AirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 23893 times:
Sounds like nothing has change with Air China. When they first started to fly to SFO back in the late 70's, ATC had to give them extra spacing because of this exact problem, I was flying into SFO from ACV on a United Express E-120 in 93? when we had to missed approached due to Air China just stopping on the runway and not turning as requested to the taxi ways.
Mustang304 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 67 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 23817 times:
I recently did a tour of the SEA tower, and the joke was made that they clear a whole lotta airspace whenever China Airlines arrives (also due to language issues).
YLWbased From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Jan 2006, 540 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 23775 times:
Quoting Mustang304 (Reply 4): they clear a whole lotta airspace whenever China Airlines arrives
correction, is Air China, not China Airlines.
Air China, Bejing (PEK) based airlines of People's Republic of China (PRC)
China Airlines, Taipei (TPE) based airlines of Republic of China (ROC) aka Taiwan
Kelowna - Aviation Gateway of the Central Okanagan
AirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 23747 times:
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[quote=Mustang304,reply=4]China Airlines arrives (also due to language issues).
Just to be fair both China Air and Eva have a number of western pilots in the cockpits whereas Air China doesn't have any. In the patrol we had DWO (driving while Oriental) wonder if FWO is the same?
Futurecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 23749 times:
My school (Spartan) used to train Chinese pilots under contract for the airlines over there. They caused so much havoc on the radios I am glad to be rid of them.
CRGsFuture From United States, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 hours ago) and read 23526 times:
Quoting AirCop: Just to be fair both China Air and Eva have a number of western pilots in the cockpits whereas Air China doesn't have any. In the patrol we had DWO (driving while Oriental) wonder if FWO is the same?
Believe it or not they do; FWO is a term I've used a lot. However EV will never make a westener a Captain. Really they only hire expatriates to baby sit the left seaters; or so I've heard.
Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
I know the difference. Please don't assume I don't. I was referring to CHINA AIRLINES(CI), based out of Taipei. I worked with both airlines aircraft programs (Air China 777-200 and 747-400, China Airlines 747-400) when I was at Boeing. (As an aside, I also worked on most others 777/747, as I was in certification engineering in payloads). I know the different Chinese (PRC and ROC) airlines.
Currently Air China does not offer service to SEA. China Airlines (CI), does, from Taipei. The tower was referring to the fact that the China Airlines pilots from Taipei have issues with language. They did not mention EVA.
Evan767 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 2860 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 23337 times:
Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 12): There was no reason for that post. Several of those carriers don't even fly to the United States.
Woah, this man put together all these pictures and information just for us, and all you can do is say, "You wasted your time, we really don't care."
I for one am very impressed at his research and thank him for his hard work. It was very informative and something that I would like to know. There are a lot of those kind of airlines and it get's confusing to know where every one of them is based. Thanks YLWbased.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
PanAm747 From United States, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 11 Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 23274 times:
It isn't just Chinese carriers.
In one instance, an Aerolineas Argentinas 707 was actually on a collision course with the World Trade Center in 1981. The pilot, not understanding his instructions, and in dense clouds, had descended down to a level below minimums for New York City, and was heading directly towards the north tower.
In the case of the Avianca 707 crash in Cove Neck, NY, due to fuel starvation, the pilots knew that they were low on fuel, but were unable to phrase it correctly to JFK control. As a result, instead of prioritizing them, ATC sent them into a go-around loop for which the plane had insufficient fuel, resulting in a crash.
I also remember a news program playing a tape of Seattle ATC where an Aeroflot IL-96 could not make himself understood at all. The plane landed safely, but there was no understanding between the tower and the plane.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
Kevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1062 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 23249 times:
Another funny/worrying one about Air China, heard it from a Sterling pilot a few years ago.
He was on approach to 22L at CPH, just lining up like everyone else waiting to get down at the airport. 22L was used for landings, 22 R for take-offs. 22L intersects with the cross rwy, 12-30.
Suddenly, ATC at CPH told him to abort his landing immediately, and climb. Why? An Air China 747 was trying to land on rwy 12! The plane did not respond to any ATC directions for several minutes, and landed nicely on rwy 12. Don't know the aftermath, but quite a story, still.. Maybe the aftermath was that Air China stopped flying on CPH shortly after..???
Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" - CPH-TXL SK319
YLWbased From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Jan 2006, 540 posts, RR: 5 Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 22970 times:
Cgagn From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 330 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 22927 times:
Just another reason to avoid most of those asian carriers. Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown? I'll stick with Cathay Pacific if I have to fly an Asian carrier.
