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Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.  
User currently offlineYLWbased From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2006, 824 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 31087 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9AlGBXD_F4

i hv heard ATC that doesn't understand/speak English, now we got a Air China Pilot that had a difficult time communicating with JFK ground.

enjoy.


Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
153 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 31054 times:

Wow. That could be dangerous.

User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2051 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 31042 times:

That crew shouldn't be allowed to fly into the US.

User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 30929 times:

Sounds like nothing has change with Air China. When they first started to fly to SFO back in the late 70's, ATC had to give them extra spacing because of this exact problem, I was flying into SFO from ACV on a United Express E-120 in 93? when we had to missed approached due to Air China just stopping on the runway and not turning as requested to the taxi ways.

User currently offlineMustang304 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 30853 times:

I recently did a tour of the SEA tower, and the joke was made that they clear a whole lotta airspace whenever China Airlines arrives (also due to language issues).

User currently offlineYLWbased From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2006, 824 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 30811 times:

Quoting Mustang304 (Reply 4):
they clear a whole lotta airspace whenever China Airlines arrives

correction, is Air China, not China Airlines.

Air China, Bejing (PEK) based airlines of People's Republic of China (PRC)
China Airlines, Taipei (TPE) based airlines of Republic of China (ROC) aka Taiwan



Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 30783 times:

javascript:void window.open('http://www.airliners.net/discussions/images.inc','Images','left=50,top=50,width=200,height=250,scrollbars,menubar=no,status=no,resizable=no,toolbar=no');
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[quote=Mustang304,reply=4]China Airlines arrives (also due to language issues).

Just to be fair both China Air and Eva have a number of western pilots in the cockpits whereas Air China doesn't have any. In the patrol we had DWO (driving while Oriental) wonder if FWO is the same?  blockhead 


User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 30785 times:

My school (Spartan) used to train Chinese pilots under contract for the airlines over there. They caused so much havoc on the radios I am glad to be rid of them.

User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 30747 times:

Haha, this one is just as bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUnVlyyar4M&mode=related&search=
Very entertaining.



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineYLWbased From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2006, 824 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 30634 times:

I think is time to give you guys a clear list of Chinese Carriers, so you guys won't mix up CI with CA again

Major Airlines in People's Republic of China:


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Photo © Weimeng


Air China (CA) - Based: PEK


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Photo © Xiao min


China Eastern (MU) - Based: PVG


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Photo © Pearl su


China Southern (CZ) - Based: CAN


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Photo © Tian Xiaofei


Hainan Airlines (HU) - Based: HAK


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Photo © Scott Lindsell


Shanghai Airlines (FM) - Based: PVG


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Photo © Michael Nikel


Sichuan Airlines (3U) - Based: CTU


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Photo © Islam Chen


Xiamen Airlines (MF) - Based: XMN


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Photo © Weimeng


Okay Airways (BK) - Based: TSN


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Photo © Shenzhe


Shenzhen Airlines (ZH) - Based: SZX


Major Airlines in Republic of China (Taiwan):


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Photo © Sneeze Lam


China Airlines (CI) - Based: TPE


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Photo © Ralph Duenas - Jetwash Images


EVA (BR) - Based: TPE


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Photo © K.H.Yim


TransAsia (GE) - Based: TSA


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Photo © M Radzi Desa


Far Eastern Air Transport (EF) - Based: TPE/TSA


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Photo © Alex Pan


Mandarin Airlines (AE) - Based: TPE/TSA


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Photo © Je89 W.


