Dtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1910 times:
I heard on the radio yesterday that the Michigan Shipwreck Research Associates is going to search again this summer for the wreckage of this DC-4 which crashed into Lake Michigan in 1950.
'The team knew that locating the scattered remains of an airplane, probably in small pieces in deep water, far from shore, would be a difficult task. It could take years of research. While most airplane disasters leave major wreckage to assist officials in determining the cause of the crash, Flight 2501 left only the smallest of clues. Modern day black boxes that record every word spoken from the flight deck along with detailed instrument readings did not exist in 1950. Newspaper reports often were exaggerated, and eyewitnesses were not trustworthy.
If there is major wreckage on the lake bottom, it is likely to be the four massive Pratt & Whitney R2000 engines. These 14-cylinder, air-cooled behemoths were 59.66 inches long, 49.1 inches in diameter and weighed nearly 1,600 pounds each.'
I too was not aware of this incident, but it appears that this is one of the few accidents were no clear answer to the cause has been found.
"PROBABLE CAUSE: "Insufficient evidence upon which to make a determination of probable cause."
WA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2037 posts, RR: 13 Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1855 times:
There's a great article about the search for this aircraft's wreckage in this month's (May 2007) issue of Airways Magazine. Anyone interested in the crash should definitely buy a copy of the magazine!
MSPGUY From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 190 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1818 times:
Charlienorth From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1077 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1713 times:
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 3): I'd like to know what happened to the United 727-100 that went into Lake Michigan in the 1960s....
They found most of it,some diver brought a piece of structure to the Boeing rep at UAL about 10 years ago and it was confirmed from that aircraft.
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1675 times:
Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 4): They found most of it,some diver brought a piece of structure to the Boeing rep at UAL about 10 years ago and it was confirmed from that aircraft.
I sorta meant "what happened" as in "what was the cause of the crash..."
WA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2037 posts, RR: 13 Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1534 times:
I don't think they ever conclusively determined what caused the crash, but I think the theory was that the crew received several ATC descent clearances in quick succession, and lost track of how fast they were descending.
Robert Serling's excellent book Loud And Clear has a chapter about this crash and the two other 727 crashes in 1965, the AA crash at CVG and the UA crash at SLC. Although the book is out of print, it's readily available on Alibris and the other online out of print book websites.
Charlienorth From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1077 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1491 times:
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 5): I sorta meant "what happened" as in "what was the cause of the crash..."
Noted......A few years ago there was a news story where a man had a theory that the aircraft had a flame-out and the crew initiated a dive,similar to what they would do with a viscount to obtain a start,they had a memo from that era from another airline which addressed potential fuel control units with the 727's,never heard anymore about it,sounds more like a fishing for theories expedition.
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 6): Although the book is out of print, it's readily available on Alibris and the other online out of print book websites
Richierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4022 posts, RR: 6 Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1486 times:
Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 7): Noted......A few years ago there was a news story where a man had a theory that the aircraft had a flame-out and the crew initiated a dive,similar to what they would do with a viscount to obtain a start,they had a memo from that era from another airline which addressed potential fuel control units with the 727's,never heard anymore about it,sounds more like a fishing for theories expedition.
A flame-out? On a DC-4? I don't think so....
WA707 points to pilot error for descending too quickly. That is always a possibility, but the fact that both of these were skilled pilots seems to make that a little harder to believe.
Turbulence is still the most likely cause, in my opinion, based on the weather at that time and other aircraft reports.
Either way, it was a very tragic loss and I'm glad that people have not forgotten or "given up" after almost 60 years.
Charlienorth From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1077 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1479 times:
Quoting Richierich (Reply 8): A flame-out? On a DC-4? I don't think so....
NOOO..that was the UAL 727 that crashed off Lake Forest in 1965..
Charlienorth From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1077 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1473 times:
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1446 times:
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 6): about this crash and the two other 727 crashes in 1965, the AA crash at CVG and the UA crash at SLC.
Your mentioning the CVG crash rang a bell, as I was living there at the time, just 11, and already interested in aviation. The mental cobwebs have cleared such that I seem to recall the general 727-related issue (then new) of pilots letting high sink-rates develop and being unspooled, and expecting the engines to react to power changes more quickly, like the prop equipment they were formerly on did. I vaguely recall that the UAL 727 that crashed on the runway at SLC had a really sink-rate (2,000 fpm....
Back to the NTSB reports....
As an aside, TWA had a couple of accidents at CVG back in the mid-1960s, and the happened in quick succession. They were still investigating the first one when the second one occurred. One of the accidents (I forget which) only had a single fatality, but it happened to be a relative of my Dad's boss.
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