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 12086 posts, RR: 57 Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22864 times:
This is why I think that allowing pilots to speak in their native languages in places, where their native language is spoken, is a security risk. Granted, if you're flying a GA aircraft, that may not be such a concern, but when we're talking about commercial aircraft like a 747 or an A320 for example, and major airports like CDG, ORD and PEK, it is important that they all speak sufficient English and practice it regularly. It's sad that only few countries where English is not the official language, like Switzerland or Germany for example, enforce this rule that ATC communications may only be in English. Just remember the runway incursion incident between this Shorts cargo aircraft and an Air Liberté MD-80 in CDG a few years ago. Had the Shorts pilot understood what ATC was saying to the MD-80 (and communications with the MD-80 was in French), they could have held short and avoid the inevitable disaster, yet France still insists on having ATC communication in both French and English, despite the security problem of ATC being bilingual and the language issues.
Pilots should have a very high proficiency in the English language, same for air traffic controllers (and I'm talking about conversational English, not just an English ATC vocabulary to be used in a country where they don't speak their language). Those who can't speak English or are not willing to properly learn it, should not fly an aircraft or control air traffic. It's that simple. I believe in the same documentary where the CDG runway incursion was shown, it was said that AF made English the only ATC language in which pilots may speak to French ATC controllers, but people protested against this and the plan was dropped.
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
Bicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22805 times:
I fly United to, from and in Asia a lot and in the USA. As much as I love Channel 9, it is a real rude awakening to the language problems of pilots around the world, but especially in Asia. In Asia, not only are the pilots difficult to understand, but the ATC employees are just as bad. I cringe when I hear the misunderstandings and many repeats of instructions from ATC to the pilots. Help us all!
Georgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22783 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21): This is why I think that allowing pilots to speak in their native languages in places, where their native language is spoken, is a security risk.
Not only a security risk, but a flying hazard! I could easily see the headlines already "Plane crash due to language barriers between pilot and ATC" At least have the pilots coming to the United States English certified. Or any country who is concernd about the safety of their passengers.
FlyingHippo From United States, joined Aug 2005, 568 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22739 times:
Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20): Just another reason to avoid most of those asian carriers. Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown? I'll stick with Cathay Pacific if I have to fly an Asian carrier.
OH definitely.... Avoid SQ, NH, Thai, CI, BR, JL... Just wondering, how many of them have you flown with?
Trex8 From United States, joined Nov 2002, 2902 posts, RR: 17 Reply 25, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 22687 times:
Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20): Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown?
actually CI never crashed a 727, A320, 734, 738, 741, 747SP. and the caravelle got blown up by a bomb. and their 742F crash was the first of several 747Fs with the engine pylon problem so thats hardly their fault either. all other jet types they have operated they have indeed crashed, except also for the A330, 340
HighFlyer9790 From United States, joined Jul 2005, 1212 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 22580 times:
landing at a US airport = speak ENGLISH PROPERLY! thats dangerous! he had to take his time to guide the aircraft to the gate.
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4660 posts, RR: 64 Reply 29, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 22388 times:
Just to be fair to what was said on the radio by Kennedy ground.
I did not hear one radio call from ground that was standard ICAO apart form hold position. Despite what people think ATC in the USA is some of the worst, that rubbish about getting out of the aircraft and doing the taxiway work is a fairly typical sort of banter.
The controller should have said when clarifying the directions, "Negative, taxi Juliet, Alfa hold sort Mike Alfa" and "confirm receipt of ramp clearance" not "have they cleared you into the ramp".
The response to a "confirm" is either "afrim", "negative", or "standby".
At the same time he is yelling at them, they would be trying to contact the ramp controller on the another radio, the pilots are listening and transmitting on 2 frequencies, the controller should be aware of that, every airline does that.
Instead of speaking clearly and slowly he gets angry and raises his voice and speaks faster "this is a question blah blah", raising his voice does not add in the clarity of the content of the message.
A sensible controller would have picked up on this years ago when first handling Air China aircraft and would deliberately slow down the delivery of clearances and to use standard phraseology only.
It is always easy to blame Air China, you should hear American pilots stumble their way through ATC in Asia and Russia, the joe cool ATC banter is not appreciated. Standard phraseology should be used for all clearances, readbacks, and position reports, anything else confuses people.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
UAL777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1251 posts, RR: 3 Reply 30, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 22182 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29):
It is always easy to blame Air China, you should hear American pilots stumble their way through ATC in Asia and Russia, the joe cool ATC banter is not appreciated. Standard phraseology should be used for all clearances, readbacks, and position reports, anything else confuses people.
Ha! We train Chinese here in San Antonio, and some of them need other students to translate! Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.
