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Virgin 744 In Pod-strike At LGW?  
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12322 posts, RR: 35
Posted (7 years 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7753 times:

PPRUNE (Professional Pilots Rumour Network) is reporting that a Virgin 744 was seriously damaged in a heavy landed last week; indeed, the landing was sufficiently heavy that the No3 and No4 engine struck the runway. The AAIB (Britain's Air Accident Investigation Branch) is investigating and the crew has been suspended.

No info as to the aircraft involved or what route it was flying at the time ...

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 605 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7613 times:

I flew last year on a VS B744 LGW-MCO flight and the landing was one of the worst I've ever been on... and since I was in the right side in the rear of the aircraft behind the wing, the engines 3 & 4 came very close to hitting the ground, so I can easily see it happening again... The whole experience on VS wasn't as good as I had expected, and with the terrible approach and landing it made me not trust VS too much... plus, all the pax waited close to 2 hours at customs for our bags to come.... some kind of problem getting the bags out of the aircraft, they blamed it on the rain, I'm not sure... Anyways, maybe I had the same pilots that day and now they finally did it!! They succeeded in hitting the ground with their engines 3 & 4...


B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3695 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7594 times:
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A little information is a dangerous thing.

Any mention of the Wx conds at the time (strong X-winds)?

Suspending the crew is standard procedure whilst an incident, no matter how minor, is being investigated


User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2785 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7557 times:

Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):
indeed, the landing was sufficiently heavy that the No3 and No4 engine struck the runway.

Must remember that....No heavy landings or you might scrape a pod.  Yeah sure

Let's try to ignore the rumours which have already started and just wait for the truth, eh..?

Shamu



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8642 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7528 times:

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 2):
A little information is a dangerous thing.

Very true, pod scrapes are more common that people get to learn, and can happen without the crew knowing at all. The normal extent of the damage is the erosion of the drain masts and scraping the cowling, which is hardly "serious". It would require investigation, repair, or even precautionary replacement of some parts or all of the engine.

Seems like another beat up to bash a fine british company.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineSevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1146 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7232 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 1):
I flew last year on a VS B744 LGW-MCO flight and the landing was one of the worst I've ever been on... and since I was in the right side in the rear of the aircraft behind the wing, the engines 3 & 4 came very close to hitting the ground, so I can easily see it happening again... The whole experience on VS wasn't as good as I had expected, and with the terrible approach and landing it made me not trust VS too much... plus, all the pax waited close to 2 hours at customs for our bags to come.... some kind of problem getting the bags out of the aircraft, they blamed it on the rain, I'm not sure... Anyways, maybe I had the same pilots that day and now they finally did it!! They succeeded in hitting the ground with their engines 3 & 4...

So let me make sure I have read this correctly: You experienced one (allegedly) slightly unstable landing a year ago on the same airline, and since then those same flight deck crew have been flying around with the sole aim of achieving what they failed to do on your flight?.

I would like to offer a slightly more realistic scenario. Your aircraft made a controlled approach in rain with gusting crosswinds and poor visibility. It is thanks to the skill of the flight crew, and the advanced aircraft they were flying that aircraft are able to land perfectly safely in these kind of conditions.

Would it not seem logical that the problem with offloading and delivering the bags, and the approach and landing of the aircraft are linked by a ommon catalyst - the weather?

I have made countless landings on VS B744 and not once have I had any cause to mistrust the actions of the flight crew. It is easy to make throwaway comments on their profficiency sitting 50 rows back. Ultimately they have far more knowledge, experience and information at their disposal to enable them to make the right decisions.

Regards



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 719 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7127 times:

Hey Sevenheavy, don 't forget he then had to wait two hours for his bags !! OMG those pilots have a lot to answer for  Smile

User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 605 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6942 times:

Quoting Sevenheavy (Reply 5):
So let me make sure I have read this correctly: You experienced one (allegedly) slightly unstable landing a year ago on the same airline, and since then those same flight deck crew have been flying around with the sole aim of achieving what they failed to do on your flight?.

I would like to offer a slightly more realistic scenario. Your aircraft made a controlled approach in rain with gusting crosswinds and poor visibility. It is thanks to the skill of the flight crew, and the advanced aircraft they were flying that aircraft are able to land perfectly safely in these kind of conditions.

Would it not seem logical that the problem with offloading and delivering the bags, and the approach and landing of the aircraft are linked by a ommon catalyst - the weather?

I have made countless landings on VS B744 and not once have I had any cause to mistrust the actions of the flight crew. It is easy to make throwaway comments on their profficiency sitting 50 rows back. Ultimately they have far more knowledge, experience and information at their disposal to enable them to make the right decisions.

