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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows  
User currently offlineTonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1032 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11678 times:

A.net

I was just wondering if that dim button on the 787 window will be standard or optional? Also, how does that work? If you guys don't know what I'm talking about, visit the Boeing 787 site.

Thanks,
Tony

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11657 times:

Quoting Tonytifao (Thread starter):
Also, how does that work?

By use of liquid crystal displays.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11632 times:

Last I checked: standard feature

User currently offlinePhoenixflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11518 times:

The windows work by applying an electrical force on the LCD which cause the molecules to line up and the glass becomes clear. As soon as the electrical force is removed then the molecules randomize and the window becomes translucent.

User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11490 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 1):
By use of liquid crystal displays.

That is impressive. How does the layering of windows work so that the outside temp and condensation don't kill conductivity and functionality of the liquid crystals?

Just an idea...wouldn't it be cool if you could make it so your window also could display data? Look out and it shows little signs of what cities you are flying over and their distance from the aircraft. Or when you fly trans-pac and you are over Alaska they identify the mountains, rivers and glaciers for you. Man that would totally rock.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineTonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1032 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11421 times:

This is some very cool technology, but do you think this could cause lots of maintenance if the LCD start to mafunction and break?

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11416 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
How does the layering of windows work so that the outside temp and condensation don't kill conductivity and functionality of the liquid crystals?

The electro-chromatic filter will be placed between the window glass and the safety glass.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):

Just an idea...wouldn't it be cool if you could make it so your window also could display data?

It would be very cool, but many many orders of magnitude beyond the capability of an electro-chromatic dimming system. The window dimmers are simply displaying a uniform, solid color under the command of a relativly simple control mechanism. To display information on the screen, you are basically talking about a Heads-Up Display (HUD) at every single seat row...

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 5):
This is some very cool technology, but do you think this could cause lots of maintenance if the LCD start to mafunction and break?

The objective is actually a maintenance reduction since the system has virtually no moving parts. If the system does prove buggy, I wouldn't be surprised to see Boeing go back to conventional window shades.

[Edited 2007-04-11 06:46:32]

User currently offlineRwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2392 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11315 times:
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Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
Just an idea...wouldn't it be cool if you could make it so your window also could display data? Look out and it shows little signs of what cities you are flying over and their distance from the aircraft. Or when you fly trans-pac and you are over Alaska they identify the mountains, rivers and glaciers for you. Man that would totally rock

Yes it would - a personal HUD in each window seat.

Unfortunately the dimmer in question is going to be a single very large monochrome "pixel" covering the whole window (it might actually be several large segments). The color LCD on your laptop has millions of individual LCD shutters (three for each pixel), each of which is separately addressed and driven by the display hardware.


User currently offlineWestJetYQQ From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2987 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11201 times:

Hey, If any of y'all go to Boeing's Future of Flight Museum, the mock up of the 787 fuselage is rather disappointing. The windows are very large, like the ones on the real aircraft, but the tint doesn't work, the seats are arranged like in a ski lounge rather than in an airplane and you can even sit in them. I was not impressed. I'm sure the crystal tinting systems in the real plane will be well working, but don't bother with the ones in the mock-up!  Wink

Cheers
Carson



Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10988 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
The objective is actually a maintenance reduction since the system has virtually no moving parts. If the system does prove buggy, I wouldn't be surprised to see Boeing go back to conventional window shades.

These simple LCDs don't tend to break. I've seen 25 year old LCD pocket calculators, for example, still work despite age and wear. And LCD based timers/lap clocks at tracks and pools, despite being in humid environments, also seem to work forever.

These aren't like the LCDs you use in computer monitors, which are more complex.

But I'd ask QF mechanics if they have trouble with the ones they have in the lavs of their 744s. They use the same technology. In that use, they "open" when you unlock the door, and "shut" when you lock it, though there's also a manual button to "open" it when you are inside.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1308 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10948 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
And LCD based timers/lap clocks at tracks and pools, despite being in humid environments, also seem to work forever.

Some of these older technologies are in LED not LCD. This is by the way also a technology with a new future.



There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
User currently offlineGeo772 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10322 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
But I'd ask QF mechanics if they have trouble with the ones they have in the lavs of their 744s. They use the same technology. In that use, they "open" when you unlock the door, and "shut" when you lock it, though there's also a manual button to "open" it when you are inside.

I may not be QF, but BA has an LCD window in one of the first toilets on the 744s. Although it had a few problems early on it has proven to be very reliable in service.

I would expect the system on the 787 to be extremely reliable from the outset.



Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
User currently offlineEburon From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9182 times:

Quoting Phoenixflyer (Reply 3):
The windows work by applying an electrical force on the LCD which cause the molecules to line up and the glass becomes clear. As soon as the electrical force is removed then the molecules randomize and the window becomes translucent.

If the default is to have electrical power keep the window clear, what happens if power is lost (ie an accident) where safety crews would need to look inside? Could it be the other way around (no power = clear window)?