Further, I wonder if the American pilots "stumbling" through ATC calls in Asia/Russia is not due to poor controller comprehension?
Just say NO to scope relief! In fact, TAKE IT BACK!
Trex8 From United States, joined Nov 2002, 2902 posts, RR: 17 Reply 31, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 21913 times:
to be fair, if the native Taiwanese CI pilots can't "speak" English, its because a fair bunch of them probably graduated from UND! Almost 20% of CIs pilots are non Taiwanese with the largest contingent from Canada (or used to be anyway a few years ago). If there are CI pilots who can't speak good ATC English, and I'm sure there are some, the vast majority must be speaking non standard SEA ATC American English.
YLWbased From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Jan 2006, 540 posts, RR: 5 Reply 33, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 21699 times:
just to be fair to all Asian on this forum. Lots of Asian airlines hv a better safety record compare to north american/european airlines. (e.g. CX, KA, SQ, JL, NH, TG, just to name a few) and they DO SPEAK ENGLISH!
second, most of the major airport in Asia do have ATCs that speak proper english. (e.g. HKG, SIN, NRT, BKK to name a few).
and i do agree with Zeke, major airport like JFK should use proper ICAO ATC instructions to avoid miscommunications. i personally have a very difficult time talking to lots of tower across the boarder from Canada, coz they dun use standard ICAO instructions.
But as for this Air China pilot, i do agree that he should be suspended until he could pass an English Test, and i do agree no pilot should be allow to fly if they can't communicate with ATC in english fluently.
Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20): Just another reason to avoid most of those asian carriers. Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown? I'll stick with Cathay Pacific if I have to fly an Asian carrier.
Well, wt about SQ, JL, NH, TG, KA? they are all excellent airlines interms of safety. they have a better safety record then Air Canada, First Air, Canadian North.
Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 27): landing at a US airport = speak ENGLISH PROPERLY! thats dangerous! he had to take his time to guide the aircraft to the gate.
not only in US, but ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. amen.
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 28): Not just at US airports, but also at UK airports, German Airports, Swiss airports, etc.
as i said, anywhere in the world, including all 6 Continent.
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30): Further, I wonder if the American pilots "stumbling" through ATC calls in Asia/Russia is not due to poor controller comprehension?
depends on which airport are you talking about. as i said, HKG, SIN, NRT, BKK, MFM all speaks very good English and they are up with International Standard if not over.
Kelowna - Aviation Gateway of the Central Okanagan
Lemurs From United States, joined Mar 2005, 1411 posts, RR: 5 Reply 34, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 21624 times:
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30): Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.
The problem with that is it proves nothing about how they can fly an airplane in and out of an airport, and worse, it can introduce points of confusion because non-standard language can mean ambiguous instructions. It would be like a hotshot programmer coming into a project that's been written entirely in C++, and deciding that since he's so damned good, he can get back with some assembly here and there. Fine, he can do that just fine, and maybe the guy in the office next to him can read it and understand what he's doing, but the rest of the team is left screwed. If something happens to him, everyone loses because they're not on the same page.
It's one thing to have banter between the correct and effective communications, but it's another to abandon protocol for the banter entirely. It's a protocol for a reason.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4660 posts, RR: 64 Reply 35, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 21628 times:
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30): Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.
For your information, in the USA people do not speak English, it is American English, which is different. What seems like a normal sentence to you, may be incomprehensible to an english speaker in South Africa. That is why we have standard ICAO phraseology.
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30): Further, I wonder if the American pilots "stumbling" through ATC calls in Asia/Russia is not due to poor controller comprehension?
Well I heard CO aircraft the other day giving a position report with his fuel on board..... and had to go back and forth 4 times to get the clearance correct.
The world is larger than the USA, people in the USA teach students for the US market, most instructors at the ab-inito stage have any exposure to ATC outside the US, and would not know what ICAO standard phraseology is. Same with US controllers, many have little experience overseas, the American controllers we have at HKG only use standard phraseology, and have a go at the likes of UA, CO etc for not using it, and not reading back clearances correctly.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
Cgagn From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 330 posts, RR: 0 Reply 36, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 21626 times:
Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 24): Just wondering, how many of them have you flown with?
I've never flown any asian carrier. I've never even been to asia, but I would very much like to. I don't think a person has to physically fly an airline before they can comment on the safety record....
Perhaps I was a little hasty. I think a good arguement can be made that many asian carriers have had a spotty safety record in the past, however, in recent years many carriers have focused alot of energy on their safety programs and such. Airliner World magazine, in past issues, has specifically mentions Thai and Korean Air as two airlines who have launched new safety programs in recent years. Hearing ATC conversations like the one the original poster mentions certainly would make some people feel a little uneasy. To me, that recording seems like more than just some slight misunderstanding between pilot and ATC.
