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EK A350 Audit A350 Closes Gap On B787  
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4162 posts, RR: 89
Posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 23840 times:
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COMMUNITY MANAGER

Mr Clark of Emirates, has spoken of their initial impression of the A350-XWB after sending an Audit Team to Toulouse;

By Massoud A. Derhally

April 11 (Bloomberg) -- Airbus SAS may secure a 100-plane order, valued at $24 billion at list prices, for its newest twin-aisle model from Emirates after developing a wider body and more efficient wing, the Middle Eastern airline said.

''There was a canyon'' between the Boeing Co. 787 and the Airbus A350, President Tim Clark said in an interview yesterday after reviewing the plane's design at the planemaker's Toulouse, France base. ''That gap has closed. Airbus listened.''


That said, he still states the decision will be hard Choosing between the two planes will be difficult ''because they both do brilliant jobs.''


[END - Fair use excerpt http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...conews&tkr=EAD:FP&sid=aIcZoNE0nreY

Mr Clark also goes on to state that Emirates is ''reassessing'' their fleet requirements over the next 10 years. I understand we quite often hear from Mr Clark but he speaks of several models and leaves some questions,

- If, in their view the A350 has closed the gap on the 787, does this reverse previous talk that they will not order this year?

- If they go with the A350 do they roll their A330 fleet on an interim basis?

- He also states that they are assessing the B747-8I but a decision is not expected soon

Regards, PanAm_DC10


Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
302 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 23829 times:

Wow this is good news for Airbus , a EK order would be the break through for the 35X .

Boeing would be really silly not building the 7810 ..


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 23809 times:

I think we have gotten exctited over Mr Clarks jive talkin' too many times. Quit talking and show us the money Clark!

User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8546 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 23700 times:
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Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
I think we have gotten exctited over Mr Clarks jive talkin' too many times. Quit talking and show us the money Clark!

- I totally agree!!

That said, the plane must be looking good or these comments would not have been made, that said, it coulb be a tactic to get a better price from Boeing??



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 23677 times:
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I should bloody well hope the A350XWB has closed the gap!

I wonder if Clark is beginning to doubt EK can support double-digit annual growth for the next two decades and is starting to evaluate whether or not a next-generation fleet composed solely of 300+ seat planes is the most economically prudent one to fly.

In other words, might he be starting to feel that the 787-8 and 787-9 (and even 747-8I on the upper end, though I remain very skeptical about EK taking it) might not be too small, after all?

[Edited 2007-04-11 14:26:53]

User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23654 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
Quit talking and show us the money Clark!

Well, since for once he clearly isn't talking with an 'imminent' big order from his company in the back of his mind and all the bargaining that goes with it, I think his comments should be read for what they are: an honest observation by somebody who has been given the facts, the means and the skills to compare the 787 to the A350XWB in detail.

I think the A350XWB couldn't get a better review than this one from the main future 787/A350XWB customer: The A350XWB is on a par with the 787.

And it seems analysts worldwide start to share the view too:

"Boeing had a nice run where they were the only game in town (thus outselling Airbus last year), but they knew it wouldn't last."

Knowing EK's addiction for LARGE and LONG RANGE, and the fact the A350XWB is said to be more optimized for its larger and longer range versions than the 787, I'd say the A350-900 and especially the A350-1000 may have just won the preference of EK over the 787-9 and the not yet clearly defined 787-10....

Also, noteworthy are the very kind words in which Mr Clark talks about Airbus and the A380 in particular:
''I think it's going to be a real world beater,'' Clark said. ''There's not going to be a lot that's going to touch it.''


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23567 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 5):
I think the A350XWB couldn't get a better review than this one from the main future 787/A350XWB customer: The A350XWB is on a par with the 787.

One thing that strikes me about this is that it seems the A350 does have impressive specs established (even if they are not public), despite the claims to the contrary that we read on a.net. What else would they be auditing if it had not?

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 5):
"Boeing had a nice run where they were the only game in town (thus outselling Airbus last year), but they knew it wouldn't last."

Its a huge market (something like 5 or 6 thousand frames). I think Airbus would be better off starting with the right plane a few hundred frames later than Boeing than being stuck selling the wrong plane for 20 years (the old A350).

[Edited 2007-04-11 14:41:40]

User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23515 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 6):
One think that strikes me about this is that it seems the A350 does have impressive specs established (even if they are not public), despite the claims to the contrary that we read on a.net. What else would they be auditing if it had not?

Wasn't there a news story a couple of weeks back that Airbus had shown BA specs for the A358 and A359 with only the 1000 incomplete.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23461 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 5):
I think the A350XWB couldn't get a better review than this one from the main future 787/A350XWB customer: The A350XWB is on a par with the 787.

Wasn't John Leahy quoted a few months back as saying, "no one waits years for a 'me too' airplane"? If the A350XWB is "on par" with the 787, what incentive would there be waiting? IIRC, Leahy was promising that the A350XWB would exceed the performance of the 787.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23407 times:

I reckon that this might be building into a very good year for the XWB, let's see what Paris and Moscow airshows bring!

User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23407 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 7):
Wasn't there a news story a couple of weeks back that Airbus had shown BA specs for the A358 and A359 with only the 1000 incomplete.

Something that interests me is the landing gear. I assume that the largest model would have to have triple axle bogies. Or perhaps all models have.


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23384 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 6):
One thing that strikes me about this is that it seems the A350 does have impressive specs established (even if they are not public), despite the claims to the contrary that we read on a.net.

I think you have just touched one of the A.net myths here:
i.e. that the A350XWB doesn't have a set of clear and well defined specifications.

Just because one hasn't read them in FI yet, doesn't mean the A350 doesn't have them...

In fact I am beginning to feel Airbus is holding back on a stream of A350 orders for Le Bourget which will knock out all the bashers with one upper cut (for a while, untill they find new things to pick about, like buy-back options, compansation deals, rumoured percentages of the price cuts etc etc....) Why?

-) the fact Airbus traditionally holds back order announcements for big events.

-) the fact Airbus hasn't announced much orders recently.

-) the fact 787 orders aren't really streaming in either like when Airbus still pushed the A350classic mid last year.

-) the fact airlines which have been given a detailed view of the A350XWB, are calling it on a par with the 787.

-) the impressively long list of A350classic commitments which are still pending...

Yep, all seems set for 2007 to become the year of the A350, like John Leahy said only a few weeks ago.

Just imagine what a knock out effect 'Le Bourget' would have:

-) hundreds of A350s sold
-) some additional A380 orders
-) the usual influx of A320 and A330(F) orders

and at the end of the year, Airbus sending back Boeing to the number 2 spot when it comes to sales figures...


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23321 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 11):
I am beginning to feel Airbus is holding back on a stream of A350 orders for Le Bourget which will knock out all the bashers with one upper cut

Well QR and I believe SU have already hinted at signing up at Orly. Those two alone would be over 100 frames.


