Mas777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2926 posts, RR: 6 Posted (13 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1103 times:
Apart from Northwest Airlines announcing their new cooperation with Malaysia Airlines to make Kuala Lumpur International its Southeast Asian hub. The Malaysian government has announced that Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah International will close in April 2002 - thereby consolidating ALL flights into and out of Kuala Lumpur via KLIA...about time too.
PS. The delay in closure of SAAS was due to the delay in the building of the Express Rail Link which will reduce journey time from KLIA into the city to 31 minutes and cost about US$10.
Mas777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2926 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (13 years 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 995 times:
Alain - I don't understand your question...
Jonnyboy - Domestic services operate out of KUL and SZB at the moment but all Pelangi Air, Air Asia and Berjaya Air (the other 3 Malaysian carriers) only operate out of SZB as they have refused to move premises and are less dependant on international traffic.
Expect an announcement from MAS, KLM, Jet Airways, Kenya Airways, Air China and Northwest with respect to the 'Wings' Alliance soon.
Mas777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2926 posts, RR: 6 Reply 5, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 970 times:
The Malaysian media has reported the goverment to have requested British Airways NOT to pull out of Kuala Lumpur as the UK is the single most important European market for Malaysia with the British being the most popular tourists/visitors to Malaysia and the UK being Malaysia's most popular destination in Europe. The Malaysian government had previously warned Qantas of making a similar mistake in 1984 which has left Qantas being unable to return to the Malaysian market...
...note that BA is now Australian-run...just something I noticed.
In the news, KLM and Swissair are front contenders for a stake in Malaysia Airlines which will give them virtually unlimited access into Malaysia and beyond. MAS and Northwest have already been granted anti-trust immunity status.
Tullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1261 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 954 times:
MAS777, I find it very hard to believe that QF is locked out of the Malaysian market. Given the low utilisation of KLIA I would expect they would be welcomed back with open arms if they chose to go there again.
They withdrew by choice because the yields on the route were poor and KUL offered nothing to QF that wasn't available from SIN or BKK. Likewise AN pulled out because the Asian economic crisis made the route highly unprofitable.
The fact that Rod Eddington is Australian has nothing to do with BA's decision to leave KUL. He is a great lover of all things Asian but that would not have stopped him making the economic decision that the KUL route was a financial dud.
Vadheim From Norway, joined Jul 2000, 622 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 947 times:
Is'nt it difficult for KLIA to establish a really big hub for southeast Asia in KL, as most big airlines already fly to both Bangkok and Singapore. (These two cities are only 2 flying hours appart, and KL is situated in the middle). When Bangkok get their new airport and we already know what Changi stand for, I can imagine it will be even harder in the future to attract new airlines to KL. Bangkok will always be an attractive destination because of it's size and Singapore is still one of the most important business centres of the world. What has KL to offer??
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4450 posts, RR: 74 Reply 8, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 939 times:
I completely agree with Tullamarine and Vadheim on this one. KLIA is indeed very under-used, and would welcome any airline with open arms. The simple fact at this point is that the airport is too close to BKK and SIN to attract a lot of longhaul business. In Europe, you can see Brussels airport struggling with the same problem, because Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Paris and London are so close.
As a result, certain longhaul routes to Europe have proven themselves not to be profitable. Some distiguished members of this forum have been trying to add all kinds of other reasons for KLIA loosing its longhaul carriers, but those reasonings were mainly based on emotional facts.
Indeed, as reputable airlines as Lufthansa, Qantas and British Airways decided to pull out of the country, you might expect some serious grounds for that kind of action, not just some emotional fact. Point is that their flight were not economically viable...
I understand that, for local supporters, this situation might be frustrating, but, in my point of view, KLIA will never grow bigger than a regional asean hub, attracting a limited number of European and American carriers.
So, don't expect South African, Ain New Zealand, SAS or Air Mauritius anytime soon in KLIA, unless Changi is closed for bad weather...
G-KIRAN From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2000, 736 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 939 times:
Just to tell you that Air Mauritius DOES fly to KLIA.I agree with most of your points,KLIA is under used.Most Malaysians seem to think that KLIA is the best in the world.Its one of the best but not the best.
Before anyone says that I am anti-malaysian,anti-mahathir,pro-anwar etc this is just to tell you that half my family is malaysian and I SUPPORT mahathir!
Whats the point of building a massive 100sqkm airport 70km from the city centre when you cant attract passengers to it?
Anyone can build a high-tech airport,but if you cant get people to fly there then it does not say much.