Thank you for your reply.... Let me clarify what I said a little bit... I was sharing a past experience with VS, which as a whole flying experience, it was below my expectations... That flight was actually my last leg of a RTW trip and having flown a lot of other airlines, my time with VS was one of the worse legs on the whole trip, I purposely choose to sit way in the back because I usually like to sit in the back on a B744 (unless I fly F or Business)... Now what made my trip unpleasant was the US-airline type of in-flight service (I had expected VS to be above the average service that a lot of US airlines have), but it failed short of AF, LA, BA, KL, KE to name a few... also the cabin interior was in very bad shape, and when on final approach (which was not raining btw, as the rain was done) the aircraft had a very bad landing... I know most people will defend the pilots, but such a terrible landing was either one of the worst of their career or like you said, the conditions outside were terrible (although like I said, the storm was already gone).... and because of that experience, I said it sarcastically (you should know better than that my friend) that maybe the crew finally did it.... again, I was just joking about it, although there are people here who probably would actually believe that, so forgive me for not making it clear that it was a sarcastic remark....

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 6):
Hey Sevenheavy, don 't forget he then had to wait two hours for his bags !! OMG those pilots have a lot to answer for

Just so you know, I had folks waiting for me, and they verified that the rain had stopped before we landed (about 2 hours before we finally met), so the blame on the rain seemed like a lie just to keep people from getting mad.... (since in customs you don't see anything outside).... anyways, who knows what happened, maybe the rain messed up some equipment or something, but MCO isn't exactly a desert to not know they get plenty of rain... anyways, I'm sorry VS didn't give me the experience I was expecting, and whether you like that or not is not my business...



B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6909 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 7):
but it failed short of AF, LA, BA, KL, KE

At least VS haven't managed to kill any of their passengers or had any hull losses through bad pilot decisions or any other reasons. Can the same be said of those other carriers ?.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
Very true, pod scrapes are more common that people get to learn, and can happen without the crew knowing at all.

 checkmark 

 

[Edited 2007-04-08 16:50:24]


"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineSevenHeavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1146 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6855 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 7):
Just so you know, I had folks waiting for me, and they verified that the rain had stopped before we landed (about 2 hours before we finally met), so the blame on the rain seemed like a lie just to keep people from getting mad.... (since in customs you don't see anything outside).... anyways, who knows what happened, maybe the rain messed up some equipment or something, but MCO isn't exactly a desert to not know they get plenty of rain... anyways, I'm sorry VS didn't give me the experience I was expecting, and whether you like that or not is not my business...

There is no issue with the service levels VS did or didn't provide. If you say you experienced poor customer service then I have no reason to doubt you, but that is for another thread.

Sacasm is one thing. Your original post implied a link between customer service and the flying abilities of the pilots, with no attempt to offer facts to back up your claims.

Anyway, back to the thread topic. As stated above, pod scrapes are more common than most people realise. Modern aircraft are designed with a degree of tolerance of such occurances and as such they are generally relatively minor events.

Far from being pilot error, the majority of pod scrapes are due to sudden shifts in wind direction and/or speed right at the critical point of touchdown. They are usually a bi-product of a hard one sided touchdown, where the flex of the wing means the pod scrapes the ground. ( rather than an unprovoked pod - ground contact )

Regards



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6683 times:

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 8):
At least VS haven't managed to kill any of their passengers or had any hull losses through bad pilot decisions or any other reasons. Can the same be said of those other carriers ?.

Little bit irrelevant, and also, which is rare for you, a really stupid comment  Yeah sure

You cannot base the safety of a carrier on whether they have lost lives in the past, and although I believe you rpobably weren't implying this, it really appears that way.

That said, I agree that his depictment of the VS pilots is woefully unfair and also full of silly remarks:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 1):
Anyways, maybe I had the same pilots that day and now they finally did it!! They succeeded in hitting the ground with their engines 3 & 4...



Quoting Atnight (Reply 1):
The whole experience on VS wasn't as good as I had expected, and with the terrible approach and landing it made me not trust VS too much


User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 54
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5835 times:

Quoting BA787 (Reply 10):
Little bit irrelevant, and also, which is rare for you, a really stupid comment

You cannot base the safety of a carrier on whether they have lost lives in the past, and although I believe you rpobably weren't implying this, it really appears that way.

Yes I agree it seems pretty stupid, thats what comes of trying to make a posting before rushing out of the house !.

I know what I meant to say, but putting it into words, it didn't come out as I meant it.

However, the point still stands that VS has not lost an a/c due to bad decisions made by the flight crew which not all the other airlines can say. So to imply that VS pilots are dangerous and were actually trying to slam the engines into the ground is pure stupidity.

As Sevenheavy said, a rapid change in wind direction at touchdown can easily cause a pod scrape. I would hazard a guess that most 747 operators have scraped a pod or 2 at one time or another.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineBALandorLivery From UK - England, joined Jan 2005, 360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5782 times:

Anything read off PPRUNE should be taken with a pinch of salt........