User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3313 posts, RR: 39
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23321 times:

Could this be Clark trying to send a message to Boeing along the lines of... 'Build the 787-10 or else we will happily choose the A350XWB'?

Even if there is no order, this is still good news for the A350XWB  Smile



Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23274 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
If the A350XWB is "on par" with the 787, what incentive would there be waiting? IIRC, Leahy was promising that the A350XWB would exceed the performance of the 787.

Assuming Mr Clark is no idiot, he's likely to have compared 787 models of interest (the 787-9 and the 787-10) to the competing A350 models (A350-800 and A350-900) and apparently he has concluded the A350 indeed matches the 787.

That leaves ample room to play the Airbus' game of:
price
range
commonality
to which many have fallen in the past.

And then there is always the A350-1000 which is simply out of graps for any version of the 787 and will eat the 777 alive... the 777 which forms the backbone of EK's fleet.

A single platform which can successfully replace all of their A330s/A340s/777s, coming from the same manufacturer as the huge A380 fleet EK is building... I am beginning to start feeling just why Mr Clark may have clearly changed his view on Airbus and their A350.


User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 756 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23251 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
I think we have gotten exctited over Mr Clarks jive talkin' too many times. Quit talking and show us the money Clark!

Give them a bit of time - dont think I've met too many CFO's, boards of directors or financiers that part with $24B without a reasonable amount of due diligence. A fleet decision of that size and magnitude wont be rushed. The implications of getting it wrong can be somewhat severe.

Cheers,
StickShaker


User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23235 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 11):
In fact I am beginning to feel Airbus is holding back on a stream of A350 orders for Le Bourget which will knock out all the bashers with one upper cut

Lets have a go at guessing what they could be (with a percentage likelihood)

QR - 80 frames - 80%
SQ - 20 frames - 75%
SU - 22 Frames - 50%
BA - 25 frames - 50%
EK - 100 frames - 33 % l
AA - 100 frames - 1% Big grin

reconf of say 50 of the outstanding 90 (?) XNB orders would mean -40 to be factored in but we could be looking at net 100 announcements this summer!


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23184 times:
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Quoting EI321 (Reply 10):
Something that interests me is the landing gear. I assume that the largest model would have to have triple axle bogies. Or perhaps all models have.

Based on the MTOWs Airbus has been showing [220t/292t/320t] I expect it will need to be two three-axle bogies or three twin-axle (with the third being centerline).

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 13):
Could this be Clark trying to send a message to Boeing along the lines of... 'Build the 787-10 or else we will happily choose the A350XWB'?

The 787-10 will happen and Clark knows it. At the moment, he just wants more range then Boeing is willing to offer because it will take additional years and dollars to match the range goals Airbus has for the A350XWB-900.

The 777-200ER works for a great deal of airlines so the demand for a plane with equal range, but better payload and efficiency is probably stronger then a plane that can fly an additional 1000nm. That most 772ER operators have not rushed to the 772LR could be seen as support of that view.

So Boeing can get the 787-10 out in 2012 and then work on IGW versions of the entire family for an EIS around 2014-2016 which would also allow a 787-11 variant.


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 23036 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 16):
BA - 25 frames - 50%
EK - 100 frames - 33 % l

I thought both have said that the order will be late this yr or next yr. I think we will see several of the original commitments signed, including US perhaps. There potentially are other new A350/787 customers also, and Paris would be a good timing for the likes of Aer Lingus to announce an order (not nessessarily an airbus order though  Smile )


User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22967 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 14):
And then there is always the A350-1000 which is simply out of graps for any version of the 787 and will eat the 777 alive... the 777 which forms the backbone of EK's fleet.

Are they really going to be replacing their 777-300ERs in 2015? They just started taking delivery of those, the oldest ones will be 8 years old in 2015.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
The 787-10 will happen and Clark knows it.

It is happening, Boeing representatives have said it is a matter of when, not if. I think they will want to take lessons learned from the initial 787-8 and apply it to future variants. There is no need to rush since there is nothing that Airbus can offer that can beat the 777's payload, range, and economics until 2013. If they EIS the -10 in the 2013-2014 range, that'll be right in line or slightly after the A359. By then Boeing will have a very mature platform and an assembly line that is running at full speed.

I don't see Boeing putting the -10 into service before the A350, there is really no point. The 777s aren't the aircraft that need to be replaced, the A300s and 767s are. It is better for Boeing to use all of their production slots to meet this need then to possibly surrender sales to the A330.


BTW it is good to see Airbus finally got it right with the A350, Paris is going to be very interesting this year.


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22878 times:

Quoting NorCal (Reply 20):
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 14):
And then there is always the A350-1000 which is simply out of graps for any version of the 787 and will eat the 777 alive... the 777 which forms the backbone of EK's fleet.

Are they really going to be replacing their 777-300ERs in 2015? They just started taking delivery of those, the oldest ones will be 8 years old in 2015.

They could replace the 777-300ERs last, after the A340/A330/772, A350-1000 delivery does not have to start at EK in 2015. And anyway, EK dont seem to keep their aircraft for very long.


User currently offlineMrComet From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 550 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22636 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
IIRC, Leahy was promising that the A350XWB would exceed the performance of the 787.

Leahy is a worldclass salesman, no question. Part of his goal is to get these kind of pronouncements. It benefits both EK and Airbus to say these kind of things.

However, I think one needs to look dispassionately at these issues. Leahy is usually wrong especially on this topic. He said every variation of the A350 would beat the 787. None have. Airbus also has a very questionable history of delivering on their promises both in schedule and performance. The A380 and the lawwsuits against the A346 are the latest examples. Boeing exceeded the stated performance on every version of the 777.

While it is good to have a competitive A350, the fact remains the 787 doesn't directly compete against the A350. There are no numbers to directly compare. The A350 wins for 400 passengers, the 787 on 280 passengers. When Boeing comes out with the 787-1000, then there will be a fight.

Clark is self serving and Airbus has a propensity to over spin. I think we need to wait and let dispassionate analysts like Teal Group evaluate.



The dude abides
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22571 times:

Quoting MrComet (Reply 21):
I think we need to wait and let dispassionate analysts like Teal Group evaluate.

We know what Aboufilla will say before he touches his keyboard. 'Eh, yeah, its a nice plane but if we divide x by y its still not as good as the 787''


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22556 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 11):
I think you have just touched one of the A.net myths here:
i.e. that the A350XWB doesn't have a set of clear and well defined specifications.

What, exactly, would anyone expect Airbus to say about their plane at this point? No, it's still not as good as the 787? Somehow I don't think so - more like "Anything Boeing can do, we can do better - sign here:_______________"


User currently offlineAutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1596 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22539 times:

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 13):
Could this be Clark trying to send a message to Boeing along the lines of... 'Build the 787-10 or else we will happily choose the A350XWB'?