Triple Seven From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 527 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 927 times:
You have to remember when most of these projects were undertaken (KLIA, Petronas Towers, KL Towers, MSC etc.), the country had a very strong economy. No one then could foresee a crisis looming ahead. In 1997, months before the crisis really began, the Malaysian Ringgit (currencies) was voted 'currency of the year' by the inernational banking or something like that. Why ? Projection of further strong growth, stable government etc. During the years prior to the crisis of 1997 everything in Malaysia (economy) was going in only one direction and that was up. To cope with future projection they would have to built these infrastructure. Yes I agree that Malaysia do not need the tallest building in the world but during those time it certainly had a purpose and a role to play in the country. These infrastructure are NOT, I repeat NOT a big white elephant. The new airport was needed BADLY prior to mid 1997, occupancy rate in office buildings were sky rocketing as well. The country was growing fast and furious then and those projects that brought about the KLIA, Twin towers, KL Towers, MSC had a very significant role to play. During those good years it was certainly a very exciting time If there were no economic crisis and the country continues to grow and investment were just pouring in, what would you then have said about these projects ?
Mas777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2926 posts, RR: 6 Reply 12, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 918 times:
Tullamarine - I never stated that Qantas was not welcomed in Malaysia. I merely pointed out the fact that Qantas has lost the Malaysian market due to its short-sightedness in the market.
I travelled on QF's KUL-SYD 767 service shortly before its demise in 1998 and it was indeed a sorry sight - there were about 28 passengers on the flight and this was after the X'mas / NY holidays. MAS' 747 flight boarding at the next gate was packed and before you state that the majority were transit passengers - looking at the holding room - the majority looked like the average Malaysian travelling public travelling for whatever reason.
As mentioned before - BA's LHR-KUL-SYD route was profitable but as it was a code-share with QF the majority of QF seats flew empty between KUL-SYD - thus the route was axed on QF's part. I have also travelled many times between BNE/SYD and London and my last BNE-SIN sector on BA16 was only about 1/4 full - don't convince me that that route operated at a profit from day to day.
Once again I reiterate that not every route consistently flies at a profit - otherwise all airline timetables will vary considerably depending on the season much like charter carriers. Nor am I 'emotional' about KUL due to the mentioned airlines leaving KUL - it's just a fact that getting on to a flight bound for KUL is often virtually impossible and with airlines pulling out - the consumer is losing out as passengers now HAVE to fly with Malaysia Airlines...(again before anyone shoots me - I'm not against MAS but its nice to have a choice)
I just got off the phone to BA an hour ago trying to book 6 seats to Kuala Lumpur in February - only to be told that only premium seats were available on the leg out but there were no seats available for the return unless I alter my stay AND book First Class. Why is this route such a dud with BA losing so much money on this route when there are no seats available so far in advance during LOW season? Incidently - KLM was also fully booked and MAS has selected seats available on one of their two daily flights...now guess which airline this BA Exec Club member has just booked with...its not hard really.
Vadheim and if anyone else didn't know - KL has a lot to offer and doesn't compare with Bangkok or Singapore as a city. That's like comparing Paris, Barcelona and Prague - not quite the same are they. Kuala Lumpur was actually named one of the Top 10 cities in the world to visit by Wallpaper* magazine last month - second year in the row. For shops - KUL beats SIN hands down due to the exchange rate, for kids there are theme parks for them to spend days in, for sport there are world-class golf courses to play on and the food is still some of the finest in the region.
G-Kiran - not all Malaysians think KLIA is the best - its good and give credit where its due. The point about KLIA being too big has already been discussed to death. It would be very short-sighted and uneconomical for any city to choose a new site and build an airport that doesn't cater to its growing needs. KLIA is NOT too big. One terminal building with one satellite terminal for International flights and two runways is not unjustified. It seems that providing passengers with space and comfort can also provoke criticism too. Also note the circumstances which occured in Asia in 1998 as pointed out by Triple Seven.
HB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4450 posts, RR: 74 Reply 13, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 913 times:
How do you know that it were QF's seats that made B033/034 unprofitable between KUL and SYD?
Basicly, BA and QF have an integrated booking system, and, although, there might be a block of seats reserved for Qantas to market on each BA flight, these systems offer very big flexibility, and whenever BA's share would be full and QF wouldn't have sold a seat (which is basicly what you suggest), seats would be shifted from one carrier to another. This is a very basic system within space control departments.
