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Old Battle In DEN... Who Will Win This Time?  
User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8320 times:

Over 20 years ago in DEN, there was a battle for market share and dominance (CO vs UA vs Frontier); most know how it turned out.

There is a new battle (UA-F9-WN) building and in looking at the national airline scene, most airports have one or two dominate carriers. The City of Denver is quite different in demographics and population, but it is reasonable to assume that the three carriers will not continue to be profitable in the DEN market.

Who will prevail? How long will it take to "shake" out?

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8260 times:

I wouldn't say that WN is a "dominant carrier" in DEN any more than DL, AA or any other airilne that simply serves the field.


Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22932 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8108 times:

It has shaken out. UA has a large (legacy) hub. F9 has a hub that they seem pretty comfortable with; though it's growing slowly, they'll never fly to LHR, for example. And DEN is just another WN station. I don't see the question...


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7963 times:
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Quoting CO767FA (Thread starter):
The City of Denver is quite different in demographics and population,

How so? Not being smart, just curious.


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7926 times:

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 1):
I wouldn't say that WN is a "dominant carrier" in DEN any more than DL, AA or any other airilne that simply serves the field.

Except that WN does about twice as many flights daily compared to DL, or AA or US.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
It has shaken out. UA has a large (legacy) hub. F9 has a hub that they seem pretty comfortable with; though it's growing slowly, they'll never fly to LHR, for example.

Why not? I heard this week that F9 is starting to think of ways to use the EU/US open skies arangement.

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 3):

How so? Not being smart, just curious.

It has a huge catchement area, is right smack dab in the middle of the country both in terms of population density and location, can serve every single market (north/south east/west) and great access to Mexico. The O&D population travel more then any other airport except for Los Vegas.

[Edited 2007-04-05 02:22:47]

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 7870 times:
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Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 4):
I heard this week that F9 is starting to think of ways to use the EU/US open skies arangement.

Now that would be an extremely interesting move. Even so, not LHR, perhaps, but there are a number of other desirable destinations.

 Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22932 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7739 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
but there are a number of other desirable destinations.

Definitely true, but if the expansion is related to the open skies agreement, I couldn't imagine it would be anywhere besides London. F9 could practically start Paris service tomorrow if they had the aircraft.

...and I wouldn't believe everything you hear. After all, my roomie just told me that he's the second coming of Jesus.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7707 times:

Quote:
It has a huge catchement area, is right smack dab in the middle of the country both in terms of population density and location, can serve every single market (north/south east/west) and great access to Mexico. The O&D population travel more then any other airport except for Las Vegas.

Add to that the fact that Denver had the foresight to plan for the future in their enormous expandable airport, and you have the recipe for a city that's more than just one or two airlines' hub - you have a forward-looking diversified economic powerhouse that can take its place with the major cities of the United States and the rest of the world.

If DEN can support a British Airways flight to London - a OneWorld partner in a Star Alliance city - then you've got a MAJOR city.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineSwmdal From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7657 times:

Former UAX CSA at Stapleton here...yes, it's true that DEN has a huge catchment area, but much of that area consists of some of the most thinly populated territory in the lower 48 states (Worland, WY, Scottsbluff, NE, etc.). The local and regional population simply can't compare with DFW, IAD, IAH, DTW, and many other airports that only manage to support a single hub operation.

Off the top of my head, the only US airport I can think of that successfully supports two major domestic hubs is ORD, and Denver ain't no Chicago. Unless you want to call ValueJet's--excuse me, AirTrans's--operation at ATL a "major hub." hehe


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7618 times:
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Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
...and I wouldn't believe everything you hear. After all, my roomie just told me that he's the second coming of Jesus.

I only believe anything when it happens. It would still be an interesting move.

But - I would worry about a roomie with a Messiah complex.  Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7594 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Now that would be an extremely interesting move. Even so, not LHR, perhaps, but there are a number of other desirable destinations.

Hmmm... Knowing your connections, care to speculate?  Wink

Quoting Swmdal (Reply 8):
yes, it's true that DEN has a huge catchment area, but much of that area consists of some of the most thinly populated territory in the lower 48 states

You haven't been out there in awhile, have you?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):

But - I would worry about a roomie with a Messiah complex.