If it is true we will soon read about it in the AAIB bulletins.


User currently offlineLimaNiner From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5092 times:

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 6):
Hey Sevenheavy, don 't forget he then had to wait two hours for his bags !! OMG those pilots have a lot to answer for

Give 'em a break, it's really hard to unload those bags when you're drunk off your ass....  Wink


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5021 times:

Hard landings are normal, but is the problem that it took a week to be reported? Or is it just a week for the newspapers to find out?

Quoting Atnight (Reply 7):
maybe the rain messed up some equipment or something

MCO and TPA close the ramp during lightning and wait 15 minutes to reopen it. Even if the rain had passed, a storm a mile away on the runway can spark lightning, and the ramp is closed.

It's tough on the airlines, but it's a necessary step, as in central florida rampers were getting struck and killed by lightning.

Just be happy you weren't stuck on the plane during this time. At TPA I saw pax stuck in an ERJ for 2 hours while I was waiting for my baggage. Everyone from my flight had gone down to the baggage claim, but I knew there was nothing to do down there so didn't venture down until I saw our bags coming off. 2 hours. I watches a whole movie on my computer.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineVHTAE From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4795 times:

If this is true which aircraft was involved?

Regards VH-TAE.


User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4650 times:

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 11):

Thought so Big grin.

I have many posts like that, while in a rush, some of which have caused some right arguments on here until I came back and said what I meant to say, then they all looked daft Big grin


User currently offlineB757capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4454 times:

Where were the pictures of this event>?


The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
User currently offlineVgnAtl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1502 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4413 times:

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 13):
Give 'em a break, it's really hard to unload those bags when you're drunk off your ass....

I see you trying to add a little bit of humor to link two VS situations together... but let me remind you that the pilot in the previous thread had his name cleared and was prooven to not be under the influence. Maybe it's time we give that a rest, eh?



Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4385 times:

One thing I forgot to add is that depending on the operators SOP's, will depend on what x-wind landing technique is used. IIRC from watching those superb Boeing x-wind landing videos posted sometime ago, and the resulting chat that accompanied it, it appeard that Boeing's preference is to crab the a/c right onto the runway when it will straighten itself up. However some operators and pilots prefer to kick it straight before touchdown which if there is a change in the wind direction, can and has actually lead to them over doing it and ending with the nose pointing the other way by which time it is too late - there is some debate on the correct method as some say that the latter method then makes the approach unstable at the most critical time.

If they then touchdown on one side of the main gear this then means that lift generated by the wing is reduced (also because that would be the wing out of the wind and shielded by the fuselage) and the weight transfers onto the wheels whilst the other wing is still in the air and generating lift, and as we have all seen, the wings on a 747 flex a fair bit on takeoff and landing during the weight transfer which can then result in a pod strike if the flight crew are not fast enough to catch it.

Have a look at the cross wind landing videos on fl350.com - there is a good example of an SQ 744 landing at ZRH kicking off at the last minute to straighten up (but without the over correction).

Quoting B757capt (Reply 17):
Where were the pictures of this event>?

I doubt if there will be any in the public domain. I doubt the spotters would be out at LGW when the VS flights arrive, especially with it being a bit dark still in mornings. I guess it would have to be one of those right place right time kind of shots as it would have been a split second blink and you'd miss it moment.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4354 times:

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Reply 18):
Maybe it's time we give that a rest, eh?

I agree. Although on my flight to LHR today two of the cabin crew were joking about it. I told them we were still over Canada and joked "feels like we've been going ages, maybe we're in reverse" to which the response was a giggled "pilot's probably drunk"

I'm guessing they were referencing the event.


User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4199 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 8):
At least VS haven't managed to kill any of their passengers or had any hull losses through bad pilot decisions or any other reasons. Can the same be said of those other carriers ?.

BA hasn't had a fatal accident in over 20 years - the 737 engine failure and fire @ MAN is the last one I can think of and that was British Airtours, a subsidiary... (the last fatal crash of a BA plane was the midair collision of a Trident and DC9 in the 1970s.) And when was Lan Chile's last crash? Either way, I get your point. VS is a very safe airline and one or two hard landings will do nothing to sway my opinion!



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineLimaNiner From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4190 times:

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Reply 18):
but let me remind you that the pilot in the previous thread had his name cleared and was prooven to not be under the influence.

That's the only reason I made the joke in the first place, but I can see how that might have been viewed as being in poor taste... Sorry!


User currently offlineCoolGuy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 414 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3998 times:

Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):
No info as to the aircraft involved or what route it was flying at the time ...

Any registration number yet for this aircraft?


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