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 23): Not only a security risk, but a flying hazard! I could easily see the headlines already "Plane crash due to language barriers between pilot and ATC" At least have the pilots coming to the United States English certified. Or any country who is concernd about the safety of their passengers.
It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
HighFlyer9790 From United States, joined Jul 2005, 1212 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 21311 times:
I laugh through this entire sound clip, but I also wonder, should I be very scared about flying into and out of JFK. This ATC seemed very stressed out and very out of control of the traffic on the ground at JFK.
I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end.
Lexy From United States, joined Jun 2006, 2218 posts, RR: 6 Reply 42, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20823 times:
Quoting AirCop (Reply 6): Just to be fair both China Air and Eva have a number of western pilots in the cockpits whereas Air China doesn't have any.
Agreed. I know for a fact a number of CI pilots are Canadian and US born. I have met them before. Although, there is a "Chinese" component to the flightdeck on some flights, not all are Chinese. Heck, I have even encountered an Australian FO on one of their freighters!
Apollo13 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 43, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20778 times:
I can relate. We were into JFK one time from Beijing and we had the same problem with Air China. We stopped onto the taxiway for what seemed to be like 15 minutes then proceded into the tarmac area for our gate then we slowly moved, then stopped, moved then stopped. It kept going for about 10 minutes. Finally some cars came near us and then we were escorted to the gate. i was one of the last people off the plane and i saw a bunch of people in suits having a chat with the Air China pilots in the jetway. They were not very happy.
GOCAPS16 From Japan, joined Jan 2000, 4039 posts, RR: 32 Reply 44, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20758 times:
That Air China pilot reminds me of one of my flight instructor based in Virginia. He was full blooded korean and had a very strong korean accent. I had a hard time understanding and learning at the same time, so I switched for a CFI who spoke better english. Unofortunately, according to the chief pilot, he didn't get a lot of students and ended up quitting.
I flew form ORD-NRT last month, and on approach to NRT, mainly heard british, canadian, and australian pilots on the radio, even flying for Cathay, JAL, Korean, etc. I had a hard time understanding the controllers, tho.
I hear a lot of U.S. regional pilots with piss poor english. Gotta love channel 9.
i was about to paste that link! that is very scary. i have listened to KJFK and have had heard some interesting stuff. usually people cutting in line and hte controller wasnt amused. but this is a mess! i wonder how bad EWR is!
Tsaord From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 46, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20607 times:
Gosh....I can't be an ATC person those audio clips just drove me crazy. Too many voices and repeats lol.
I would like to fly without a concern in the world, but, languages barriers can cause a problem I see. I wonder how many mishaps have happened over language at ORD. Things SEEM to run smoothly lol.
SkyGazer From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 76 posts, RR: 0 Reply 47, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 20569 times:
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30): Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.
Understand English to what extent? While most of us will agree that having a higher level of comprehension of the English language will generally make things safer, and prevent hazardous misunderstandings like this one, surely having all pilots from non-English speaking backgrounds fluent in conversational English like most of us here is not always practical?
Instead, like Zeke says, all ATCs and pilots around the world should be properly trained in and adhering to standard ICAO terminology, which is obviously designed for clear and effective communication. Welcome to my RU list Zeke.
In the case of the the piece in the OP, when the CA pilot asks for confirmation to hold short of Hotel, he gets a mouthful of a response from the controller, "Yes you do unless you come out of the plane and open up all those closed taxiways and finish the construction over there.", which is totally unnecessary. All the extra crap would have done is add confusion, as the CA pilot probably didn't take in a word of it. How hard it is it to respond with a clear "affirmative"?
Anyone even with the smallest bit of experience in with dealing with people with limited English abilities would know that getting your point across by saying only as much as needed (and as little as possible sometimes without cutting vital bits out) is the way to go if you want them to understand properly.
Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 10): EV will never make a westener a Captain. Really they only hire expatriates to baby sit the left seaters; or so I've heard.
Of course, what's irony is seeing the lapse in grammar and spelling here.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29): Instead of speaking clearly and slowly he gets angry and raises his voice and speaks faster "this is a question blah blah", raising his voice does not add in the clarity of the content of the message.
Well, try not to blame ATC too quicky. I've seen and heard at least 2 Air China goes through language issues at JFK. In all fairness, it might have been the same pilot on different occassions. At one point, it was so obvious that the Air China 747 wasn't going anywhere, so ATC actually made the UA 757 behind the 744 taxi in front of the Air China and make him follow the UA off the runway and back into the queue.
Georgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 20510 times:
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37): It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
No it cant. English, as far as I am concerned, is the official language of aviation. It shouldn't matter what part of the world you are in, for safety, security, whatever! It is a lot less confusing if everyone speak the same language. It wouldn't matter to me if that language were French, German, Spanish, but its not. It is English and its the language spoken by most every (should be every) pilot worldwide.
If pilots have to switch languages when switching air spaces, should the Captain jump over to the right seat when they hit British airspace too??
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 40): Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 39):
it could be a security risk though
Once again, why?
If you have people on the radio speaking all different languages how will they be able to communicate with certain law enforcement officials should a problem arise on board??
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 12086 posts, RR: 57 Reply 50, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 20433 times:
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37): It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
Doubtful. What you're suggesting is not only expensive to the airline, but also very impractical. You'd need at least 2 to 4 years to get to a somewhat conversational level, and not all countries use ICAO terminology in their own language. (here at SJO, I get the impression that they're translating lots of FAA terminology into Spanish when speaking to locals and Spanish speaking pilots).
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
It appears that you know very little about the aviation scene in Asia. Can you please list the airlines which you assume is unsafe, and why? Please don't bring up the past safety records (which are from BEFORE the drastic turnaround) of KE or CI from many years ago, like many others try to do. If you do, I'll assume that you are completely unaware of the drastic changes that underwent during the last few years.
FYI, Airlines such as ANA has never had a fatal crash since the early 70s, and EVA has never had one before. Asiana is another safe Asian airline with only one crash over 14 years ago.
If you try to avoid such airlines, how do you deal with the car ride to the airport? Isn't that statistically more dangerous?
"Operator. Give me the number for 911." - Homer J. Simpson
VC10DC10 From United States, joined Apr 2006, 736 posts, RR: 0 Reply 52, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 19606 times:
Quoting Trex8 (Reply 25): Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20):
Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown?
actually CI never crashed a 727, A320, 734, 738, 741, 747SP. and the caravelle got blown up by a bomb. and their 742F crash was the first of several 747Fs with the engine pylon problem so thats hardly their fault either. all other jet types they have operated they have indeed crashed, except also for the A330, 340
Good grief! So China Airlines (the Taiwanese concern ) has never crashed the following jets:
727
734
738
741
74S
320
330
340
What other types have they operated? (And crashed?)
BosWashSprStar From United States, joined Jan 2007, 172 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19542 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29): Just to be fair to what was said on the radio by Kennedy ground. . .
Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 47): Understand English to what extent? . . .
These are extraordinarily good points. The ATC controller was the problem in the OP's recording, NOT the pilot. The pilot is very clearly trying to use the standard language that he understands, but the controller continues to speak very quickly and use jargon that a native English speaker might not understand.
This is a common problem throughout the aviation industry--On US domestic flights, I have seen flight attendants say to non-English speaking passengers "I am going to have to ask you to sit down now and buckle your seat belt in order to comply with federal regulation" or some other canned expression that they're accustomed to using all the time. When the person didn't understand, the FA repeated the exact same long, complex expression, when what she really needed to say was "Please sit now" or something equally simple that hopefully the person could understand more easily.
Chiawei From United States, joined Nov 2000, 835 posts, RR: 2 Reply 54, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 18565 times:
Quoting Trex8 (Reply 25): actually CI never crashed a 727, A320, 734, 738, 741, 747SP. and the caravelle got blown up by a bomb. and their 742F crash was the first of several 747Fs with the engine pylon problem so thats hardly their fault either. all other jet types they have operated they have indeed crashed, except also for the A330, 340
Luxair From Luxembourg, joined Jan 2001, 679 posts, RR: 2 Reply 55, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 18514 times:
Zeke, u just made my most respected users list (see ur reply 29) for replying to this post! 100% agree with you! Im happy that u wrote this down in a nice and clear way, understandable even for some US people here at A.net!!!
BoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 18517 times:
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30): Ha! We train Chinese here in San Antonio, and some of them need other students to translate! Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.
It is not needed to know the english language in radio communications, as long as everybody uses the correct terms. And the ATC in the United States are really good at using the everyday language instead of the terms that are international and everyone is trained to know and respond to.
Even though it spices up everyones day with a funny Air Traffic Controller, or some amusing comments from a pilot, it is not always appropriate to be like that. Especially when you break the pilots confidence when they might have limited language skills to begin with.
Kevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1062 posts, RR: 1 Reply 57, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18054 times:
Anybody know the consequences of these incidents?
For instance, the Air China 981 at JFK, would that result in, I don't know? ATC contacting Air China HQ, the pilots or?
