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DL To Add New Routes Out Of BOS  
User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9576 times:

http://www.boston.com/business/ticker/2007/04/delta_launches.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/070409/116999.html

Looks like BTV, ABE and ISP to start with.

ABE - 2x Daily starting July 15 (move to 3 daily August 20)

ISP- 3 X Daily

BVT - 1 x Daily, 1 Sun-Fri

Also, a 3rd daily ALB flight.

[Edited 2007-04-09 19:28:29]

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaDAWG From United States of America, joined May 2006, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9514 times:

Break it down, build it back up! The story of DL and BOS.


GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9467 times:

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 1):
Break it down, build it back up! The story of DL and BOS.

Despite the DL-issued press release, these markets are pro-rate codeshare markets. Big Sky is the at-risk party here. They make all the market decisions, as well as schedules and local market pricing.


User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9455 times:

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 1):
Break it down, build it back up! The story of DL and BOS.

That's a good point, I hope they do not back themselves in a corner giving up gates then realizing they need more gates.


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9443 times:

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 3):

That's a good point, I hope they do not back themselves in a corner giving up gates then realizing they need more gates.

Again, this is Big Sky's expansion, not Delta's.


User currently offlineDL777LAX From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 521 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9435 times:

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 1):
Break it down, build it back up! The story of DL and BOS.

...and LAX, and JFK.

its a shame too. DL could be kicking butt right now out of all three cities had they not decided to break them down for Fort -lanta.

They had a great hub in LAX following the merger with WA, and even had flights to Asia. DL had a great trans-atlantic hub in JFK, but decided that it wanted to focus domestically in ATL instead, so it sent its 763s from FRA and BRU and other profiting stations in Europe to routes like ATL-SEA, ATL-SLC etc. And BOS, good ole' Boston. They build a massive, modern facility to, wait for it, pull its operations down by a significant amount. That facility wasn't cheap, they threw away money that they need NOW!

DL777LAX



Blindly following anything is bad, unless of course your blind and your following a guide dog.
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9296 times:

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 1):
Break it down, build it back up! The story of DL and BOS.

More like the story of Delta and its CEOs. Grinstein is pretty much just bringing back what those spineless greedy bAstards Allen and Mullin took away from Delta.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8671 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9207 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 6):
Grinstein is pretty much just bringing back what those spineless greedy bAstards Allen and Mullin took away from Delta.

Hopefully he doesn't pull out and realises DL has potential in BOS.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineImapilotaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9060 times:

Big Sky's deal is, I believe, a Pro-Rate contract, not a fee per ASM based system. This means that Big Sky must make it work on its own merit. As anyone that has dealt with small airlines knows, true pro-rate deals only work when you get a good mix of local and connect traffic. You will never make these markets work if you have a 80-90% connect market. Connect average fares, especially considering most of the traffic will be leisure to Florida, will yield $35-$55 per passenger. On a 150 mile leg (.83 block hour), the cost would be roughly $900. So they would need to sell 100% of the seats at $55 to breakeven.

Here's the big catch, the number of Destinations out of BOS for DL are quite limited when you consider almost all of the markets that Big Sky will be serving already have service via other DLC carriers to JFK, CVG, etc. CVG is 3x the size of BOS's operation. Also, in almost all cases except for Maine and some Canadian Points, you will be going backwards to go forward. ABE-BOS-MCO seems a bit odd. Hell anywhere from ABE-BOS connecting is an odd routing. And I can assure you the traffic is not there right now to support 2x ABE-BOS on local traffic only.

The other major problem is the local market, or lack there of. There used to be local flights to Boston from most of these markets 5-6 years ago, but now adays, they are non-existant. How quickly will people come back and fly to Boston? Im not sure of that answer. Boston is not the O&D magnet that Chicago or New York are.

On a completely side note, does anyone find it a little odd that a carrier from Montana now has completely seperate operations in:

BIL
CVG (At some point this summer)
MDW
BOS

They currently have 10 1900s. They just bought 10 more from Commutair. Simple questions are:

1. Where are they getting the crews from? Mesa, Pinnacle, SkyWest, everyone cant find crews.
2. How do you grow your operation by 100%-125% in 7 months and not self-implode?
3. How do you have 4 seperate operations with 4 seperate maintenance bases for only 20 aircraft and not have rediculous Mx expenses?
4. Along the same lines, how do you have a spare in each system without having a rediculous amount of wasted expenses. The risk of having a bird strike and losing a line of flying from one of these hubs for a day or two is huge.