Uni Air (B7) - Based: KHH


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Photo © Dennis Chang


Daily Air (DA) - Based: KHH


Major Airlines in Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of Peoples Republic of China (HKSAR)


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Photo © Mark Tang - HKAEC


Air Hong Kong (LD) - Based: HKG *Cargo Only


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Cathay Pacific (CX) - Based: HKG


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Dragonair (KA) - Based: HKG


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Hong Kong Airlines (N8) - Based: HKG


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Photo © Sneeze Lam


Hong Kong Express (UO) - Based: HKG


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Oasis Hong Kong Airlines (O8) - Based: HKG


Major Airlines in Macau Special Administrative Region of Peoples Republic of China (Macau SAR)


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Photo © Andrew Hunt - AirTeamImages


Air Macau (NX) - Based: MFM


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Photo © Sam Chui


VIva Macau (ZG) - Based: MFM

[Edited 2007-04-12 21:54:08]

[Edited 2007-04-12 21:58:19]


Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 30562 times:

Quoting AirCop:
Just to be fair both China Air and Eva have a number of western pilots in the cockpits whereas Air China doesn't have any. In the patrol we had DWO (driving while Oriental) wonder if FWO is the same?

Believe it or not they do; FWO is a term I've used a lot. However EV will never make a westener a Captain. Really they only hire expatriates to baby sit the left seaters; or so I've heard.



Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineMustang304 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 30468 times:

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 5):

I know the difference. Please don't assume I don't. I was referring to CHINA AIRLINES(CI), based out of Taipei. I worked with both airlines aircraft programs (Air China 777-200 and 747-400, China Airlines 747-400) when I was at Boeing. (As an aside, I also worked on most others 777/747, as I was in certification engineering in payloads). I know the different Chinese (PRC and ROC) airlines.

Currently Air China does not offer service to SEA. China Airlines (CI), does, from Taipei. The tower was referring to the fact that the China Airlines pilots from Taipei have issues with language. They did not mention EVA.

Mustang304

edit: grammer

[Edited 2007-04-12 22:59:07]

User currently offlineUnattendedBag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 30404 times:

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 9):
I think is time to give you guys a clear list of Chinese Carriers,

There was no reason for that post. Several of those carriers don't even fly to the United States.

(Im sure you will argue there is no reason for this post) haha



Slower traffic, keep right
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 30373 times:

Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 12):
There was no reason for that post. Several of those carriers don't even fly to the United States.

Woah, this man put together all these pictures and information just for us, and all you can do is say, "You wasted your time, we really don't care."

I for one am very impressed at his research and thank him for his hard work. It was very informative and something that I would like to know. There are a lot of those kind of airlines and it get's confusing to know where every one of them is based. Thanks YLWbased.



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 30310 times:

It isn't just Chinese carriers.

In one instance, an Aerolineas Argentinas 707 was actually on a collision course with the World Trade Center in 1981. The pilot, not understanding his instructions, and in dense clouds, had descended down to a level below minimums for New York City, and was heading directly towards the north tower.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19900125-0&lang=en

In the case of the Avianca 707 crash in Cove Neck, NY, due to fuel starvation, the pilots knew that they were low on fuel, but were unable to phrase it correctly to JFK control. As a result, instead of prioritizing them, ATC sent them into a go-around loop for which the plane had insufficient fuel, resulting in a crash.

I also remember a news program playing a tape of Seattle ATC where an Aeroflot IL-96 could not make himself understood at all. The plane landed safely, but there was no understanding between the tower and the plane.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineKevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 30285 times:

Another funny/worrying one about Air China, heard it from a Sterling pilot a few years ago.

He was on approach to 22L at CPH, just lining up like everyone else waiting to get down at the airport. 22L was used for landings, 22 R for take-offs. 22L intersects with the cross rwy, 12-30.

Suddenly, ATC at CPH told him to abort his landing immediately, and climb. Why? An Air China 747 was trying to land on rwy 12! The plane did not respond to any ATC directions for several minutes, and landed nicely on rwy 12. Don't know the aftermath, but quite a story, still.. Maybe the aftermath was that Air China stopped flying on CPH shortly after..???  Wink

Kevin777  Smile



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlineMagyar From Hungary, joined Feb 2000, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 30223 times:

This is not funny at all! People can die because of such misunderstandings.