Yeah come on, everyone knows I'm the real Jesus.


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7523 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Now that would be an extremely interesting move. Even so, not LHR, perhaps, but there are a number of other desirable destinations.

The speculation I heard most definitely did not include LHR. It is absolutely still speculation, and it's all a bit tied to seeing how they do with higher capacity aircraft, but they are certainly watching the openskies movement with a very careful eye.

Quoting Swmdal (Reply 8):
The local and regional population simply can't compare with DFW, IAD, IAH, DTW, and many other airports that only manage to support a single hub operation.

Which is why DEN is the fifth busiest airport in the nation, tenth in the world, and has almost always had two if not three carriers hubbing there simultaneously.


User currently offlineGARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1517 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7445 times:

Quoting Swmdal (Reply 8):
Off the top of my head, the only US airport I can think of that successfully supports two major domestic hubs is ORD, and Denver ain't no Chicago. Unless you want to call ValueJet's--excuse me, AirTrans's--operation at ATL a "major hub." hehe

Humm, there used to be this carrier called Eastern, they used to run one or two aircraft through ATL
along with DL, that would quantify two major hubs at one airport.



Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7416 times:

Quoting Graphic (Reply 10):
Hmmm... Knowing your connections, care to speculate?

I think Frontier's international expansion is heading more to the south, as in Mexico and perhaps beyond into Central America.

I'm not sure if Frontier will be doing much expansion in Canada. Lately it seems like Frontier is trying to pursue markets that are unserved or lightly served from DEN, which is why I have a feeling that we won't see any major expansion into Canada like they have done with Mexico. United and Air Canada together very well serve the Canada-Denver market.

I recently read a press release that stated Frontier plans to have international flights become 20% of its overall operations by 2009, so it does sound like Frontier has some interesting plans under wraps.

Quoting Graphic (Reply 10):
Yeah come on, everyone knows I'm the real Jesus.

Oh my, I can't believe I didn't realize it!  Wow!



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7412 times:
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Quoting Graphic (Reply 10):
Hmmm... Knowing your connections, care to speculate?  

Going right off-topic, I could write a very lengthy thesis on how it might be achieved, with many variables, but it would be for the University of Bologna.

Even if it is being discussed at Frontier, it is very early days, and beyond the limit of my sight.

I think Frontier will concentrate on a more localised international service first. Just as Guadalajara was a quantum leap in the Mexican service - away from the tourist driven resorts - so I think they need a small leap beyond Canada/Mexico.

There are been many hints about Costa Rica and "a Caribbean island", but they remain, for now, hints.

Generally - away from Frontier - I think any small US airline considering trans-Atlantic flights might do well with some lateral thinking.

I understand why the big US airlines are fixated on LHR - the old "why do people rob banks" syndrome - but Open Skies raises some issues. If Continental gets LHR, does that cannibalize their services to the smaller UK cities? I don't know.

For a small airline, I think there are other possibilities.

I remember that the original trans-Atlantic LCC - Icelandic - made a fortune flying Americans to a place few of them had heard of then. Luxembourg probably wouldn't work now, but back then it was a very successful case of lateral thinking.

I'm sure there are others.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJumboBumbo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6754 times:

Quoting Graphic (Reply 10):
care to speculate?

I have no connections... but who says that F9 has do the flying to the EU or LHR to take advantage of Open Skies?

Strategically, it may make more sense for them to enter into a "strategic partnership" like B6 and EI... the key is to make presentations to prospective airlines in the EU to demonstrate they can provide significant leverage in DEN for some airline who wants greater access to the middle US. Heck, given the nature and general non-overlap of B6 and F9's route structure, EI might even be a good candidate for F9 (assuming nothing in the EI/B6 agreement precludes this).


User currently offlineOrd From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6567 times:

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 12):
Humm, there used to be this carrier called Eastern, they used to run one or two aircraft through ATL
along with DL, that would quantify two major hubs at one airport.

The comment was with regard to one city successfully supporting two major hubs. Eastern was clearly not successful, as they are no longer around.


User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6261 times:

Quoting Ord (Reply 16):
Eastern was clearly not successful, as they are no longer around.