The Air China landing on the inactive cross rwy at CPH, without responding to any ATC, what happens afterwards? Any sanctions against the airline, pilots? Fines? I know they fine at CPH if airlines/pilots use thrust reverse when it's not needed, but still, I'd say this is too serious to "just" involve a fine.
Anybody has any info on the aftermath of these incidents?
Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" - CPH-TXL SK319
Cgagn From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 330 posts, RR: 0 Reply 58, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17554 times:
Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 51): It appears that you know very little about the aviation scene in Asia. Can you please list the airlines which you assume is unsafe, and why? Please don't bring up the past safety records (which are from BEFORE the drastic turnaround) of KE or CI from many years ago, like many others try to do. If you do, I'll assume that you are completely unaware of the drastic changes that underwent during the last few years.
FYI, Airlines such as ANA has never had a fatal crash since the early 70s, and EVA has never had one before. Asiana is another safe Asian airline with only one crash over 14 years ago.
Well, I think I covered most of what your looking for when I posted the following shortly after my first post...
Quoting Cgagn (Reply 36): Perhaps I was a little hasty. I think a good arguement can be made that many asian carriers have had a spotty safety record in the past, however, in recent years many carriers have focused alot of energy on their safety programs and such. Airliner World magazine, in past issues, has specifically mentions Thai and Korean Air as two airlines who have launched new safety programs in recent years. Hearing ATC conversations like the one the original poster mentions certainly would make some people feel a little uneasy. To me, that recording seems like more than just some slight misunderstanding between pilot and ATC.
As far as you saying not to bring up past safety records, such things don't go away. I totally agree airlines like Korean Air have improved their safety records considerably. It could be said that as a result of their high accident rate in the past, the spotlight was unfairly placed on them as being an unsafe carrier, but that's not always a bad thing. Since then they have improved considerable, which they might not have done to the same extent had the spotlight not been on them. I'll say again, I was a little hasty in lumping all asian carriers together as having unsafe records. As has been pointed out many times now, there are several with excellent safety records. Having never flown on an Asian carrier, I would like to one day, and wouldn't hesitate to fly most of them. You'd have a tough time getting me on Adam Air for example, but I'd take Korean Air from YVR someday if I could.
And yes...we all know driving to the airport is more dangerous than the flight itself, so they tell us.
Cgagn From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 330 posts, RR: 0 Reply 59, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17405 times:
After a little investigating on the net, maybe it was Korean Air, not China Airlines, that have crashed NEARLY every type they've ever operated. They've crashed the 707-300, 747-200, 747-300, 747-400, DC10, MD11, F28, A300, MD82
Altho this is from Wikipedia, it seems to sum it up...
"From mid 1980s to the late 1990s, Korean Air had safety problems. In fact, the SkyTeam alliance briefly removed Korean Air from its code share program until demonstrable changes were presented to the alliance. The US Federal Aviation Administration, which regulates access to the American airspace, warned the Korean Air management team that its access to the American airports would be restricted unless drastic changes were forthcoming. The U.S. military and the State department advised its personnel to avoid taking Korean Air if other commercial alternatives were available. The competing carrier, Asiana Airlines, benefited tremendously from the dramatic drop in Korean Air's reputation as its safety record was significantly better than Korean Air's.
Since the turn of the century, Korean Air has demonstrated robust improvements in safety and adopted modern principles of CRM (Crew Resource Management). In October 2006, Korean Air won top honors in the TIME Readers’ Travel Choice Awards an indication that many have regained confidence in South Korea's largest airline."
GFFgold From Indonesia, joined Feb 2007, 394 posts, RR: 0 Reply 62, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16313 times:
I'm astonished that there doesn't seem to be a standardized international English proficiency test for pilots. To get into a university or college in English speaking countries requires a TOEFL or IELTS certificate - presumably getting into the same countries' airspace doesn't(?)
AUA747 From Aruba, joined Jul 2006, 136 posts, RR: 0 Reply 63, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16131 times:
Quoting YLWbased (Reply 9): I think is time to give you guys a clear list of Chinese Carriers, so you guys won't mix up CI with CA again
Very informative, thanks for a great job. You never know when we could use this as a reference.
Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 22): I fly United to, from and in Asia a lot and in the USA. As much as I love Channel 9, it is a real rude awakening to the language problems of pilots around the world, but especially in Asia. In Asia, not only are the pilots difficult to understand, but the ATC employees are just as bad. I cringe when I hear the misunderstandings and many repeats of instructions from ATC to the pilots. Help us all!
ATC-Cockpit language barrier is not only big in Asia, it is also big in SouthAmerica, especially flying through Brazil and Bolivia.