User currently offlineRolo987 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8970 times:

DL will be competing with CO on the ABE-BOS route. Should be interesting to see what happens.

User currently offlineRolo987 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8925 times:

Quoting Rolo987 (Reply 9):
DL will be competing with CO on the ABE-BOS route.

I take that back. Commutair operated AVP-ABE-BOS also with B1900s for a while but they must have recently discontinued it.


User currently offlineHVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8925 times:

They will, however, be competing with US on the ISP-BOS route.

I find it odd that DL won't be doing any BOS-ACK, or even to HYA and MVY. I thought ACK was a sure thing when they announced the deal with Big Sky.


User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3412 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8911 times:

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 8):
Hell anywhere from ABE-BOS connecting is an odd routing.

ISP & ABE-BOS to:

BGR
YFC
YHZ
YQB
BTV*

and any other Skyteam European nonstops are the only routes that don't seem 'directionally challenged.'

*BTV is not too bad since anything southbound or trans-Atlantic makes sense. The extreme westbound itineraries originating in BTV seem better suited via JFK.


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8708 times:

Again....

These markets are "Delta" markets in name only. These are Big Sky markets. Big Sky reaps all the rewards and takes all the risks.

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 8):
Here's the big catch, the number of Destinations out of BOS for DL are quite limited when you consider almost all of the markets that Big Sky will be serving already have service via other DLC carriers to JFK, CVG, etc. CVG is 3x the size of BOS's operation. Also, in almost all cases except for Maine and some Canadian Points, you will be going backwards to go forward. ABE-BOS-MCO seems a bit odd. Hell anywhere from ABE-BOS connecting is an odd routing. And I can assure you the traffic is not there right now to support 2x ABE-BOS on local traffic only.

The other major problem is the local market, or lack there of. There used to be local flights to Boston from most of these markets 5-6 years ago, but now adays, they are non-existant. How quickly will people come back and fly to Boston? Im not sure of that answer. Boston is not the O&D magnet that Chicago or New York are.

You are very correct in that Big Sky will be relying on the local markets. However all these markets are either DL or CO replacement (ABE, for example) or are markets that have historically had decent service. There is built-in demand in all of them.

One of the reasons that there is little local traffic in some of these markets anymore is that they have most recently been operated under ASM-buy deals where the major partner is looking for flow traffic and perhaps neglects the local market in terms of pricing and inventory management. I know this to be the case in a few of these markets.

Big Sky gets to set local fares which will allow it to find the sweet spot in terms of revenue. I think some of the local market sizes will increase significantly. This doesn't work for Big Sky if they don't.


User currently offlineBy738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2296 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8654 times:

No sign of any DL international expansion from BOS ?

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8417 times:

Int'l expansion would most likely start w/ the 757s which won't be available until the summer of 2008. Doesn't even mean DL will do anything then but that is the first opportunity. Summer 08 service announcements usually come in late Oct or early Nov so you have a little time to wait.

Big Sky is the risk taker here but DL will get significant benefit from having a larger scope. Remember that DL like other network airlines use a number of inventory control methods to route traffic over its network based on the greatest benefit.


User currently offlineHighFlyer9790 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8362 times:

Will the DL mainline expand out of BOS again ever? they sold off 9 gates i believe at their new $500M terminal A, and i feel if massport would put customs in there, DL would go international. (that was the origional plan) any chnaces of that?


121
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8272 times:

I suspect DL has incentives in its new contract w/ Massport to add flights, esp. int'l ones. I don't know whether Massport will give DL an FIS but I suspect DL will add int'l flights one way or the other. DL will clearly be more aggressive if they had an inhouse FIS facility.

User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6558 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8256 times:

I'd like to see DL jump in BOS-MSY since AA has yet to resume the route. They'd do well in that market.

User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4106 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8231 times:

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 4):
Again, this is Big Sky's expansion, not Delta's.

Not one ounce of empathy for an airline that trumpets its relationship with affiliates when it's beneficial to do so, and does its best to hide that relationship also when it's beneficial to do so. Talk about playing both ends against the middle. Not to pick specifically on Delta; they all play these reindeer games.