Couldn't agree more, was just to make pressure, IMO EK will go for the 787.

Behind the scenes i believe Clark is still mad at Airbus and lost his confidence if Airbus can deliver on time. Besides the 787 will be at the time a mature plane. However that doesn't mean the A350XWB will not be as good as the 787.
In terms of range and size the A350 may even fit better to EK.

Also we shouldnt forget even Clark was for a audit at Toulouse its sure, most important specs have been told to him, but not all as the design freeze wont be done before mid 2008. If GE will jump aboard the A350 will sure play a major role for the success of the A350 and we still dont know that.

I could only imagine EK ordering the A350 if Boeing will not build the 787-10 in a for EK reasonable time(or insufficient range) and Airbus will give them a very good price plus a hell of a contract in case of delays.



“Faliure is not an option.”
25 Coa747 : Just a reminder but the XWB's fuselage is narrower than the 777. So I don't see how it will be a 777 killer cause it doesn't even have the same cross
26 Post contains images LifelinerOne : If I recall correctly BA said that they would receive information on the -1000 about two weeks ago. So, the -1000 is also known. Cheers!
27 Macc : I wouldnt be surprised to see EK with both 787s and 350s in the end. EK is not the airline who wants to be tied up with only one supplier.
28 EI321 : Marketing BS is the name of the game unfortunatly. I've yet to have my first 'dream' about sitting in a 17.2'' wide seat for 8 hours!
29 EI321 : I think they should. There would be many advantages of halfing the order 50/50, such as price competition & better delivery slots. Commonality argume
30 SparkingWave : So, if I understand correctly, the gap has been closed between the B787 and A350, but NOT surpassed. So, then what essentially is the difference betwe
31 Post contains images Glideslope : That's all it is. Trying to be the launch customer for the 787-10.
32 MetalInyoni : Will Emirates definately only buy the planes from one company. Its it not possible to divide the order at this stage and have the two - the smaller 78
33 EI321 : No point asking, all we have to go on are the projected figures on the respective manufacturers websites. Not true. Then why are they so vocal about
34 Glideslope : Right, just like operators were given honest facts, means, and skills for the 380? Based on the last 2 years I'm sure Mr. Clark has a grain of salt i
35 Post contains images RedFlyer : Hmmm...66 orders through the first quarter of the year is nothing to sneeze at. I bet Leahy would kill his own mother for that kind of sales numbers
36 Post contains images Legoguy : Thankfully this time, they are the words of Clark, an unbiased source, and not from Airbus. A plane doesn't need to have the same fuselage diameter t
37 EI321 : Definitly solid sales, but the 787 demand curve is slowing down as production order/delivery times get longer. The A350XWB demand will speed up as or
38 DAYflyer : Knowing Clark, I doubt it very much. Like I have said before, if he really wanted the 787-10 he could have ordered it months ago and been the launch
39 Post contains images Flysherwood : Folks, what is Mr. Clark going to say? "... the thing is a piece of s...!" What would that do to the price of 100 787's? Mr. Clark is doing what he ne
40 EI321 : In the very same sentence he is critical of the previous aircraft airbus was offering him. He either likes what he sees or he does not, and will act
41 Post contains images Flysherwood : No he won't. Not when the pricing of an airframe is still on the line.
42 DIA : Main future customer??? What about all the other major airlines of the world that will add up to hundreds of these two a/c? They aren't streaming bec
43 Post contains images Flysherwood : It is absolutely amazing that one comment from a loudmouth like Mr. Clark and all of a sudden the Airbus afficionados on A.net are ready to claim that
44 EI321 : As per your logic, 5 - 6 more years is a hell of a lot of time to get another 300 frames, if they are able to get 200 in one year.
45 Stitch : Yes, but Clark has said he wants range better then the 777-200ER and Boeing's latest statements say that is not going to happen as it would require t
46 WINGS : It is way to early for anyone to be counting chickens. The A350XWB still has a very long way to go to match what Boeing has achieved with the B787. J
47 Post contains images Flysherwood : . 5-6 years? You have way more faith in Airbus' ability to deliver an airframe from conception to EIS than their past record deserves.
48 Lehpron : That is the case for just about any subject. People think experiences are enough to assume the way things work. Very few people wonder anymore, it co
49 EI321 : Im still wondering will any of these go for the 787 instead, if the 787 lost the RFPs to the the older A350 aircraft.[Edited 2007-04-11 18:27:23]
50 Flysherwood : Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Alafco just buy the 787? SQ I believe has 20+ 787 on order as well?
51 Khobar : And where do you think Mr. Clark got his information?
52 EI321 : Yes, I was speaking about the old A350. The ALAFCO commitment for the A350 remains, and SQ never ordered the old version in the first place. Accordin
53 Dank : I believe that this is the issue with the -10. It reminds me a bit of the 748i in that Boeing has to decide which parameters will sell the most plane
54 AndesSMF : IMHO, they will find their future expected fleet requirements lower than expected. Way too many times. But what is the incentive of waiting so many y
55 Legoguy : An Audit team. I really don't think Airbus would pull the wool over Emirates eyes.
56 Jj : Don't forget that most of these orders have to be renegotiated now, as the whole plane has changed. I wouldn't count 270 commitments for the XWB... n
57 Post contains images Areopagus : Very good. And yet...
58 WINGS : Since when? Since when? As soon as the A350XWB has been announced/offered it has received the following orders/commitments. Pegasus x 2 (firm) Finnai
59 Post contains images Flysherwood : That is not competition. That is a SLAUGHTER!!!
60 ScottB : Actually...given that Airbus will deliver the first A350's at least five years later, this is rather faint praise indeed. To simply introduce a "me-t
61 Post contains images Hamlet69 : Yes, but that does not apply to the 787 vs. A350XWB scenario, for one very important and very clear reason: The A340-300 competes directly with it's
62 Post contains images Zvezda : A350 will be a 777 killer because it will have dramatically lower CASM in a smaller airliner with comparable or better range. That is exactly the set
63 Baroque : Yes, if I had been committing billions to something, I would consider "closed the gap" as being damned with faint praise. However, until more details
64 Jj : Exactly the point I was trying to make! The 787, save one version, is SMALLER than the A350XWB. And not smaller in terms of, say... 20 seats smaller.
65 Aminobwana : Quoting Reply 23, KHOBAR, posted Wed Apr 11 KHOBAR writes: What, exactly, would anyone expect Airbus to say about their plane at this point? No, it's
66 DAYflyer : In Theory but not proven.
67 EKSkycargo370 : Lets face it,EK are targeting world domination,and personally I think they will,other carriers should lead by this example,especially some of the US c
68 Flying-Tiger : This is BS in its purest form. The largest composite structures build until recently were the A3X0 tails up to the A380 tail (to be specific: manufca