Smashme33 From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 66, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14712 times:
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 49): No it cant. English, as far as I am concerned, is the official language of aviation.
It does not depend on anyone's personal concern...English isn't the official language of aviation EVERYwhere.
I think I was misunderstood here. I was saying that it could be a two-way street...Non-Anglophone carriers should learn and practice adequately the English phraseology before being allowed the opportunity to fly to places with English-only ATC. Anglophone pilots should learn the phraseology of the foreign countries that they fly to, that way, if there becomes a misunderstanding in English, the foreign country's language can be the backup.
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 50): not all countries use ICAO terminology in their own language.
All the reason to learn the phraseology of the countries that you fly to. What it would cost the airlines to give their international pilots some language training would not be so bad if we look at the time and fuel that they are burning on the ground because of confusion. Look at accidents(or near accidents) that have happened because of misunderstanding.
Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 47): In the case of the the piece in the OP, when the CA pilot asks for confirmation to hold short of Hotel, he gets a mouthful of a response from the controller, "Yes you do unless you come out of the plane and open up all those closed taxiways and finish the construction over there.", which is totally unnecessary. All the extra crap would have done is add confusion, as the CA pilot probably didn't take in a word of it. How hard it is it to respond with a clear "affirmative"?
Nice example. If a UA plane taxiing in China would have gotten that kind of treatment and jargon in Chinese, what would we think of that?
Gihanjay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 67, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14684 times:
My question is, how is the world did this pilot manage have a ATP rating without understanding the basic of ATC communication? I feel sorry for the ATC guy.
Smashme33 From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 68, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14529 times:
Quoting Gihanjay (Reply 69): My question is, how is the world did this pilot manage have a ATP rating without understanding the basic of ATC communication? I feel sorry for the ATC guy.
How did this "ATC guy" get authorized to work JFK ground without using standard phraseology?
LTBEWR From United States, joined Jan 2004, 9287 posts, RR: 7 Reply 69, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14184 times:
In some of the above posts, people made very inappropriate remarks about Asians and being poor drivers or pilots. For many Asians, they may be very inexperienced in driving as their parents may not have driven cars, and for those in the USA, you have language issues (such as to understand signs), general unfamiliarity with the area driving in, and so on. Yes, we may observe a disproportionate number of bad drivers in some areas who happen to be being Asian (like here in Northern New Jersey where I live), but just to say someone is a bad driver due to their place of birth or ancestry shows some bad taste. There are plenty of multi-generational Americans who are bad drivers too.
As to the pilot in question here, yes, there should be strict standards for airline pilots to have the ability to speak and understand English for the safety and security of the passengers. If they don't, then they shouldn't be allowed to fly in certain areas.
Dambuster From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 121 posts, RR: 1 Reply 70, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14009 times:
It's simply shocking... any international flight MUST have pilots who speak proper ENGLISH. Even internal flights must have English communication...
I might be repeating what people here have said but isn't there a sanction from the FAA for this sort of problem?
Gr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 2 Reply 71, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13955 times:
Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 22): In Asia, not only are the pilots difficult to understand, but the ATC employees are just as bad.
'Asia' covers a very large area....wish you would be more specific about which countries you are targeting in such comments....India is also very much a part of Asia and there is no language problem with Indian pilots....
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 614 posts, RR: 4 Reply 72, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13522 times:
I have been avoiding this for the last few days, but just couldn't resist.
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 14):
I also remember a news program playing a tape of Seattle ATC where an Aeroflot IL-96 could not make himself understood at all. The plane landed safely, but there was no understanding between the tower and the plane.
It's sad when you have to use light gun signals to land an aircraft because two perfectly good radios can't communicate with each other.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29): The controller should have said when clarifying the directions, "Negative, taxi Juliet, Alfa hold sort Mike Alfa" and "confirm receipt of ramp clearance" not "have they cleared you into the ramp".
Zeke, I'm sorry man. I respect your position but I think you're wrong. First off, confirm receipt of ramp clearance is not in the .65. Granted, not much of what this controller said is official verbage but anyone who spoke English to the standard would understand what the ATC'r was saying.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29):
At the same time he is yelling at them, they would be trying to contact the ramp controller on the another radio, the pilots are listening and transmitting on 2 frequencies, the controller should be aware of that, every airline does that.
I didn't hear anyone yelling. This is a frustrated controller who is having to devote all his attention to one aircraft because of a language problem that doesn't exist with many other pilots. You apparantly don't seem to understand that when you have 20 aircraft on your frequency one aircraft should not be monopolizing the conversing because of a language barrier. That's simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29):
Instead of speaking clearly and slowly he gets angry and raises his voice and speaks faster "this is a question blah blah", raising his voice does not add in the clarity of the content of the message.