User currently offlineFolov From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 170 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 30177 times:

Even though i am half asian, I always get pissed off while driving in my neighborhood (asian mostly) We call it ADD (Asian Driving Disorder

[Edited 2007-04-12 23:36:47]

User currently offlineKevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 30145 times:

Quoting Magyar (Reply 16):
This is not funny at all! People can die because of such misunderstandings.

Don't get me wrong, I meant funny/worrying in the sense weird/worrying, not funny as in "what a laugh"..



"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
User currently offlineYLWbased From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2006, 824 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 30006 times:

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 13):

thanks for you compliment  Smile



Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
User currently offlineCgagn From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 29963 times:

Just another reason to avoid most of those asian carriers. Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown? I'll stick with Cathay Pacific if I have to fly an Asian carrier.

C-GAGN



Widebodies flown on: A330-300,A340-300,A380-800,747-400,767-200ER,767-300ER,777-200A,777-200ER,777-200LR,777-300ER
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 29900 times:

This is why I think that allowing pilots to speak in their native languages in places, where their native language is spoken, is a security risk. Granted, if you're flying a GA aircraft, that may not be such a concern, but when we're talking about commercial aircraft like a 747 or an A320 for example, and major airports like CDG, ORD and PEK, it is important that they all speak sufficient English and practice it regularly. It's sad that only few countries where English is not the official language, like Switzerland or Germany for example, enforce this rule that ATC communications may only be in English. Just remember the runway incursion incident between this Shorts cargo aircraft and an Air Liberté MD-80 in CDG a few years ago. Had the Shorts pilot understood what ATC was saying to the MD-80 (and communications with the MD-80 was in French), they could have held short and avoid the inevitable disaster, yet France still insists on having ATC communication in both French and English, despite the security problem of ATC being bilingual and the language issues.

Pilots should have a very high proficiency in the English language, same for air traffic controllers (and I'm talking about conversational English, not just an English ATC vocabulary to be used in a country where they don't speak their language). Those who can't speak English or are not willing to properly learn it, should not fly an aircraft or control air traffic. It's that simple. I believe in the same documentary where the CDG runway incursion was shown, it was said that AF made English the only ATC language in which pilots may speak to French ATC controllers, but people protested against this and the plan was dropped.


User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 29841 times:

I fly United to, from and in Asia a lot and in the USA. As much as I love Channel 9, it is a real rude awakening to the language problems of pilots around the world, but especially in Asia. In Asia, not only are the pilots difficult to understand, but the ATC employees are just as bad. I cringe when I hear the misunderstandings and many repeats of instructions from ATC to the pilots. Help us all!

User currently offlineGeorgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 679 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 29819 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
This is why I think that allowing pilots to speak in their native languages in places, where their native language is spoken, is a security risk.

Not only a security risk, but a flying hazard! I could easily see the headlines already "Plane crash due to language barriers between pilot and ATC" At least have the pilots coming to the United States English certified. Or any country who is concernd about the safety of their passengers.



Al Gore invented global warming.
User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 29775 times:

Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20):
Just another reason to avoid most of those asian carriers. Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown? I'll stick with Cathay Pacific if I have to fly an Asian carrier.

OH definitely.... Avoid SQ, NH, Thai, CI, BR, JL... Just wondering, how many of them have you flown with?