69 WINGS : From my understanding the B787-800 will have a seating capacity between 210-250. I dont know if this figures are for both 8 and 9 abreast seating in
70 Post contains links and images 787engineer : But these aren't these built-up structures? Anyone can bolt together pieces of composites to make a big piece. As far as I know Airbus is lacking exp
71 Aerofan : is it just me.....? if the A350 is coming out several years well after the B787, shouldn't its performance be beyond, rather than just par...?
72 Post contains links Lumberton : http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/12/business/airbus.php Here's a quote from Herr Enders last year: Leahy was also quoted using the " 'me too' plan
73 Post contains links Lumberton : BTW, new Randy blog on the issue. He has something to say about the timing of the 787 vs A350. http://boeingblogs.com/randy/archives/2007/04/market_ti
74 Khobar : The EK audit team went to...Airbus. They looked at information provided by...Airbus They listened to people from...Airbus They poked around facilitie
75 Glideslope : Your being optimistic. I would go with "Very Thin and Transparent."
76 Atmx2000 : I would be very surprised if there is a decision before the 4th quarter of this year. The Airbus model is 6 years away, and Boeing is starting flight
77 AVinutso : This sounds amazingly close to what he stated about the 748i - kind of a "Its our way or the highway" sort of thing. I think his quote should read "Th
78 B707Stu : Of course he's going to go with Airbus, Emirates will keep some Boeing but will be mostly Airbus by the time this is all said and done, I don't think
79 EI321 : Who the hell were they gonna go to, Boeing? Look at A350 information that Boeing gives them? So? Neither the 787 or A350XWB is the exact same size as
80 Atmx2000 : Actually, in recent years ME airlines have ordered more Boeings than just a few years before.
81 Atmx2000 : So why not just buy a 773ER if size doesn't matter? The last thing an airline should be doing is buying a bigger jet that is more expensive to buy an
82 Baroque : Oh well, mustn't grumble as the classic old British saying goes! Not sure how you get transparent, although it depends what you mean by transparent.
83 Post contains images Keesje : Many seem in denial Airbus sold hundreds of 330´s since the 787 was launched, many replacing 767´s.. they are just not mentioned / counted in anywh
84 Post contains images Flysherwood : He will need to get rid of an awfully large fleet of 777's to be an all Airbus fleet!
85 Post contains images Hamlet69 : Since program launch, Airbus has signed firm contracts for 212 A330's. So yes, by definition, I guess you could say this is "hundreds." Of those, onl
86 Post contains images DfwRevolution : Son, I don't know what 787 you have been watching! Boeing has sold 500+ 787 before they have even rolled-out the first aircraft, despite the FUD camp
87 Khobar : Now everyone, including you, are clear on the facts - the information came from Airbus and no one but Airbus. Thank you.
88 Legoguy : Errr your point being? Where else would they come from as EI321 pointed out? Are you trying to say that the EK audit can't do their job properly?
89 EI321 : Im just a bit confused here about what your saying. If an airline (any airline) wants to buy aircraft, where else would they go for information on th
90 Khobar : Point being: The source is Airbus.
91 Floridaflyboy : At this point, he couldn't because Boeing hasn't officially made the decision to launch the 787-10, and so they aren't taking orders for it at all at
92 Dank : I guarantee that if EK said that they were willing to order 100 of them now, Boeing would launch. Evidently there is no satisfying you. It's not as i
93 Floridaflyboy : Not true. Boeing has a much better record of delivering what they say they are going to deliver than Airbus does.
94 EI321 : Thats just one of those myths that gets passed from generation to generation of a.netters.
95 AndesSMF : Prove it before making such statements about Boeing. Let's all recall what Clark said. Nowhere is it stated that the A350 is better. It is implied th
96 DfwRevolution : So the 773ER dramatically exceeding it's pre-EIS performance targets was a myth? The troubled EIS and performance short-falls of the early A346 were
97 Legoguy : Errr then the same applies to Boeing. However do you really think the Emirates Auditor's would fall into the supposed Airbus trap AGAIN? No, I don't.
98 Post contains images Dank : The product, in EK's case, would be delivered at or around the same time. The myth is that Boeing always overdelivers and Airbus always underdelivers
99 Floridaflyboy : Those were the exact examples I was going to use. It is simply not a myth. Not to say that the A350XWB won't deliver, but there is no history to indi
100 AndesSMF : No, but using your example, they have a very poor track record with some of their latest offerings, which includes the prior incarnations of the A350
101 2wingtips : I still have a feeling that no matter how many times Mr Clark tells us the order won't be split, there is a very good chance indeed that it will be sp
102 Kdeg00 : The answer to this question is probably based on the depreciation schedule they can use. That's one of the advantages that SQ has over US-based airli
103 Stitch : Let's all recall what Clark said. Nowhere is it stated that the A350 is better. It is implied that the A350 is at least comparable to the 787, nothin
104 Dank : No, I gave you a couple of examples, where one exceeds promises and the second one which indications aren't that the plane won't deliver what is prom
105 Post contains images Dank : Price, maybe? Of course, the fact that EK didn't just buy the 787 adds a bit of a wrinkle. The other side of the EK is using Airbus to lower Boeing's
106 MPDPilot : I would say that you are looking through European glasses. Which is fine I think that national pride is a good thing I would expect americans to supp
107 Dank : One rather disastorously late plane (the 380), doesn't exactly speak of a trend (and I would think that this would encourage Airbus to make sure they
108 Post contains images Legoguy : I would like to think that amoung A.netters, there are those who like both equally It's not impossible Airbus may have have learnt from previous mist
109 Post contains images Dank : say it isn't so? I think both manufacturers have done great things (and both have made mistakes). as a pax, i prefer the 32x a bit over the 737 (but
110 Khobar : EK's auditors only know what Airbus tells them one way or another. They have no means of producing independent data. If Airbus is mistaken it will sh
111 Halls120 : I've long stated my opinion that the A vs. B wars on Anet are mostly exercises of juvenile "mine is bigger than yours" chest pounding. Airbus makes p
112 Post contains images Legoguy : I really don't think the Emirates Audit team are stupid enough to let Airbus fool them. They are smart enough to see that Airbus have taken the necce
113 Post contains images Legoguy : I have never travelled on anything larger than a 757 so I can not comment on how Airbus compare to Boeing. I don't fly often so I'm an inexperienced
114 Halls120 : If I put a blindfold on the average family, had them board a B748 and told them it was an A380, took the seat pocket safety cards out of the seat bac
115 Post contains images Legoguy : We shall have to wait and see until it enters airline service to see the effects of loading and unloading. The way I see it, Concorde was famous and
116 Halls120 : I'm not referring to how long it takes to embark and deplane at the gate. I'm talking about the glut of 500+ people at immigration facilities that ar