I disagree. They were successful for decades. Times changed with the economy and industry...and least of all, certain "people" in charge of...well...self-centered decisions.



As to the topic: Who will be successful? I tend to believe all three of those carriers will be.

1. WN is now playing on a more level field with some of their exclusive fuel contracts expiring.
2. WN is also going to be adding more destinations and flights to make DEN a major focus city.
2. F9's new fleet of Q400s and new destinations only strenghtens their pax #s at DEN, thus filling up more empty seats.
3. F9's new contract with (Republic is it?) with a fleet of Ejets will add capacity and destinations as well.
4. UA is hot in adding an Asian destination from DEN, and with all the restructuring, DEN is getting stronger in their favor.

And don't forget, DIA is going to expand:
1. The west side of Concouse A
2. The east side of Concourse B
3. The east side of Concourse C
4. The major 500+ room hotel at the airport is a "go."

Additionally, LH has started its second DAILY nonstop to Europe.



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineOrd From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6048 times:

Quoting DIA (Reply 17):
I disagree. They were successful for decades. Times changed with the economy and industry...and least of all, certain "people" in charge of...well...self-centered decisions.

I believe the original point about a city supporting two successful hub operations was in the context of deregulation. Prior to deregulation many cities had multiple hub operations, but post-deregulation only O'Hare has two big airline hubs (and that is mainly due to slot controls). In the deregulated environment Atlanta could not support both Delta and Eastern.


User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5969 times:

Quoting Ord (Reply 18):
but post-deregulation only O'Hare has two big airline hubs

Are we talking legacy carriers only? What of Jetblue and A^A at JFK? Or America West/US Airways and WN at both LAS and PHX?



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineSRT75 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5944 times:

Quoting DIA (Reply 17):
UA is hot in adding an Asian destination from DEN, and with all the restructuring, DEN is getting stronger in their favor.

Like where? UA has virtually NOTHING internationally from DEN, aside from Mexico. DEN-Europe stops in IAD or ORD. To get to Asia, I don't think there are any continuing flight numbers, you have to transfer in LAX or SFO.

I would suspect UA is of the opinion there is no sustainable O&D for DEN internationally, and it doesn't see good connecting opportiunities.

UA seems to treat DEN as a huge maintenace base (the LAX-DEN flight operates 737, 319, 320, 757, and 777 each day -- sounds like a maintence rotation to me).

By the way, DIA, I've heard several Denverites still refer to the airport as "DIA." Are you guys that nostalgic for the old airport?


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5891 times:

Quoting Ord (Reply 18):

I believe the original point about a city supporting two successful hub operations was in the context of deregulation. Prior to deregulation many cities had multiple hub operations, but post-deregulation only O'Hare has two big airline hubs (and that is mainly due to slot controls). In the deregulated environment Atlanta could not support both Delta and Eastern.

With the exception of a two year period after the new airport opened, Denver has maintained two hubs at the airport since well before deregulation.

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 20):

I would suspect UA is of the opinion there is no sustainable O&D for DEN internationally, and it doesn't see good connecting opportiunities.

Which is why the first announcement UA made post OpenSkies agreement was that they were looking at non-stop DEN to LHR.

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 20):

By the way, DIA, I've heard several Denverites still refer to the airport as "DIA." Are you guys that nostalgic for the old airport?

It's Denver International Airport. DIA. The old airport was Stapleton. The local media uses DIA for everything, and all locals say "I am going to DIA to pick someone up." Denver's code was never DIA, it was DVX before Stapleton closed, at which point the DEN designation moved over.


User currently offlineJetBluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2981 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5839 times:

Quoting DIA (Reply 19):
Are we talking legacy carriers only? What of Jetblue and A^A at JFK? Or America West/US Airways and WN at both LAS and PHX?

Good point. And not only do AA and B6 have major operations at JFK - but so does DL, which now refers to JFK as a "hub" as well. US/WN at PHX and LAS are two other great examples - and aren't those cities smaller than DEN also?