25 Trex8 : actually CI never crashed a 727, A320, 734, 738, 741, 747SP. and the caravelle got blown up by a bomb. and their 742F crash was the first of several
26 Phxplanes : I train in the PHX area and there are tons of asian pilots. You cant understand a word they say. I feel bad for the instructors.
27 HighFlyer9790 : landing at a US airport = speak ENGLISH PROPERLY! thats dangerous! he had to take his time to guide the aircraft to the gate.
28 LTU932 : Not just at US airports, but also at UK airports, German Airports, Swiss airports, etc.
29 Zeke : Just to be fair to what was said on the radio by Kennedy ground. I did not hear one radio call from ground that was standard ICAO apart form hold posi
30 UAL777 : Ha! We train Chinese here in San Antonio, and some of them need other students to translate! Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of
31 Trex8 : to be fair, if the native Taiwanese CI pilots can't "speak" English, its because a fair bunch of them probably graduated from UND! Almost 20% of CIs p
32 Kiramakora : That is just too bad for you then. The consistently best service are all provided mostly by Asian carriers.
33 YLWbased : just to be fair to all Asian on this forum. Lots of Asian airlines hv a better safety record compare to north american/european airlines. (e.g. CX, KA
34 Lemurs : The problem with that is it proves nothing about how they can fly an airplane in and out of an airport, and worse, it can introduce points of confusi
35 Zeke : For your information, in the USA people do not speak English, it is American English, which is different. What seems like a normal sentence to you, m
36 Cgagn : I've never flown any asian carrier. I've never even been to asia, but I would very much like to. I don't think a person has to physically fly an airl
37 Smashme33 : why a security risk? It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of
38 LTU932 : OK, maybe not security, but definitely a safety risk. I apologise for the bad choice of words.
39 HighFlyer9790 : at least you can speak english properly! no worries...it could be a security risk though...
40 Smashme33 : Once again, why?
41 PlanenutzTB : I laugh through this entire sound clip, but I also wonder, should I be very scared about flying into and out of JFK. This ATC seemed very stressed ou
42 Lexy : Agreed. I know for a fact a number of CI pilots are Canadian and US born. I have met them before. Although, there is a "Chinese" component to the fli
43 Apollo13 : I can relate. We were into JFK one time from Beijing and we had the same problem with Air China. We stopped onto the taxiway for what seemed to be lik
44 GOCAPS16 : That Air China pilot reminds me of one of my flight instructor based in Virginia. He was full blooded korean and had a very strong korean accent. I ha
45 CaptainJon : i was about to paste that link! that is very scary. i have listened to KJFK and have had heard some interesting stuff. usually people cutting in line
46 Tsaord : Gosh....I can't be an ATC person those audio clips just drove me crazy. Too many voices and repeats lol. I would like to fly without a concern in the
47 SkyGazer : Understand English to what extent? While most of us will agree that having a higher level of comprehension of the English language will generally mak
48 Post contains images Mirrodie : Of course, what's irony is seeing the lapse in grammar and spelling here. Well, try not to blame ATC too quicky. I've seen and heard at least 2 Air C
49 Georgebush : No it cant. English, as far as I am concerned, is the official language of aviation. It shouldn't matter what part of the world you are in, for safet
50 LTU932 : Doubtful. What you're suggesting is not only expensive to the airline, but also very impractical. You'd need at least 2 to 4 years to get to a somewh
51 HOONS90 : It appears that you know very little about the aviation scene in Asia. Can you please list the airlines which you assume is unsafe, and why? Please d
52 Post contains images VC10DC10 : Good grief! So China Airlines (the Taiwanese concern ) has never crashed the following jets: 727 734 738 741 74S 320 330 340 What other types have th
53 BosWashSprStar : These are extraordinarily good points. The ATC controller was the problem in the OP's recording, NOT the pilot. The pilot is very clearly trying to u
54 Chiawei : They almost crashed the 747SP near San Francisco. They almost crashed A340 in Anchorage.
55 Luxair : Zeke, u just made my most respected users list (see ur reply 29) for replying to this post! 100% agree with you! Im happy that u wrote this down in a
56 BoeingOnFinal : It is not needed to know the english language in radio communications, as long as everybody uses the correct terms. And the ATC in the United States