You continue, however, to indicate that veyr respected airlines made very stupid decisions. Let me repeat you that these decision were for sure not made overnight, and that a decent market prospectus for sure has been made.
The simple fact that BA's flight were full on the day that you want to travel doesn't make the route profitable. There is probably a reason for these flights being full, as also KLM and MAS are filling up quite well, as you stated.
I just screened BA KUL flights for January, and all flights show availability at this point, even in the lowest booking classes of coach (Q-class with BA).
Again, I trust more the opinion of Lufthansa, BA and Qantas, that there was a serious economical reason for pulling out of KUL. The simple reason that KUL was rated a top city for whatever doesn't indeed make their flights profitable...
G-KIRAN From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2000, 736 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (13 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 889 times:
I agree with MAS777 on some points,but if we compare the amount of airlines that flew to KUL before 1997 and compare it with 2000 we will see that a numbers go down hill.KUl has lost major airlines(BA,AF,LH etc) and has only gained a few minor asian carriers.I have been to KLIA over 20 times and more or less every time a go there the airport is so empty.On a recent flight to SIN our MAS 737 was the ONLY aircraft on the main contact pier and the were only a handful of planes on the satelitte.I speant 45 mins watching planes and I only saw 2 movements:a JAL cargo 747 landing and a MAs 737 and an A330 taking off.Thats 1 movement every 15 mins at 6.15pm not 3am.
I did not mention the Petronas twin towers,Kl tower,sunway lagoon,the mines golf course,multi-media super corridor,putrajaya,cyberjaya,sepang formula 1 circuit and bakun dam so I dont know why people are bringing this into the converstaion.
malaysia got a high ranking in a travel mag,but that does not mean a thing.I will give you the results of 2 surveys conducted by Conde Nest Traveller mag.This is a top travel magazine and these stats below were taken form october 2000 of the Uk edition.
Favourite holiday destinations
Based on MAS777s theory,Bhutan should have the worlds 3rdbusiest airspace with airlines reaping lots of profits.Is that the case?No because Druk air is the only airline that flies there.
Fav non-british city:
Now does barcelona or Vneice handle more traffic then KLIA.My point is that being 1st in a major travel survey on cities doesnt mean that all airlines will have profits.
just to cheer everybody up and to end on a high note here are the best airports from the same mag
Gardermoen From Australia, joined Jul 1999, 1520 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (13 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 878 times:
No, Balkan do not fly to KUL, in fact they have dropped their entire Asian network(Abu Dhabi, Doha, Colombo, Calcutta, Male, Singapore, Jakarta and Bangkok). The only destination they do fly is Dubai, which is served with twice weekly B737s.
Mas777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2926 posts, RR: 6 Reply 18, posted (13 years 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 868 times:
I merely mentioned the listing by Wallpaper* in response to '...Bangkok will always be an attractive destination because of it's size and Singapore is still one of the most important business centres of the world. What has KL to offer??...'
'...The simple fact that BA's flight were full on the day that you want to travel doesn't make the route profitable. There is probably a reason for these flights being full, as also KLM and MAS are filling up quite well, as you stated...' - True but that still doesn't answer my question - why is BA still losing money. What is going wrong?
'...I just screened BA KUL flights for January, and all flights show availability at this point, even in the lowest booking classes of coach (Q-class with BA)...' - Were these flights travelling on a weekend. It may surprise you to note that the majority of frequent flyers travel between LHR and KUL on the weekends...and BA until recently didn't have a Friday night flight and a corresponding Sat night return...which was useless to most working people.
'...You continue, however, to indicate that veyr respected airlines made very stupid decisions. Let me repeat you that these decision were for sure not made overnight, and that a decent market prospectus for sure has been made...' - I did not imply this at all - I implied that with a knowledge of the Malaysian travelling public - airlines have found it difficult to return to the Malaysian market once their image is perceived to be unreliable. BA has always had an upmarket and respected image in Malaysia and BA had worked hard to improve its image following the Gulf War and the capture of BA149 bound for KL in 1990. I just fear that along with the Media coverage of its pull-out, Malaysians will only be too quick to stick with MAS evermore - stifling competition.
G-KIRAN From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2000, 736 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (13 years 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 849 times:
I have been to Bangkok and Kl.I prefer KL,bangkok is so dirty and dusty while KL is alot cleaner.I know Kl does not have that many cultural destinations and it cant compare to bangkok and Singapore in terms of shopping.
But what puzzles me is why airlines are pulling out now when the asian economic crisis is more or less over.