Keep in mind that DEN is the only airport serving the whole metropolitan area. Chicago has 2 - MDW and ORD - and is a hub or major operation for three airlines (UA/AA/WN). NYC has 3 - JFK, LGA, and EWR - and is a hub or major operation for four airlines (AA/B6/DL/CO) - or even 5 if you count the major presence of US at LGA. Don't forget about the Bay Area - SJC, SFO and OAK - and its dominance by UA and WN, not to mention AA's considerable presence - and Virgin America's impending service.

I think that DEN can certainly sustain major operations from UA/WN/F9. There are so many other examples of major cities that have even more airlines with major hubs or focus cities.

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineJmy007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 598 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5826 times:

Quoting Swmdal (Reply 8):
Former UAX CSA at Stapleton here...yes, it's true that DEN has a huge catchment area, but much of that area consists of some of the most thinly populated territory in the lower 48 states (Worland, WY, Scottsbluff, NE, etc.). The local and regional population simply can't compare with DFW, IAD, IAH, DTW, and many other airports that only manage to support a single hub operation.

I don't buy this at all. You have to consider Denver as part the Front Range of Colorado, which includes Boulder, Ft Collins, Loveland, Colorado Springs,Greely, on into Cheyenne, and down to Pueblo. This area has a population of somewhere over 4 million people, and that is expected boom to well over a million people in the next 15 years, if not more. That's before we take into account the larger area near the front range, to include Plains of Colorado, western Kansas,western Nebraska, Wyoming. and the mountain communities of Colorado. You could look at the front range as the new Bay Area.

Don't forget that the state's tourism/ski industry, which this ski season has been its busiest ever, in terms of skier days, and lodging nights, primarily funnels through DIA, weather it is passengers destination, or connecting to mountain resorts airports.

So to say that DIA is local and regional population can't compare with the likes of DFW, IAD, etc etc is in accurate. There is a reason why they built a massive airport, with ample room to grow, out in the Plaines of Colorado, not just to look pretty.... Smile



Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
User currently offlineJmy007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 598 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5815 times:

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 20):
By the way, DIA, I've heard several Denverites still refer to the airport as "DIA." Are you guys that nostalgic for the old airport?

Say what now?

The name of the current airport is Denver International Airport (DIA) The old one was always refered to as Stapelton.