57 Kevin777 : Anybody know the consequences of these incidents? For instance, the Air China 981 at JFK, would that result in, I don't know? ATC contacting Air China
58 Cgagn : Well, I think I covered most of what your looking for when I posted the following shortly after my first post... As far as you saying not to bring up
59 Cgagn : After a little investigating on the net, maybe it was Korean Air, not China Airlines, that have crashed NEARLY every type they've ever operated. They'
60 Raventom : Topic is "Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English" Is the title of this topic purposely in bad English?
61 Trex8 : 707-320, 737-200, A300-600, 747-200, 747-400, MD11, dunno about their turboprops/props no its in North Dakotese
62 GFFgold : I'm astonished that there doesn't seem to be a standardized international English proficiency test for pilots. To get into a university or college in
63 AUA747 : Very informative, thanks for a great job. You never know when we could use this as a reference. ATC-Cockpit language barrier is not only big in Asia,
64 Flying Belgian : I know an Airbus Captain (working for the delivery/training dpt at TLS). He told me amazing stories about Chinese pilots. FB.
65 Post contains images Raventom : Do you wish to share them with us?
66 Smashme33 : It does not depend on anyone's personal concern...English isn't the official language of aviation EVERYwhere. I think I was misunderstood here. I was
67 Gihanjay : My question is, how is the world did this pilot manage have a ATP rating without understanding the basic of ATC communication? I feel sorry for the AT
68 Smashme33 : How did this "ATC guy" get authorized to work JFK ground without using standard phraseology?
69 LTBEWR : In some of the above posts, people made very inappropriate remarks about Asians and being poor drivers or pilots. For many Asians, they may be very in
70 Dambuster : It's simply shocking... any international flight MUST have pilots who speak proper ENGLISH. Even internal flights must have English communication... I
71 Post contains images Gr8Circle : 'Asia' covers a very large area....wish you would be more specific about which countries you are targeting in such comments....India is also very muc
72 ATCGOD : I have been avoiding this for the last few days, but just couldn't resist. It's sad when you have to use light gun signals to land an aircraft because
73 Post contains images Mustang304 : Hey now... to be fair, I was editing my post, and had run the spell checker to fix my "grammer". After trying to submit my post, for some reason, it
74 777236ER : As bad as the flight crew were, the ground controller used precious little ICAO standard phraseology. This is all dangerous nonsense. Standard phraseo
75 ATCGOD : Well, let me ask this question. If the controllers phraseology would have been perfect and TYPED out in front of this pilot, do you think he'd have b
76 Georgebush : I dont think the English problem is so much with the US pilots, but with pilots from other countries where our FAA doesnt have any jurisdiction. Main
77 ATCGOD : Well, the FAA might not have jurisdiction but ICAO does. And ICAO says English is the official language of aviation and the all pilots must be profic
78 GRIVely : How many different languages would you recommend that an airline pilot flying for an international carrier learn? After all, they might be landing in
79 Georgebush : I totally agree with you, but WHY cant this be more strictly enforced?? AT least for pilots coming to the US.
80 Cloudyapple : The world is much bigger than the USA. Everywhere indeed. English is the standard language in aviation. That's why standard phraseology is good. But
81 Georgebush : He is a ground controller at one of the busiest international airports in the world!! He doesnt have time to deal with pilots who cant understand bas
82 BoeingOnFinal : Yes! I agree that every pilot should have sufficient English-talking capabilities. And I mean English, not American. I don't know who suggested that
83 ATCGOD : Thanks, I just got checked a month ago. Put yourself in his shoes. We're not all the same, nor perfect and in stressful conditions are you any differ
84 Georgebush : Do you see that hearing specialist? He might not be as good as you think, because I heard no yelling, I heard frustration.
85 777236ER : I don't want to give an ATCO slack for not doing his job properly. Whilst of course the Air China crew should understand English, the job of the ATCO
86 ATCGOD : Happy A.net birthday! I think you should realize that all, and I mean ALL controllers think that all pilots are stupid and vice versa. I happen to be
87 Navigator : I think this JFK Controller could have done a calmer job, knowing that Air China does not understand complicated english. This never happens in Europe