117 Post contains images Legoguy : Can't be much worse than the current 747's. Im sure immigration will cope just fine as too will the passengers. Also these average family members may
118 Mpdpilot : I think I am being misunderstood. Just because the A380 is late and a little heavy, and the A346 wasn't exactly as it was supposed to be doesn't mean
119 Halls120 : IIRC, the A380 carries a few more passengers than the current 747. And if you think that immigration "copes just fine" with the aircraft currently in
120 BN727 : Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking going on at Airbus..."Dream on" as in "Dreamliner on" . A350 will roll out when? Not 2007, that's for sure..
121 MCIGuy : You're going to see more and more folks attempt to throw cold water on the 787 as roll out draws nearer. The order book speaks for itself and that's
122 MPDPilot : very well said I must say also very well put.
123 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : It is still over 7.5 months until 31 Dec. 2007. While I think you are correct with your guess on the A-380s, A-320s, and A-330Fs, The real major airl
124 Scouseflyer : Erm well actually, first flight is scheduled for 2012 (about 5 years) and EIS mid 2013 - just over 6 years.
125 Zvezda : Baseler also had something to say about the timing of the 777. He said the 777 is available now but one would have to wait 8 years for an A350. That'
126 Lumberton : Quite a disparity. Can anyone confirm EADS' latest pronouncement when the A350 is expected to enter into service?
127 Post contains links EI321 : First delivery in due mid 2013. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ear-of-early-production-a350s.html http://www.flightglobal.com/articles.../211
128 Post contains links Zeke : 800 - 2014 900 - 2013 1000 - 2015 page 24 from http://eads.net/xml/content/OF00000000400005/7/19/41508197.pdf Have a look at pages 21-23 to see why E
129 Danny : SQ signed their LoI in Farnborough where XWB was launched.
130 Aminobwana : referring to Flying-Tiger Reply 68, posted Thu Apr 12 2007 04:33:33 your local time (15 hours 27 minutes 40 secs ago) and read 6665 times: Referring t
131 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Randy Baseler from Boeing himself said that the B747-8i and the A380 aren't competing planes. So Leahy is right in Boeing's own view. Cheers!
132 EI321 : I think insulation was a lot to do with it. I think 40% (I thought it was 35?) refers to floor space, rather than seats. The 747 has smaller seats so
133 Lumberton : I see where Airbus is comparing the A358 with the 788. Shouldn't it be comparing it with the 789 instead? AFAIK, the 788 has no direct Airbus competi
134 Legoguy : We will have to wait until the aircrafts in service to make comments on how how stressful it will be for the passengers and workers involved with the
135 Halls120 : While airports have made gate improvements designed to make loading and unloading the A380 more bearable, I haven't heard of a single airport making
136 Legoguy : Notice the IF. Chances are their will be extra staff at security areas. I'm sure airports made great adjustments in the needed areas when the 747 ent
137 Stitch : It's not just that - it's check-in areas, curbside, gates, lounges, restaurants, shops, and all the other public spaces. And then you have parking an
138 Dougloid : I think it''s feckin' astounding that piece of non-information from the Clark and Leahy agitprop department can still get people into a state of coita
139 DeltaDC9 : Who said that? IS that quote from 1997? 66 in three months for a line that is sold out for years? That is a flood. Exactly, funny how a poster said "
140 Atmx2000 : If Airbus were really so confident about the A350XWB they would show per seat numbers comparing the A358XWB to the 787-9, given the latter is only sl
141 EI321 : Im pretty sure they have made these already. But what do you mean by actual seat numbers? CASM? Boeing hve claimed 20% lower cost than 'todays aircra
142 Halls120 : It isn't just staff that need to be increased. If you have 10 immigration windows in use, assigning 3 extra officers isn't going to do any good unles
143 Post contains images Legoguy : To be honest I have no idea what airports have done/plan to do when the A380 is in service, which is why I would prefer to wait until the aircraft is
144 Columba : I always thought that EK will go for the A350. It will be great to see them ordering some.
145 Atmx2000 : I don't think so. They have played this game of comparing the the 787-8 to A358/A358WB and the 787-9 to the A359/A359XWB for a long time now, despite
146 Post contains links Keesje : I thinks the floor space advantage of the A380 over the 744 was about 55%, useable floorspace 45% and for the latest adjusted 747 version about 35%.
147 Danny : I don't know any airline that offers 19,25 inch wide seats in economy (that would be XWB with 8 abreast according to the document). Sounds perfect fo
148 Post contains images Baroque : Well I totally agree with your conclusion, but totally disagree with the steps suggested to get there. Even if your average family did notice the eng
149 Brendows : Wrong Keesje (again I might add...) Standard seat config for the A388 is 555 seats in three classes (22F, 96J, 437Y with respectively 62", 40" and 32
150 BlueSky1976 : How about KLM, Air France, SAS, US Airways? Funny how it wasn't wrong for Boeing to be five years "behind" with 777 in respect to A340. A350XWB - if
151 Post contains links NorCal : Boeing now has 96 orders for the 787 in the first 4 months of 2007.....that A350 is really slowing it down......... http://active.boeing.com/commerci
152 BigJKU : Except that Boeing did something different from the 340 in buliding a big plane with just 2 engines. The A350 is not substantially different from a 7
153 Stitch : The trick is, there is unlikely to be any "quantum leaps" in technology ala the 777's engines (which allowed Boeing to build such a large twin). The
154 BlueSky1976 : It wasn't just the engines but also the ultralightweight (for sheer size) circular fuselage and the supercritical wing. What killed A340 was the sing
155 Stitch : That remains to be seen. Yes it does, but the 787 has already started to make her case, and done so quite convincingly. Not so the A350 and especiall
156 Halls120 : It does. Thing is, I don't recall a continuous stream of publicity from Boeing during those five years where they were behind Airbus saying "we have
157 Atmx2000 : The A358 is aimed at the same market the 787-9 is, which may overlap some on a range basis with the 777/A340, but not on a capacity basis. Airbus is
158 BlueSky1976 : A350XWB is about 9 months after launch. How many orders did 7E7 have at the same time period? Relatively speaking, about the same, give or take a few
159 BigJKU : The problem is what advances is the A350 going to make down this road? The fuselage will be anything but lighter if they use the panel route. The win
160 Atnight : That is very true and I'm very happy to see the 787 sell like hotcakes.... but you have to be a little careful in claiming superiority by those numbe
161 BigJKU : The question is what way. Materials- No likley Aerodynamics- Probably be about equal Weight- Certainly not if they use a metal frame Engines- Easily
162 RedFlyer : No one has said Airbus is "wrong" for being five years behind. (Other than they were wrong in not taking the 787 seriously at first, which is why the
163 BlueSky1976 : Thing is, I don't believe either manufacturer had such "media wh****" as Baseler and Leahy back then. Or Clark, as evidenced in this particular case.