Cookies are the Gateway pastry. They lead to Éclairs and Bear Claws.
25 Nosedive : Well, to be fair, some of the other busy airports have some nice operations as well: ATL: DL, FL ORD: AA, UA LAS: WN, US etc. D.C. Has 3 airports in
26 Nosedive : Or they do it on LH metal. I hope you're not serious. While we could go back in fourth about Denver's status compared to other cities. It still has s
27 Rampart : Excellent points, JetBluefan1. (and DIA previous). In the 2000 Census, Denver metro was ranked 19th (2.6 million, which does not include Colorado Spr
28 AirEMS : The only true way that I could see DEN adding a second hub airline would be by lowering their landing and gate costs...I know they already have and th
29 Rampart : For the 4 US airports busier than DEN Atlanta has 60% larger population with roughly twice the traffic Chicago has almost 3x population and almost tw
30 Graphic : All of which have nothing to do with EU/US open skies F9 has a baggage interline agreement with B6, so I can't see how any agreement they make would
31 Cubsrule : Where would they go internationally? We'll clearly see an LHR flight, but if they can't make LAX-CDG work, it seems that Denver would be a stretch al
32 Jmy007 : LAX-CDG compaired to DEN-LHR???? Apples and Oranges. A better example would be the short lived DEN-FRA service started at the same time as LH.
33 BA : I don't see anything about him saying that UA having a large international presence from DEN... UA treats DEN as a major domestic hub and has always
34 Cubsrule : Evidently I was unclear. After LHR, CDG would probably be the next logical international destination; given that UA and LH share transatlantic revenu
35 Graphic : Where did DEN-CDG ever come up?
36 Cubsrule : It's pretty much a given that UA will be starting DEN-LHR in the near future. Beyond that, CDG is the next logical European route. I don't think it w
37 BA : I agree with you that CDG is the next logical European route from DEN and that it is highly unlikely that UA will operate it, however, I don't think
38 BA : I agree with you that CDG is the next logical European route from DEN and that it is highly unlikely that UA will operate it, however, I don't think
39 Cubsrule : Quite true, but LAX has more O&D than any airport on the planet. Just like they would have to at DEN, UA sought to fill the flight with UA-loyal loca
40 BA : I think this is part of the problem, UA doesn't have that significant of a presence in LAX and thus connections are limited. Useful connections in LA
41 CO767FA : DEN is not just another "station" to WN and they have publicly stated that information (do a search at Rocky Mountain News and/or The Denver Post). U
42 DIA : Correct. I meant they are redesigning this area with better infrastructure and gates. I completely agree.
43 BA : WN has a very long way to go before it gets anywhere close to being in the same league as UA and F9. The latest figures show that United (including T
44 B752OS : Phoenix is much larger than Denver is, Phoenix has more than 1.4 million people while Denver has a little over 550,000. The same goes for the Metro a
45 CO767FA : Date of this information? Location where it can be found? Source? Please site the "growth" other than seasonal by other carriers? What other new carr
46 Flightopsguy : Huhh? UA's March load factor was 85%, reported by them as the highest in their history. The complaint stats that I saw had JBU with a higher complain
47 Post contains links and images Nosedive : God I love this about n00bs, look pal, if you want to mock other people for not having sources, have some of your own that we can see. I'll back BA u
48 Post contains links BA : Let me add a bit to NoseDive's excellent post. First of all, I got my figures from the pie chart on page 9 of this PDF, they are the end of 2006 figur
49 ScottB : To be fair, the year-end 2006 numbers are not the "latest figures." Going based on year-to-date market share numbers from DIA through February, WN ha
50 Mcofreak : WN is also maxed out on gate space in DEN. They are getting 5 gates soon (I think thats right????) and will be adding many flights after that.
51 Cubsrule : AF is not exactly opening new US stations at a breakneck rate...
52 Mariner : What gates? As in the other thread, there are no more available until DIA builds an additional number on C, and Southwest has not - so far - committe
53 Post contains images Graphic : I got to ABQ once in 5 hours by road
54 Rampart : I'm sure prior to WN's arrival, plenty of people in Providence and Manchester opted to use Boston simply for the wider choice of airlines. Stimulate
55 AirFrnt : Let's not kid ourselves. Westpac never made a profit at COS, and the majors who ran big metal here took a bath on the route at times. WN might have b
56 Post contains links Mariner : Just to add to that, here's a snippet from ATWonline archives: http://www.atwonline.com/news/other.html?issueDate=3/22/2007 "Chapter 11 bankruptcy re
57 Graphic : Uhh... Douglas County?
58 BA : I agree, so it might be a while. SEA was just recently announced which was a nice surprise. COS's case is unfortunate. Things looked really good for
59 Post contains links Nosedive : Ummm.... Aurora is included, as is Boulder. Take a look, yourself Colorado Springs For arguments sake, let's assume Colorado Springs is closer to 600
60 AirFrnt : The number I was objecting too was that Denver Metro was 550,000. The exact message was: Which is obviously a bogus number. The page you quoted said:
61 B752os : Which would be added to the metro area. The 550,000 is just the city of Denver. I did not quote that page. The page quoted questioned whether or not
62 Graphic : If you're throwing TUS to PHX, then why not go the other way as well. I'll bet many people drive the 150 odd miles from Cheyenne, or down the I-70 co
63 Rampart : WestPac was a classic example of a "Southwest Effect". Stimulate a market, and all airlines benefit. That WestPac overexpanded too rapidly, on top of
64 AirFrnt : Your argument here might have validity if they ever made a profit. They never did no matter what size they were. Therefore there is no empirical evid
65 Paddy78 : Hey all! Back on the boards and back in the business after an 18 month adventure in alternative transportation career paths (aka, what airliners do wh
66 Post contains links Nosedive : In terms of per captita, yes. See below. The argument was more about the size of the metro-areas. Even if you do add in Summit Co. Cheyenne, Casper,
67 Rampart : You emphasize my point, Nosedive. Half a million people to the south, and possibly another half million in the southern half of Denver metro, could s
68 Mariner : As noted in the Lynx Aviation thread, they have not yet received their AOC. Until that happens, they can't really announce anything. mariner
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