Chris


User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8180 times:
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Everybody talks about getting FIS at terminal A at Logan... where would it go? My understanding is that despite the very early plans, terminal A was not built with FIS facilities, space or gate capabilities. Correct me if I am wrong. If Massport relented on its stand for international flights in and out of Treminal A, where would FIS go and how would the gates be transformed into international arrival gates?

User currently offlineFloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2010 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8137 times:

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 8):
1. Where are they getting the crews from? Mesa, Pinnacle, SkyWest, everyone cant find crews.

Big Sky hires a lot of crews directly out of Rocky Mountain College's flight program. I would imagine that they will start offering those pilots the opportunity to go to the Boston domicile.

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 8):
On a completely side note, does anyone find it a little odd that a carrier from Montana now has completely seperate operations in:

On the surface it looks odd, but Big Sky has a lot of experience with this. In tha late nineties, Big Sky had a focus city at DFW, and served a bunch of routes down there in Oklahoma, New Mexico, etc. It wasn't until near the end of that operation that they actually connected it to the main operation in Billings via Denver.

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 8):
you will be going backwards to go forward

A lot of passengers won't mind backtracking on some of these very short flights. It's the longer ones that become a problem.


One quick note about Big Sky. Having grown up around their operation a lot (my family has significant ties to the company), they have a bad habit of expanding, starting a whole bunch of new routes, finding out they underperform initially, and pulling the plug rather quickly. It has happened quite a bit on the western end of things. Not to say that they will do that here, because they are trying hard to improve in that area, but don't be surprised if some of these flights go away rather quickly.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineFlyboy1108 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8119 times:

Quoting Rolo987 (Reply 10):
I take that back. Commutair operated AVP-ABE-BOS also with B1900s for a while but they must have recently discontinued it.

CO pulled out back at the end of March. I haven't seen one of their B1900's there for about a week and a half.

ncb



"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3262 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8013 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 19):

Not one ounce of empathy for an airline that trumpets its relationship with affiliates when it's beneficial to do so, and does its best to hide that relationship also when it's beneficial to do so. Talk about playing both ends against the middle. Not to pick specifically on Delta; they all play these reindeer games.

What the heck are you talking about? Reindeer games?

I don't see how Delta is trying to "hide that relationship". Delta has done nothing publicly but support this service as it's own. The press release comes from Delta and identifies the service in no way differently than it's purchased capacity. The B1900's will be painted in the new Delta livery and customers will get all the benefits and services that all other Delta and Delta Connection customers receive. The customer will not have any clue that Big Sky is at risk, as opposed to Delta.

This arrangement is simply a different sort of arrangement than Delta typically has with its Delta Connection carriers. The only other similar arrangement DL currently has is the EM2 operation in SLC. Continental has the same sort of deal with Gulfstream. UA does the same with Colgan. There are other instances as well, but this sort of pro-rate arrangement is indeed much more rare than the ASM-buy model.

There is nothing bad for anyone here. Simply two businesses trying to develop a mutually beneficial relationship that also happens to benefit some consumers.

What's the problem?


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4106 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7199 times:

You can be absolutely sure that if anything negative happened with this service...late or canceled flights, lost luggage, whatever...that Delta would be instantaneous in distancing themselves from the 'affiliate.' They would trot out the tired, old cliches like, 'Well, they are only a business affiliate for Delta and an independent company. We have no responsibility or control over problems that occur.' But just like you say, there's 'DELTA' plastered all over the press release giving the 'impression' that it's THEIR service. That is what I mean by cozying up to the relationship when it is beneficial to do so, but you can be SURE that this 'cozy relationship' would go out the door if something negative happens. The finger-pointing would begin as Delta says it's 'Their' problem (meaning the affiliate). Stupid reindeer games.