164 BigJKU : The 767-400 was a mistake. The question is what capability will the 350 have the 787 won't? They will carry roughly equal amounts of cargo from the l
165 NorCal : I never tried to claim the 787 is superior, I was just pointing out that the A350 has not slowed down 787 sales as some have claimed in this thread
166 AutoThrust : Yes its is marketing spin, same marketing BS as Dreamliner. Remains to be seen. I'm pretty sure there will some enhancements until design freeze in 2
167 Stitch : The only advantage I can see the A350XWB has over the 787 is a bit more comfort in seat width at nine-abreast in Economy. The 787-10 will at least ma
168 Atnight : Alright, following your though, the A330 vs B767 are the same thing then.... both are a tube with wings and 2 engines... so really there's not an imp
169 BlueSky1976 : We will not know until the plane is flying. Airbus could firm up the configuration this year - I'm sure they are capable of it. What is interesting i
170 Post contains images Stitch : Yet that advantage goes both ways. As the 787 gains in-service data, Boeing will learn more and continue to improve the plane, just as they did with
171 Post contains images RedFlyer : No doubt there will be some enhancements. The question is, any enhancements of significance? Any enhancements that will make airlines prefer the A350
172 BigJKU : I admitted the 767-400 was a mistake. The 767 was also over a decade old when the first A330 came out. It did not match up in passengers carried and
173 Aminobwana : To Keesje Reply 148 Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 130): 1) "Boeing has no competition for the A380." -----------------------------------------------------
174 EI321 : The 467 figure does not translate in real world configurations. Look at the only airline that has ordered both aircraft, Lufthansa. They are fitting
175 Post contains images Flysherwood : Really? Lets see, A380, A350 v.1, A350 v.2, A350XWB. How are those myths? A380 is 2 years late and 6 tons over weight. A350v.1, all aluminum "... CFR
176 BlueSky1976 : And same goes for A350XWB. Keep in mind that A330 capability grew with time: it started as a medium-haul widebody and basically ended up being on the
177 Areopagus : A lot of the current 747's noise level comes from air conditioning and wind rush, the latter being louder over the wings. They will have to address t
178 Post contains images Stitch : Of course it will. And Boeing will use that data to design Y3. And then Airbus will use Y3's to design the Axxx. And so on and so on.
179 BigJKU : What I am still waiting to hear is the ways in which the A350 will make the 787 look like the A340 did against the 777. It seems like a very odd comp
180 Post contains links Keesje : I don´t think it was a mistake. It was launched just prior to 9-11. Potential buyers like AA and UA went into survival mode. Bad luck.. The A350-800
181 Post contains links and images RedFlyer : Hi Keesje! Google is a great tool... Forgeard, who at the 2004 Berlin Air Show in response to a question from FLUG REVUE had described the Boeing 787
182 BigJKU : A bit roomier I suppose depends much more on the layout chosen by the airline than anything else. More range is something to be seen. They are pretty
183 Atmx2000 : Why compare to the 787-8? The smallest A350XWB is closer to the 787-9 in size. While it is wider, it is shorter and has 3% less capacity. The OEW is
184 Post contains images Flysherwood : That's too funny! There is another thread going about Forgeard and it is amazing how people think he was a great CEO! So I wonder what he would say a
185 Baroque : A number of posts assume that the 350 engines will not be significantly ahead of the GENX and the Trent 1000s. As the Trent 1000 has been running for
186 BigJKU : This really depends on what people are willing to pay for I would think. From most reports we hear what you will get is simply a re-sized version of
187 Kaneporta1 : No, a lot of noise produced by an airplane comes from aerodynamics, and at the moment, current 747 models suffer from the noise produced around the "
188 BigJKU : The degree to which a plane will fit into a given airlines desires is not really what was being talked about, at least by me. Though if you ask me Bo
189 Popski87 : I agree. When Airbus launched the 350XWB, they knew that they had to compensate for its late entrance into the market by claiming it has better specs
190 Flysherwood : We are forgetting something here. Every available engineer is working on the solutions for the A380. The next thing is finances. Remember that there
191 Stitch : I personally see the new Trent XWB vis-a-vis the Trent 1000 to be similar to the GE90-9xB to the GE90-11xB. Same family, similar technologies, just s
192 Post contains links and images Zeke : If you look at say the latest 744ERs QF have and their A380s, the seat difference for the same route (MEL-LAX) is over 40%. The A380 noise level in t
193 Stitch : Thanks for the explanation.
194 Keesje : I have not seen it. Can you point it out or are you creating something to shoot on? About the late entrance into the 250-300 market. I think they hav
195 Post contains images Hamlet69 : All of which ordered the A330 before the 787 was ever launched, which was the (mis-)point that Keesje was trying to make. Regards, Hamlet69
196 Post contains links Dougloid : That's exactly what Mr. Patel of Kingfisher was saying in FI last week. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...raft-engines-playing-catch-up.html
197 Khobar : Which is interesting considering the hump is what gives the 747 improved aerodynamics over other aircraft. I would have thought better aerodynamics w
198 BigJKU : See below I am simply pointing out that the comparison between this situation, 350 vs 787, and the 777 vs 340 is not a valid one. The A350 will be a
199 Atmx2000 : Which begs the question why compare the A358 and A359 models to either of the current 787 models in their marketing materials at all? I have not yet
200 Zeke : Inside the 744 cockpit it is fairly noisy, the air goes supersonic just above the cockpit. I think you are thinking of the area rule, which was a par
201 Justloveplanes : Airbus has its work cut out to equal the B787 and surpassing it will be a real trick. A has a time pressure to deliver a competitive craft or else mis
202 Post contains images SCAT15F : That extra fuselage width and more floor space per passenger will simply, by the laws of physics, cut into casm (extra frontal area drag and extra we
203 Halls120 : I have no doubt that getting on board and leaving the A380 at the airports indicated above - where gate improvements have been made - will be bearabl
204 Glom : Who do you think is going to be behind these orders? We already know about QR and SU so they don't count.
205 Post contains images Zeke : The original 350 was the same cross section as the A300, the A350XWB is ovoid like the 787, they are not circular. If I recall correctly the OEW of t
206 Halls120 : But it is physically impossible at most airports for 4 787's to land at the same time. 2 A380's, maybe. So while the A380 might not increase the tota
207 Areopagus : The 787 will have more ground clearance for big engines than the 330, though. He didn't say it would devastate the 787. He said it would kill the 777
208 Zeke : To physically land you are correct, to have multiple large wide body aircraft reach gates at the same time, or within minutes of each other, very com