88 Crjflyer35 : On the same note of Chinese students, it's ridiculous here in Phoenix trying to get flight training done. I fly out of Glendale, but we have planes fr
89 Georgebush : Unfortunately attempting to give English lessons isn't in that ATCO's job description. (My advance apologies if that was his job, in that case he was
90 707lvr : I think we're all missing the wider issue here. Regarding and treating these pilots like coolies only reinforces the determination of their entire Ind
91 ATCGOD : Well, I think you've got to understand that standard phraseology does not apply to every situation. The controller told this guy to taxi via a determ
92 CaptainTim : Wow i laughed my butt off till i fell off my chair.. As a Chinese from Hong Kong, that is a piece of art, i think i'll have that as my ringtone from n
93 Georgebush : Europe has more experience dealing with different languages. Air China NEEDS to understand english, even complicated english. If there was an emergen
94 ATCGOD : Excuse me, but if this happened to you and say that Air China flight started rolling when he wasn't cleared and rolling toward another plane would yo
95 CaptainTim : note: 5$ that this topic will be archived or deleted
96 Georgebush : i'll raise you 5
97 ATCGOD : As it probably should be.
98 Georgebush : Why? This is a legitimate thread about aviation. Someone really needs to send that tape to Air China.
99 ATCGOD : True, but there are some pretty heated arguments here that have taken a southward turn. Ie. Navigators assesment that American ATC'rs are primadonnas
100 B777ER : That controller on the second link has not won many friends over the years. He did a real bad berating of a maintence crew towing a plane across 13L
101 Georgebush : Not really. But mr. Navigator would have a different response if this Air China guy was landing in ARN. GUARENTEED!
102 LTU932 : Nevertheless, it's still impractical to learn another country's language in order to avoid language problems. English is the language that is used fo
103 Post contains images ATCGOD : Actually, in FAA levels, this is a level 12 tower...which is the busiest.
104 ATCGOD : I don't know, how complicated is it to know you're being asked a question and not being given a command?
105 Gihanjay : I have to agree with you on this one. When you have one aircraft holding up traffic due to a problem in understanding the basic ATC communications, i
106 Smashme33 : Personnel CRISIS? Are you serious? Learning foreign phraseology would cause no problem. It would actually give pilots more flexibility in foreign air
107 Post contains images Mrniji : Well, you can turn this around! Often, we Americans are not understood properly by other nations (with English as prime language), because our accent
108 ATCGOD : Yes. Think of a pilot flying from the US to say Israel or a similar destination. Think of all the languages that person would be required to know. Th
109 Post contains images 777236ER : But using the correct terminology is. The controller didn't use standard terminology, and complicated things because of it. Yes, I can blame the cont
110 Smashme33 : I'm not debating against pilots having decent English abilities when flying into Anglophone airspace. This pilot should have more English training. I
111 ATCGOD : That had already been compromised because of the lack of verbal communication between crew and controller. Your example here does not make any sense.
112 Atmx2000 : Why are you picking on native English speaking pilots? It's not a two way street, it's an n-way street. You do realize that non-English speaking pilo
113 Zeke : That is a pass/fail item now in our pilot selection process, everyone in the company is in the process of being tested. FYI Cloudyapple would handle
114 GFFgold : I work as a native speaker teacher of English in S.E. Asia. It is not rocket science to include an English language component - and a STANDARDIZED pro
115 ATCGOD : Uh, Air China in absolutely no way pays for the ATC service over here. Get your facts straight. Maybe indirectly (very indirectly through fuel taxes
116 GFFgold : Good point. Let's include cultural issues in training.
117 CXA330300 : Mostly rehashed stuff or nitpicking: Perhaps its actually time to make sure that major international airports have Chinese/French/Spanish-speaking con
118 Zeke : Every airline pays the FAA. Airlines currently pay about 10 billion in ticket and other taxes that currently underwrite much of the air traffic contr
119 YLWbased : incorrect, all airlines that serves US of A pay the FAA. God eh, get your facts straight. i have my total respect to Zeke, and i believe most of the
120 B777ER : LOL!! This statement is gold! Everyone that flies into and out of JFK should know you dont "anger the masters", they will have you doing loops up on
