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How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?  
User currently offlinePhishphan70 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 265 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2812 times:

hey all! i asked about this in another thread, but no one responded...and if this is posted somewhere else and someone could point me in the right direction, i'd be very thankful! but i am wondering how many 747LCF's we are going to see in Boeing's fleet to handle the rapid production of an aircraft? and is the LCF going to do all of the lifting for the 787, or will other airlines carry cargo for the production? i know JAL and a few other airlines have moved incomplete parts for the 787, but i am curious if this will continue durring production? thanks in advance!

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIAHcsr From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3462 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2792 times:
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IIRC three will be produced initially... at least one more to follow at some later point.  twocents   scratchchin 


Working very hard to Fly Right....
User currently offlinePhishphan70 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2719 times:

Quoting IAHcsr (Reply 1):
IIRC three will be produced initially... at least one more to follow at some later point.

so this leads me to believe Boeing intends on moving all of the cargo for the 787 on four aircraft. for a company that said it should have atleast ten planes done every month, this seems like a small number to me. do you know any more info about comercial companies carrying cargo for the 78?


User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5947 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2632 times:
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There are four planned with one additional as optional, I believe. Boeing has also chosen to use an AN-124 from Volga-Dnepr on an ad-hoc basis as a stop-gap...in case something goes wrong.

User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3425 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2597 times:

The initial order was for 3. 2 more were planned for "if needed" but no official updates on them. My guess is they will have to build the 4th soon, but I have not heard of them getting a 744 passenger frame to do so.

I sometimes wonder if they will not try to just use the least they can till the 748 is in production and then send one or two of those over for conversion since the 737RS program will likely need a couple...


User currently offlineIAHcsr From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3462 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2583 times:
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Quoting Phishphan70 (Reply 2):
do you know any more info about commercial companies carrying cargo for the 78?

 sorry  no .. What you see is all I got... However, I'm certain other members will be providing more info soon...  biggrin 



Working very hard to Fly Right....
User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

Boeong recently said they'd use four 744 LCFs.

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
Boeing has also chosen to use an AN-124 from Volga-Dnepr on an ad-hoc basis as a stop-gap...in case something goes wrong.

Yeah, and I'm not sure about that one. I'd imagine they could move smaller parts, but the fuse sections would fit, would they?



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User currently offlinePhishphan70 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2446 times:

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
Wedgetail737



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
XT6Wagon



Quoting IAHcsr (Reply 5):
IAHcsr



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 6):
MCIGuy

thanks for all the info guys!!!

Phish


User currently offlineTrevD From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 336 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2364 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
The initial order was for 3. 2 more were planned for "if needed" but no official updates on them. My guess is they will have to build the 4th soon, but I have not heard of them getting a 744 passenger frame to do so.

I sometimes wonder if they will not try to just use the least they can till the 748 is in production and then send one or two of those over for conversion since the 737RS program will likely need a couple...

As an update, Boeing has already committed the 4th aircraft to the program and have already purchased the aircraft from MAS.

The first one was a ex-Air China a/c they took in trade (sister-ship to the VIP a/c flown by Saudi investor prince al-wahleed), the next 2 were bought from China Airlines with one already converted. Understand Boeing has an option on another a/c from MAS for a potential 5th LCF. At the rate the 787 is selling, they very well may need it !!


User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2243 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2346 times:

Quoting Phishphan70 (Reply 2):
so this leads me to believe Boeing intends on moving all of the cargo for the 787 on four aircraft. for a company that said it should have atleast ten planes done every month, this seems like a small number to me.

Wings = RJGG - KPAE
S43, S45 = RJGG - KCHS
S44, S46 = LIBG - KCHS
S47, S48 = KCHS - KPAE (probably two of these per flight)
S43-46 = KCHS - KPAE
S41 = KIAB - KPAE (probably two of these per flight)
Horizontal Stab = Italy - KPAE (not sure if this one has to use an LCF, anybody know?)

So the lower bound is ~6 round trips or 12 LCF movements per 787 frame. Assume conservatively 1 movement per day for each LCF. That's 30 movements / month x 4 LCF's = 120 movements per month, or 10 frames / month.

Four LCF's is a number that checks out pretty well, on the back of a napkin at least.

(edit: corrected KPAE for KBFI, oops)

[Edited 2007-04-09 08:41:20]

User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3425 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2287 times:

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 9):
Four LCF's is a number that checks out pretty well, on the back of a napkin at least.

I think when full production hits they will likely be able to save some movements by sending 2 complete ship sets of wings in one trip.

I don't know what else they will do to create slack, since the originally plan was to have one LCF be idle (IE spare) for most the month. They I guess were expecting more MX than a normal cargo 747, and they wanted to make very sure there was one laying around to pick up the slack if one needed to be taken out of service for whatever reason.

Clearly they can't run them all at 100% 12 months out of the year.


User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5724 posts, RR: 44
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2278 times:
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Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 10):
They I guess were expecting more MX than a normal cargo 747, and they wanted to make very sure there was one laying around to pick up the slack if one needed to be taken out of service for whatever reason.

Not sure they will be that much more MX intensive than a normal 744F but if you are operating a normal freighter and have issues there are lots of people to call to take up the slack.
If you are operating LCF and one goes down you can't just call Polar or someone and get another one in a few hours.

Cheers



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinePhishphan70 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2267 times:

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 9):
Wings = RJGG - KPAE
S43, S45 = RJGG - KCHS
S44, S46 = LIBG - KCHS
S47, S48 = KCHS - KPAE (probably two of these per flight)
S43-46 = KCHS - KPAE
S41 = KIAB - KPAE (probably two of these per flight)
Horizontal Stab = Italy - KPAE (not sure if this one has to use an LCF, anybody know?)

So the lower bound is ~6 round trips or 12 LCF movements per 787 frame. Assume conservatively 1 movement per day for each LCF. That's 30 movements / month x 4 LCF's = 120 movements per month, or 10 frames / month.

Four LCF's is a number that checks out pretty well, on the back of a napkin at least.

checks out with me, makes me think that some guys at boeing did the same kind of math or something... Wink

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 11):
If you are operating LCF and one goes down you can't just call Polar or someone and get another one in a few hours.

in reply 3 in this thread, it says boeing has choses a AN-124 just incase...but that still doesn't seem like an attractive option for boeing to need to use everytime a plane has a machanical delay, or goes into matinance for a day, i think we'll see some more LCF's as time goes on


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3425 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2219 times:

Quoting Phishphan70 (Reply 12):
in reply 3 in this thread, it says boeing has choses a AN-124 just incase...but that still doesn't seem like an attractive option for boeing to need to use everytime a plane has a machanical delay, or goes into matinance for a day, i think we'll see some more LCF's as time goes on

I'm quite sure the AN124 CAN'T take barrel sections.

Now the beluga might depending on how much bigger the shipping structure around the barrels is... but dunno if Airbus would rent one out... lol.

Basicly it very much pays to have a LCF sitting around doing nothing "just incase" since the penalties for delays is high enough that it quickly pays off if it avoids having to pay off a couple of late planes a year.


User currently offlineBrendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2203 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 13):
I'm quite sure the AN124 CAN'T take barrel sections.

Correct, the internal height of the cargo compartment is lower than the height of the barrels.


User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2243 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 10):
I think when full production hits they will likely be able to save some movements by sending 2 complete ship sets of wings in one trip.

I doubt it. The wings are pretty thick at the root, and they are the heaviest pieces carried by the LCF.


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