209 XT6Wagon : wrong, the A350 started out with normal A330 wings. It was one of the first things they changed as airlines pointed and laughed at the idea that a A3
210 Post contains links Zeke : I beg your pardon .... "The A350-800 and dash 900 are the same size as the A330-200 and dash 300. The differences are the new engines and a lighter a
211 Zvezda : As of Farnborough, the A350 was still aluminium. The switch to CFRP and the delay of EIS from 2012 to 2013 came in the autumn.
212 XT6Wagon : So that obviouse sharp crease in the diagram you provided is in error? Hmm As for the rest of it, please tell me which of the first 4 A350XNB version
213 Dank : I'm not sure what you are referring to as a sharp crease, but for both counts you could look at the relevant articles (which were linked in those two
214 Atmx2000 : I know what the original A350's cross section was. And while I haven't seen any declared public verification that it is ovoid, if the cross section i
215 2wingtips : Gee, what a surprise, Airbus material saying that the XWB is better than the 787! What have EK actually said? I don't recall them saying the XWB as b
216 Post contains links OldAeroGuy : We've been through this already in the Tech/Ops forum. A380 And 748i Drag Comparisons (by Astuteman Feb 23 2007 in Tech Ops) Re-lofting the 748I wing
217 Post contains links and images Zeke : My apologies, the Singapore Airlines press release says "Singapore Airlines Orders 20 Airbus A350 XWB-900s And 9 Airbus A380s", sorry for quoting the
218 2wingtips : Apologies accepted as you are clearly wrong. Show me where this order shows up on the Airbus orders page and I'll retract my comment. BTW, it's commo
219 Zeke : For the WING only, we did not discuss the overall aerodynamics, nor the low use of advanced materials or manufacturing techniques. As Randy said "In
220 2wingtips : Oh dear, what a mouthful for someone who is wrong! Give me the evidence on the Airbus orders page that SQ have ordered 20 A359XWBs. That's all I'm as
221 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : ...but the link which you provided still says "LoI"........so I'm not so sure why you think there sarcasm was needed, as you are just flat out incorr
222 Post contains images Baroque : Agreed it is not likely to be the CF6 to GE90 step, but the suggestions by other posters that the difference to the T1000 will be 1 to 2% might under
223 Post contains links 777ER : part 2 is here EK A350 Audit A350 Closes Gap On B787, Part 2 (by 777ER Apr 13 2007 in Civil Aviation)
224 XT6Wagon : The engines on a 737 leaving the line today are a far cry from the first 737NG thanks to upgrades over the time between. The improvements to the engi
225 Stitch : RR could be "looking forward" to what Y3 will need in terms of power, so they could be laying the groundwork with the Trent XWB for the "Trent Y3".
226 XT6Wagon : while it would be nice, I think that Boeing will be asking for a hell of alot more engine than the A350 will ever need. Say upper limit in the 140K l
227 Stitch : I believe Y3 will be driven by how good the A350XWB-1000 is and how good the 787-11 could be. I imagine we'll see two lengths - a 74m Y3-200 and an 80
228 DeltaDC9 : I do not believe that the 380 tail is a monolithic barrel is correct. The A400 wings are not relevant. by how much so and why? Which agrees with the
229 Post contains links OldAeroGuy : Once you've discussed the wing aerodynamics, the rest of the aerodynamics don't leave you much to talk about. As far as the low use of advanced mater
230 Dougloid : That's what my old crew chief called picking the fly shit out of pepper. Anyway t's the same uninformed babble we seem to get from the Airbus agitpro
231 Post contains images AutoThrust : Kaneporta1 works at Airbus he may know it better then you. Besides i doubt there will ever be a 787-11, wouldnt it have some penaltys in range or pay
232 Danny : 787-10 will already have payload / range penalty as it is planned as simple strech.[Edited 2007-04-13 16:26:54]
233 DIA : I would tend to think the demand for these super-stretch-67s will be strong when they start to enter freighter-life. No?
234 GRIVely : Dougloid, Anyone who can reprise the term "agitprop" and use it so effectively and entirely appropriately in a new context gets my Respected User rat
235 Khobar : Ah, the front end of the hump. Thanks for the clarification. Obviously it would be nice to have it quiet all-around, but from the passenger POV, does
236 XT6Wagon : No, the 767-300F is already at package freighter density, so the extra volume would be of no real benefit to most cargo companies. The fresh flower f
237 Post contains links and images Stitch : Based on reasoned speculation from existing datapoints, a 787-11 should carry close (if not more) passengers and more cargo (via available LD3 positi
238 XT6Wagon : I think they planned a very large increase in MTOW as IIRC it would have new wings and other extensive changes. Certainly if you toss on another 50 t
239 DeltaDC9 : He definitely knows how to respond to a polite post better than you! My recollection is that the tail is several large composite pieces fastened toge
240 AutoThrust : I'm very skeptical too they will achieve 25-30% better fuel burn, however if Boeing will go for the 787-11 they will have contradicted themselves.(i
241 Post contains images Stitch : True, but that would be because Airbus' new product encouraged them to. Just as the 787 encouraged Airbus to contradict themselves on the A330/A340 a
242 Flysherwood : This is what keeps innovation going in this industry. That is exactly why we need two manufacturers of large commercial aircraft. If Boeing was alone
243 Stitch : Airbus has a long and solid track record (again, some a.net commentary aside). Even if somehow Boeing "pulls of the trifekta" and smoothly launches b
244 Aminobwana : I am German-Venezelan, from a pure European family, over 70, a former Director from the largest German E-Konzern and therefore surly not anti-Europea
245 Post contains images Baroque : True, true, Stitch, however I wish I was as confident about the part on the A350XWB as the A330! However, there is also a fair back up position shoul
246 IC408 : I thought the audit was of the A380 program to see if they would really be able to deliver when they said they would? How do you audit an A350XWB prog
247 EI321 : That aircraft was not called A350, it was a re-engined A330 and was never actually launched. Then they launched the A350 (old) which I believe had wi
248 Post contains images AvObserver : "The A350 is bound to be less expensive than the 787, and Emirates, the largest Arab airline, may want to keep its fleet in balance between the two ma
249 Halls120 : Most of the A vs. B "commentary" on Anet is just another form of junior high school playground taunting. Only difference is, the participants are mos
250 Zvezda : Maybe, maybe not. Payload/range performance depends on several factors including MTOW, thrust, and fuel capacity. That's just Boeing marketing drivel
251 EI321 : It might be possible, but the wing will have to be changed. Im getting a feeling that we wont see the -10 as soon as we had hoped. Boeing would have
252 EI321 : I think the weak dollar is being over emphasised. Why? Because Boeing are buying a huge amount of 787 parts from overseas suppliers, including suppli
253 Aminobwana : Only to reinforce Arguments from other members:: Flights with hub in Dubai cannot compete distance-wise (i.e. price-wise) with any of following route
254 Post contains images Jacobin777 : While I agree with many things you stated....DXB isn't even remotely unstable.... ....try flying into DXB..its a contrast of people/race/culture to s