25 Tsnamm : I guess you never watched "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer"...I believe ChrisNH is using it as a euphemism...
26 BN727 : Outside of codeshare expansion plans it appears that Delta flies whatever Jetblue flies when it comes to adding new service.. I don't see Jetblue exp
27 Jetlanta : Please, of course I know what reindeer games are. I just thought his comment was pointless.
28 Jetlanta : Well perhaps you are correct. Who really knows until it happens. Glad to have you bring it up though, since it is so relevant to the conversation. It
29 DAL767400ER : Pray tell then, when did JetBlue announce flights from JFK to Pisa and Bukarest, or from Atlanta to Dubai and Seoul?
30 BN727 : What part of europe out of "Boston" did you not get?
31 DAL767400ER : Where in that over-generalised comment does it say "Boston"?
32 PAHS200 : I'm happy to see ABE getting more routes
33 ChrisNH : Simply because you made a point in response #4 to say this: "Again, this is Big Sky's expansion, not Delta's." My reply to that is, 'Wait a minute! I
34 Jetlanta : But my point is that you are confusing what I said with what Delta says. The Big Sky comment is mine, and it is true. This is a pro-rate agreement wh
35 MEACEDAR : SOME MORE INTERNATIONAL ROUTES WOULD BE NICE!!!!!!!!1 I wonder if they possibly start up BOS-HKG BOS-NRT BOS-IST BOS-MAD
36 Chrisk : BOS-HKG -- check back in a few hundred years BOS-NRT -- not if but when BOS-IST -- not impossible but pretty unlikely BOS-MAD -- starting in a few we
37 B752OS : I would not put a BOS-HKG route as that remote. BOS has a tone of daily traffic to Asia. NRT is sure to be a route that BOS has non-stop within the n
38 LH423 : The cargo ops that were announced at the same time as the pax ops have already started. Thrice weekly on a Tradewinds 747, via ANC (I believe). Wheth
39 SLCUT2777 : Does BOS-YVR seem out of the the realm of possibility? Does AC offer this route? Or do they have to go via YYZ?
40 Post contains images LH423 : It was a daily A320 operated by Canadian Airlines until the merger. AC continued the route, eventually dropping it down to seasonal. I believe the la
41 Evan767 : The only European route I see Delta expanding to out of Boston is BOS-LGW and BOS-CDG, like they had a few years back with 763's.
42 BY738 : What about BOS-EDI to complement ATL
43 Evan767 : Highly unlikely IMO.
44 Silver764 : A little off subject... how is atl-edi doing? DL is always pushing deals on the route and makes me believe it's not doing well. I'm looking at going a
45 BY738 : Would seem a reasonable route. WIth GLA-BOS with Globespan, and a complementing EWR service at GLA and EDI- EDI could surely manage BOS and if DL are
46 ATLAaron : I may start a separate thread about this but speaking of BOS . . . I just found out today that I am flying there and back on Thursday April 12th from
47 Evan767 : Seriously, you'll see JFK-EDI before BOS.
48 Humberside : GSM's service is exactly why I feel EDI-BOS wouldnt work. The Scotland-BOS market isnt that big and GSM's new service will cover the Scotland-BOS mar
49 BY738 : Mmmm, I guess thats a long way off then, almost improbable- cant see them going against CO.
50 Jetlanta : How in the world did a thread about B1900D service evolve into BOS-International??? Why does that happen to EVERY BOS thread???
51 Evan767 : The thread title is, "DL To Add New Routes Out Of BOS," so people want to speculate some other new routes, in this case, those routes happen to be in
52 BY738 : Not sure JFK-GLA would be a goer but supppose could complement EDI-ATL. Would be interesting to see what CO would do, pull or compete...? Back to BOS
53 B752OS : Of course JFK would see EDI before BOS.....I don't really think anyone could question that. DL has tried and failed with BOS-LGW. Boston-London is a
54 Post contains images HighFlyer9790 : {ROTFL} BOS- Asia market would be string, not more than a few years away. IST probably wont happen. aaaahhhh...BOS NEEDS MORE INTERNATIONAL SERVICE!!
55 Post contains images HighFlyer9790 : BOS- Asia market would be string, not more than a few years away. IST probably wont happen. aaaahhhh...BOS NEEDS MORE INTERNATIONAL SERVICE!! Masspor
56 LH423 : BOS-Asia is a definite. As been said, when, not if. But I think HKG would be a huge stretch. Considering HKG can only be supported out of the hubs an
57 Post contains images HighFlyer9790 : if massport could get their behinds moving on airport expansion *cough* terminal E *cough* this, as well as other int'l routes could have already ope
58 SLCUT2777 : Which is why DL should perhaps look at pouncing on this one if they can come up with an available 738. Many of the connecting passengers on the SLC-Y
59 LH423 : Well, the good thing about Asian flights is that they would most likely come and go outside of the peak afternoon rush. If you look at JFK-NRT, most
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