121 P3Orion : Wrong. FAA phraseology for Air Carriers is in group form; i.e. "Nine eighty one." JFK ATCT is an ATC 10.[Edited 2007-04-14 06:11:22]
122 Kdm : I remember flying from LA to London on United and listening to channel 12? the entire trip a number of years ago. When flying over Scotland the ATC wa
123 YLWbased : as zeke said, the world is a lot bigger then just USA. and USA should be no different from any other country, and should apply standard ICAO phraseol
124 Post contains links Zeke : Actually either is correct according to the FAA http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0204.html.
125 Post contains images Iwok : ICAO terminology will only get you so far. You need to understand the language so that, for example, you can understand that a question is being aske
126 Zvocio79 : not need to speak english fluently, but they should have at least the technical english they use on their field. how about ATC speaking more than one
127 GFFgold : I bet the scottish controllers dealt with it patiently and didn't get stroppy. People skills are part of the training at CATS.
128 Zeke : This same topic came up on pprune, a number of native english speakers piped up and said they had problems with controllers at JFK. If a number of pi
129 Qslinger : Excellent Job!! U put in a lot of effort!
130 Kdm : Correct, it was handled very professionally by both sides, the American pilot conceded that he didn't understand and offered to hand communication to
131 Ardian : Excellent explanation. The best way to communicate: KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid I see it from both sides: The pilot has really got to improve his En
132 Post contains images 777236ER : No, not really. The psychological nature of the teamworking changes entirely when the ATCO raises his voice. Another flight crew member ends up speak
133 PVG : You think that the JFK thing was bad. You should listen to ch. 9 on UA when we take off from PVG. Imagine an Indian pilot speaking accented english wi
134 ACFA : An AC pilot told me once that if they have a rejected takeoff in PEK, the procedure is to declare a MAYDAY so that ATC stops everything. Previously wh
135 Post contains images ATCGOD : Oh, because I don't always voice my opinion and am relatively new to A.net means I know nothing. Right, keep your oh so mighty RR of 2 to yourself. I
136 Raventom : That sign is in a totally different context. It's translated using a computer and we all know the computer cannot do that perfectly. Whearas when tal
137 777236ER : You'll always hear "niner eight wun" outside of the US in the Western world, why not in America? ICAO phraseology exists for a reason. Which is still
138 ATCGOD : It's not aggressive. It's trying something different after the previous method obviously hadn't been working. I'm a pilot and a controller, I know al
139 Raventom : The common link is the lack of standard RT from both ends.
140 ATCGOD : Excellent assessment.
141 A342 : I agree, pilots simply cannot learn all the languages they might need on intl' flights, even if it were just the words they need to communicate with A
142 777236ER : Well then do you think that raising your voice - and whether you agree with it, he certainly did that - promotes good communication? The controller c
143 ATCGOD : I've not disputed the fact that he raised his voice nor that it was wrong to do so. I've conceded the point and we're beating a dead horse now. I wou
144 P3Orion : No, I tell him to try another radio. It sounds like you, and Zeke, have a problem with FAA controllers. Did you have a bad experience with us?[Edited
145 L410Turbolet : As it should be send to that ATC's boss. No one's denying that the Chinese pilot's command of English is a disaster, but ATC guy acting like an arrog
146 Raventom : A little birdie told me they were rude and try to sound cool.
147 Stanley : I am an atc from Chengdu acc in China. ADS-A and CPDLC are in use via L888. On the other hand, about forty foreign aircrafts operate via B330 under ra
148 HAWK21M : What numbers of foreign carrier land out there/day.Whats the spacing like. regds MEL
149 Dallasnewark : And you would forego safety just for better service?
150 Raventom : Safety is not compromised in all of the East. Not all Asian carriers have bad 'Englishy'!
151 Stanley : There are about 450 scheduled flights per day in Shuangliu airport, and the air flow record for Shuangliu airport is about 520. Meanwhile , there are
152 Smashme33 : Perhaps if you would read the thread, you would not believe that I would want people to learn all kinds of complete languages. Just the phraseologies
153 ATCGOD : I just don't think it's feasible. "Hang on approach, let me get my phraseology sheet out." It'll never happen and is just not do-able. Pilots have en
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