255 Aminobwana : Please note that I did not say that DXB is unstable, but that the region is !! A lot of persons do not even know what Qatar, Emirates, Dubai etc. is,
256 Stitch : It is unlikely we will see a 787 variant with an MTOW greater then the current wing's 640,000lb limit, so what will most likely happen is minor stren
257 Zvezda : Unless each engine were producing well above 100K lbs of thrust, a 640,000 lbs 787 would have poor takeoff performance with the present swept area. A
258 Joni : I haven't read all the recent B787 threads, but based on the ones I have read the weak dollar has hardly been mentioned. The dollar is an important f
259 Post contains images Rheinbote : Well, you take whatever data the papers provide and complement that with realistic assumptions where needed, based on fundamental knowledge. In cases
260 2wingtips : Promising! You're kidding. Fast selling jet before rollout in history is only promising for you? The dollar is a bonus for Boeing right now in terms
261 EI321 : Boeing and Airbus produce data that we just dont get to see at this stage. Some times this data is very accurate, some times not. The MD11 could not
262 Aminobwana : [quote=PanAm_DC10,reply=0]Rheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 630 posts, RR: 5 Reply 259, posted Sun Apr 15 2007 11:25:38 your local time (5 hou
263 Zvezda : Modelling and simulation are much, much more accurate now than when the A310 and MD11 were being developed.
264 Post contains images Dank : Yet it was ok for airlines to buy the 787 when no parts had been built (while comparing it to the then flying 330s and 767s)???? By that token, the s
265 Atmx2000 : I think they bring into service any 787 derivative as early as 2011. Boeing doesn't need 7 years of development time. What they can't do is bring int
266 Calags : I don't think it's so much the fact that both manufacturers have had to adjust their proposed airliners' specifications but that Airbus has had to re
267 Zeke : I think the motive is so the 777 keeps selling, as soon as more derivatives come onto the market, the 777 is dead. Doing what they are doing they are
268 Dank : I agree that Airbus didn't handle the whole 350 project as well as they should have (but they have had management shakeups, etc. at the same time whi
269 Baroque : That seems a fair point. You could even argue that at that stage Airbus was handicapped because it was all too easy to work out what the super 330 wo
270 Stitch : I am sure Boeing would like to keep pushing 772LRs and 773ERs for as long as possible, and I imagine Boeing is trying to gauge the waters on a 787-10
271 Dougloid : I guess you're in possession of some inside information that those of us who were there never heard about. Can you be more specific?
272 EI321 : Its well known.The MD11 did not live up to its performance claims. Just ask AA and SQ. MDD improved the aircraft in the 90s but by then it was too la
273 Lemurs : Plus the fact that operators who might be interested in that extra uplift already have HGW ER's in their fleets and are passing on the LR as incremen
274 USAF336TFS : This is a telling statement... Basically it says to me that he still considers the 787 and A350WXB direct competitors, while Airbus claims that the A
275 Post contains images Astuteman : You seem to imply a) that Airbus will promise anything to the airlines, irrespective of their ability to deliver it, or the financial (and political)
276 Aminobwana : [Astuteman From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2005, 2238 posts, RR: 51 Reply 275, posted Mon Apr 16 2007 08:15:12 your local time (53 secs ago)
277 EI321 : I dont really get this, your saying that Airbus is promising unique launch customer specifications to each airline that orders its aircraft? These ai
278 Post contains images Dank : This handicap was evident when Airbus made their statement about how little moving to a composite fuselage would have saved them on these original de
279 Post contains images Baroque : Dear Aminobwana Do you think you could figure out how to use the "Quote selected comment" button? It might help those of us like me whose attention sp
280 Flysherwood : I believe it was Mr. Gallois who stated that a major reason for the massive losses at Airbus last year was the weakened dollar vs. the Euro.
281 EI321 : Its a reason, but not the be all and end all.
282 Stitch : Last I heard her MTOW had been raised to 540,000lbs / 270t.
283 Flysherwood : Thank you. For once an Airbus afficionado is admitting that this was not the main reason. When the year end results were announced by Mr. Gallois, ma
284 EI321 : What context are you refering to? Fisherwood, its not an admittance. I always thought that the weak dollar was being over emphasised.
285 Post contains images Astuteman : Last I heard, 540 000 lb was 245t.................................................................. Regards
286 Stitch : As an Englishman, it is when you use a 2240lb "long ton". As an American, I use the 2000lb "short ton" which comes out to 270t. So I guess I need to
287 Post contains images Glideslope : Why illegal Govt loans with no payback requirements. STD operating procedure, until the WTO rules.
288 Post contains images Astuteman : I was using 2200lb which approximates to a metric tonne. In that way, The 480 000 lb 787-8 is a 218 t aircraft. The 507 000 lb A330 is a 230t aircraf
289 Post contains images Stitch : I'll just stick with pounds.
290 Flysherwood : Development costs involved in turning the latest iteration of the A350 into a non Aluminum plane. This was discussed in much detail when they changed
291 EI321 : Its no secret that theres nothing illegal about them. The terms were very clearly set out back in 1992 or whatever year it was. The old A350 was not
292 Post contains images Astuteman : I can live with that My worry is, that at my age, the pounds are starting to stick with me........... Regards
293 Post contains images EI321 : Hey Astuteman! Some day you lot are gonna be dragged kicking & screaming into euroland!
294 Keesje : I think Airbus might keep open Al-Li, Glare and FC as options for many parts of the A350. There are some choices made by Boeing (& passed point of no
295 Flysherwood : Well of course they are going to say that. What else can they say? Second generation? I wouldn't count on that being the case. Airbus needs to quit h
296 Aminobwana : Obviously, I am not saying such stupidity as you are assuming !!! I am puzzled that again I am misunderstood, I hope it is only because of my bad Eng
297 EI321 : Dont worry about Leahy, hes not designing the A350. I cant say that I feel there is much hyping coming from airbus about the A350 that is above the or
298 EI321 : I understand the points you are making, but I think you are being much too presumptious in thinking that Airbus is doing this. Their reputation in wi
299 Post contains images Flysherwood : And we will have between 5 to 7 years to find out.
300 Dougloid : B-b-but Sparky....you didn't answer the question which was not "Dougloid needs to ask some remote third person doesn't he?" and it wasn't "What does
301 Post contains images Baroque : This is true (or into Ausland) when the numbers in kg will be smaller but the effects more devastating. Hang on though, I know, you only use scruples
302 Post contains links 777ER : Since this thread is now taking a bit too long to load, here is part 2 EK A350 Audit, A350 Closes Gap On B787, Part 2 (by 777ER Apr 17 2007 in Civil A
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