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8860 times:

Quoting Phoenixflyer (Reply 3):
The windows work by applying an electrical force on the LCD which cause the molecules to line up and the glass becomes clear. As soon as the electrical force is removed then the molecules randomize and the window becomes translucent.



Quoting Eburon (Reply 12):
If the default is to have electrical power keep the window clear, what happens if power is lost (ie an accident) where safety crews would need to look inside? Could it be the other way around (no power = clear window)?

From the aPPG web site:

Electrochomic technology uses electricity to DARKEN an electrically conductive medium between two layers of glass. Turning off the electricity BLEACHES, or LIGHTENS the medium.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8728 times:

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 10):
Some of these older technologies are in LED not LCD. This is by the way also a technology with a new future.

Dude, I know the difference between an LED (a LIGHT) and an LCD. I am talking about the LCD ones. They aren't as common anymore.

Tracks and swimming pools often used large LCD timers, no backlight, for training because they are low power and other technology at the time was problematic (unreliable lights, or wobbly mechanical clocks). They remain on 24/7 in many facilities. I've not seen one fail myself. In scoreboards they often used iridescent additive to the liquid to give it a green tint especially under the lighting at pools (gas discharge and flourescents, mostly), but many were just straight dark grey which is harder to read.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8582 times:

Had a talk to a Boeing marketing rep and he confirmed the failure mode is 'open'. Question is what happens in case the electrochromic shade fails early into the flight? Would the cabin crew issue sunshade stickers to comfort/protect adjacent passengers?

The showpiece in Boeing's pavillon at Paris Airshow in 2005 had quit functioning only a few hours into the show.  duck 


User currently offlineJetboyTWA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 389 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7961 times:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Lockheed L-1011 have a similar window-shade feature when it first rolled out in the 1970s?

Ryan


User currently offlineMptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6800 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
That is impressive. How does the layering of windows work so that the outside temp and condensation don't kill conductivity and functionality of the liquid crystals?

An electrical current is applied to "polarize" the LCD which is trapped between 2 layers of the glass. Some polarization need just the current to switch as opposed to continuous power.

I did a light-gun design which used something called "lightvalve" which had 3 layers of dyed Liquid crystal (red and green). When red is agitated, it non-aligns, and makes that layer clear at the same time green is non-alined so the cof the lightvalve is green. The opposite makes the color red. When both are aligned, color is clear, and when both are mis-aligned the color is black (ie no light seen). This light gun was designed to be used in control towers with close to a million candlepower intensity focused within 3 degrees (be able to be seen 2 miles away). The cool thing was it had no moving parts, but it was unworkable because the red dye available 5 years ago was not within the FAA mandated color spectrum. Anyway, thought someone may be interested....


User currently offlineType-Rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5881 times:

Yes, the L-1011 did have this feature, but it used different technology.
How the L-1011 windows worked was there was a piece of polarized glass between the window and the interior glass. When you turned the knob, it turned the polarized filter either fully "in synch" with the interior pane (open) or 180 degrees out of synch (closed). Polarization is the feature used in sunglasses to remove glare, like you see on top of water during the daytime.
This system didn't last long. Within a few years all were replaced with window shades. I flew on EA's L-1011 a few weeks after it entered service, and I was amazed by how the windows worked. With all the features that plane had, no wonder they called it "The Most Advanced Jetliner In The Sky".


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5791 times:

Will the aircraft still have proper shades? I hope so.

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5721 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 19):
Will the aircraft still have proper shades? I hope so.

For the time being, there will be no shade. What difference does it make? The electro-chromatic filters will turn completely opaque if desired.


User currently offlineAlexPorter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5260 times:

One issue I can think of is when a 787 needs to be stored outside, either short-term (i.e. pre-delivery) or long-term (i.e. the desert). Currently, window shades are usually closed when an aircraft is stored. But since stored aircraft aren't using electricity, wouldn't the 787 windows be clear? I'd imagine that they'd have to use a black plastic wrap or something and tape it down the row of windows if they didn't want the cabin bleached in the sun during storage.

User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5162 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 20):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 19):
Will the aircraft still have proper shades? I hope so.

For the time being, there will be no shade. What difference does it make? The electro-chromatic filters will turn completely opaque if desired.

There are times on a plane when you dont want light coming through the window at all, when you want to sleep!


User currently offlineBoeingfixer From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4829 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 22):
There are times on a plane when you dont want light coming through the window at all, when you want to sleep!

http://www.dictionary.net/opaque

Not to worry, the LCD dimmed windows will completely block the light.

Cheers,

John



Cheers, John YYC
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4714 times:

There is a bar in New York City that has bathroom doors that utilize this technology.... its called Bar 89, its on Mercer.  Smile

NS


25 HughesAirwest : I was just at Boeing's Future of Flight Museum last week and the window did work. It was a little slower than I expected it did work an I am impresse
26 DeltaAVL : Yeah it is! I went there over Christmas and it seemed like everything in that museum was pretty much made of plastic. That 747 tail was fairly impres
27 Glareskin : I didn't question your knowledge, DUDE. I was merely pointing out that both LED and LCD are older technologies with a lot of new applications. Althou
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