pilot were arguing before the crash.
Cockpit voice recordings recovered from the jet showed the co-pilot wanted the pilot to go around again instead of landing, Tatang Kurniadi of Indonesia's National Transport Safety Commission told Channel Nine's Sunday program yesterday.
But the chief investigator, Mardjono Siswosuwarno, told the Herald yesterday there was "no such … discussion between pilot and co-pilot describing their confusion about what was happening" and that conversations between the two were considered to be "normal"......
MD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2622 posts, RR: 11 Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13171 times:
Quoting StealthZ (Reply 9): What has that, if it has real basis, got to do with a plane that had both engines running.
We don't know for certain if both engines were running, or were producing equal thrust (the FDR will reveal the truth). Curmudgeon posted an incident report of a 737-400 with the problem I described....which was a basis for discussion, last month, about what could be the reason for high speed and inproper flap deployment during the late phases of the approach.
StealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5425 posts, RR: 49 Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13068 times:
MD80,
I stand corrected but your comment presented in isolation may lead some to give credence to Ikramerica's obviously tongue in cheek comment(It was wasn't it, Ikramerica?)
The fault you mention while serious, damn I would hate for an engine shutdown at that point, is certainly not commonplace.
With hundreds, perhaps thousands of 734 flights a day and many many hundreds of thousands over the years this does not seem to have occured very often.
Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
Avt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2131 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13061 times:
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 10): We don't know for certain if both engines were running
We don't know anything for certain ,but that's not stopping anyone from rampant speculation. Why not wait for facts before arguing pointlessly? It could have been any number of problems, including incompetence, but at this point there isn't enough hard facts available. As for the pax opinion mon approach speed, I don't beleive any of it. I've flown as a pax for decades, but I still can't tell from looking out the window how the approach is going. I'd prefer to wait for FDR data.
Curmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22 Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12983 times:
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 10): We don't know for certain if both engines were running, or were producing equal thrust (the FDR will reveal the truth). Curmudgeon posted an incident report of a 737-400 with the problem I described....which was a basis for discussion, last month, about what could be the reason for high speed and inproper flap deployment during the late phases of the approach.
Jeez man! I posted that in a light-hearted vein to show that there are new flaws surfacing all the time in aging airliners. In the millions of hours logged in the last 15 years, there have been exactly three airborne engine failures due to the fuel shut-off valve getting an erroneous "close" signal when the outboard landing light motor operates. This a wiring bundle issue, and the FAA currently has no sense of urgency about it. (because the risk of two engines failing is over the one:ten billion range, and operating those lights is optional)
This airliner was making power on both engines as noted on the FDR. Additionally, an engine failure, even with no flaps at all, is no reason to crash an airplane.
This is simply a case of the captain having a cognitive disconnect...fixating on the landing rather than the reality of a high energy situation. The F/O apparently suggested a go-around but did nothing to take control until it was too late. The exact timing and sequence of events will be released by the Indonesian authorities soon.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12329 posts, RR: 12 Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12967 times:
If 'pilot disagreement' could have been a factor in this deadly crash, one has to wonder about the training and update training of the pilots and co-pilots at that airline, especially as to cockpit management and not have a pilot seen as an absolute leader.
Jasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10806 times:
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14): If 'pilot disagreement' could have been a factor in this deadly crash, one has to wonder about the training and update training of the pilots and co-pilots at that airline, especially as to cockpit management and not have a pilot seen as an absolute leader.
The disagreement could be anything from a simple enquiry by one crew member to the other about the nature of the approach to an all out slanging match between the crew, we don't know yet. My interpretation was that the statement was made by an official involved with the ongoing investigation and was then summarily retracted. By this time however the media has run with the story, as for the truth, we still don't know.
PipoA380 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1591 posts, RR: 52 Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8240 times:
Quoting EK156 (Reply 2): Was this an ego issue from the pilot or Captian? I mean why didn't he listen to his FO? This is very sad!!!
This happened a lot in some major crashes. The fact that the Captain has authority on the FO, and that very often, FOs do not dare to say something to the captain, this can lead to some very bad situations.
I'm thinking of the Tenerife crash, where the FO did not tel the captain that he wasn't sure the tower had given them clearance. And others as well, where same thing happened. I guess cockpit management still has some work to do...
It's not about AIRBUS. it's not about BOEING. It's all about the beauty of FLYING.
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8131 times:
Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 17): This happened a lot in some major crashes.
This indeed wouldn´t be the first time authority of senior captains prevented a better judgement of the F/O avoiding an accident. If I recall right Korean had a serious problem with this in the past. Pilots were almost all ex airforce people with much self confidence & a strict cockpit hierarchy.
BHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7614 times:
Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 17): This happened a lot in some major crashes. The fact that the Captain has authority on the FO, and that very often, FOs do not dare to say something to the captain, this can lead to some very bad situations.
A friend of mine died like this. He had told several of us that if he kept flying with the same Captain(corporate jet) that he would defnitely die. He gave two weeks notice and intended to work through the notice so he'd have a chance for a good reference and ended up flying into a mountain in NW Georgia in the clouds while trying to get the Captain to climb.
Pilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2498 posts, RR: 50 Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7311 times:
Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 19): A friend of mine died like this. He had told several of us that if he kept flying with the same Captain(corporate jet) that he would defnitely die. He gave two weeks notice and intended to work through the notice so he'd have a chance for a good reference and ended up flying into a mountain in NW Georgia in the clouds while trying to get the Captain to climb.
damn!......that's just horrible...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
AirTran717 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 746 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6376 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6): Don't believe it. It's obviously a flaw in the 737 classic design and they should be banned...
PolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6029 times:
Many of the arguments here are based on the small piece of quote.
Here's the "facts" that I gathered from reading the news:
1. The captain was the one who's doing the landing
2. Captain asked for the flaps to be lowered
3. Flaps did not jam, rather the co pilot did not lower the flaps.
I thought that eventhough the F/O has to give inputs to the Captain, but the last decision is in the captain's hand, especially he's the one doing the landing. Why did the F/O not put down the flaps if the captain asked him to do so.
I am just trying to understand how the cockpit dynamic works. I thought the last decision has to come from the one doing the landing.
We do not know what happened in the cockpit, and what would have happened if the flaps were lowered. Though go around could have saved the airplane and it is the safest alternative, but if that's the case, there would not be any landing.
Who's fault is it, if lowering the flaps would have slowed down the airplane enough, to warrant a safe landing, and the Captain did not realize that the flaps was not properly lowered, under the stress of landing the airplanes?
I am sure part of the blame also lies on the Captain, but I have always thought that because of the Captain's position as the one who's doing the landing, the F/O should have helped him rather than contradict him and create the "arguments", and vice versa.
FoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2801 posts, RR: 5 Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6005 times:
Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 21): Just what flaw might that be? Do enlighten us.
I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure Ikramerica was taking a sarcastic jab at the Indonesian government's misguided response to the unfortunate recent series of accidents and incidents. Without even waiting to determine the cause, the government has proposed such draconian measures as banning aircraft older than 10 years.
AirTran717 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 746 posts, RR: 4 Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5712 times:
Yes, I have discovered that tone in this thread. I follow now. LOL It does typically seem to be the line of thought that it's automatically human error in these cases.... to see a government say it's automatically the plane's error? LOL
717
I have had some experience with Indian pilots... they typically insinuate that they are not wrong about whatever given subject... be it airplanes, or the score of the Red Sox game. Being wrong must be beneath them in some way. I dunno.
BuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2778 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5532 times:
[quote=FoxBravo,reply=23]I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure Ikramerica was taking a sarcastic jab [quote]
Of course he was, but it was too subtle apparently
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
25 Morvious: True but he did asked the pilot "Isnt he cleared yet?" while the captain replied with an easy, "Yup" and "Oh yes" I also think that it didn't manner
26 LJDRVR: Not sure what's more sad, the police chief officially pronouncing the cause of the accident based on his "investigation", or you amateurs attempting t
27 AirTran717: A little harshly worded, but I couldn't agree more. People on a.net have nothing better to do than speculate all day long on issues they either don't
28 MD80fanatic: Nope, the cockpit crew is alive and well.
29 AirTran717: The point is that people died in this incident. In the ultimate scheme of things, does it matter if it's crew or passengers? Of course not. 717
30 Jetfuel: How you do you know who is an amateur?
31 F9Animal: I find this hard to believe, as I have always heard good things about Garuda and its pilots. Although it is possible, I would think there would be bet
32 SEPilot: I have never flown a 737, but on small planes the feel of flaps going down is unmistakeable. I cannot believe an experienced captain would not know j
33 Pilotaydin: well....fly 180 duty hours a month, 1000 flight hours a year, and 1800 duty hours a year...and you won't know where you are, or what you're doing....
34 LJDRVR: I don't, Jetfuel. But the fact that you're making an issue about it leads me to believe you probably are. If you had any expertise you'd be busy laug
35 SEPilot: But if you were in the middle of a very tricky approach and ordered your copilot to lower the flaps, you don't think you wouldn't realize it if he (o
36 MD80fanatic: Pilotaydin: You cannot remember routine, uneventful flights. But if one particular flight ended in a rice paddy with your aircraft on fire...chances a
37 Pilotaydin: that's a good issue you're standing on...see i dont know what they talked about on the deck, but sometimes the captain asks for weird things at weird
38 PolymerPlane: That is after the fact though. He would not have guessed that his airplane would ended up in a rice field. Cheers, PP
39 MD80fanatic: All memory is "after the fact". When something big happens.....like the space shuttle blowing up, everything directly leading up to the event is reme
40 Gammagirl: Interesting reading in this mornings Sydney Morning Herald http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/pla...peed/2007/04/06/1175366474352.html According to the
41 BuyantUkhaa: From the article: The Indonesian Transport Minister, Hatta Radjasa, has tried to block the release of the "preliminary factual aircraft accident repor
42 Gammagirl: A clarification, it seems: http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/...ATSB/2007/04/07/1175366524674.html Not suppressed, merely delayed as a courtesy to t
Sponsor Message: 
From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 847 posts, 
From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2005, 765 posts, 
From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1985 posts, 
From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5425 posts, 
From Turkey, joined Dec 2005, 62 posts, 
From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1591 posts, 
From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2778 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