How many times did he have to ask this question? Several. And by the way, the rules states that when official verbage is not available to use any language possible to properly convey a message.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29):
A sensible controller would have picked up on this years ago when first handling Air China aircraft and would deliberately slow down the delivery of clearances and to use standard phraseology only.
Didn't he do that? He did slow down his words. By not using standard phraseology, he was attempting to "dumb-it down". I applaud him for doing that. The pilot apparantly didn't understand anything this controller was saying other than picking up on key words like ramp, gate, taxiway. At that point you've basically got to keep all your other traffic clear of this guy and that's dangerous.
Pilots and controllers are supposed to work together, but in this instance that didn't happen.
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37): US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
Yeah, right. We'd have just about zero international pilots. Think of the personnel crisis your suggestion would cause?
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 49): English, as far as I am concerned, is the official language of aviation.
Not just as far as you're concerned, but it's the official ICAO language.
Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 53): The ATC controller was the problem in the OP's recording, NOT the pilot.
You sound like you need to spend a day in a controllers shoes.
Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 53): but the controller continues to speak very quickly and use jargon that a native English speaker might not understand.
He spoke clear English that anyone who spoke English would understand.
I'm astonished that there doesn't seem to be a standardized international English proficiency test for pilots.
I think there is, isn't there? I know when I went up for my Private license, the FAA fella told me that one of the things they check for is a proficiency for English.
Mustang304 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 67 posts, RR: 0 Reply 73, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13296 times:
Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 48): Of course, what's irony is seeing the lapse in grammar and spelling here. Wink
Hey now... to be fair, I was editing my post, and had run the spell checker to fix my "grammer". After trying to submit my post, for some reason, it needed me to re-authenticate, and for some reason it lost the spelling change, but kept my edit. Anyway, I am unable to re-edit to fix it.
So. grammer is wrong, grammar is correct, Anet's posting tool has a bug or doesn't like firefox, and you'd think after 36 years, I could spell.
Back to topic-
The issue is communication. Maybe someday we'll have some high tech translator or some sort of update device that will notify aircraft of their clearances without requiring radio communications from people to people. But for now, the standard is English (American/South African/Australian/Indian/UK/whatever).
It would be a good idea for international airlines and ATCs (that handle international traffic) to mandate a minimum test for conversational English, using an international standard. This would include the USA and other English speaking countries to cover ICAO terminology.
The other option, albeit it would be difficult, would be to have multi-lingual controllers. It would be pretty difficult to find the proper mix though.
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12706 posts, RR: 57 Reply 74, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13247 times:
As bad as the flight crew were, the ground controller used precious little ICAO standard phraseology.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): Granted, not much of what this controller said is official verbage but anyone who spoke English to the standard would understand what the ATC'r was saying.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72):
How many times did he have to ask this question? Several.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): Not just as far as you're concerned, but it's the official ICAO language.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): He spoke clear English that anyone who spoke English would understand.
This is all dangerous nonsense. Standard phraseology exists for a reason. Every other Western country can manage it, I'm amazed the US has such difficulty. The use of non-standard phraseology causes crashes. Standard phraseology is there to aid controllers - like yourself.
The ridiculous banter about holding short or getting out of the plane to open taxiways is uncalled for, non-standard, agressive and destroys CRM between the flight crew and the ATCO.
'Make a right turn here at Juliette'? is non-sensical - the ATCO is in the tower! Immediately after the flight crew failed to understand that ambiguous and non-standard phraseology, the ATCO raised his voice - which is not professional and destroys CRM. The callsign isn't 'nine eighty one', it's 'niner eight wun' - another case of non-standard phraseology. The ATCO then contacted the flight crew, without identifying himself when he knew they'd be monitoring two frequencies, and asked another ambiguous question without using standard phraseology. The rest of the recording is just an example of a petulant, dangerous ATCO putting his emotions ahead of safe controlling.
As much as the Air China crew were at fault, the entire process would have been easier (and safer) had the ATCO used standard ICAO phraseology. Runway incursions and ground collisions still occur because ATCOs think the banter is acceptable.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 614 posts, RR: 4 Reply 75, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13247 times:
Quoting Mustang304 (Reply 73): It would be a good idea for international airlines and ATCs (that handle international traffic) to mandate a minimum test for conversational English, using an international standard. This would include the USA and other English speaking countries to cover ICAO terminology.
Well, let me ask this question. If the controllers phraseology would have been perfect and TYPED out in front of this pilot, do you think he'd have been able to understand what was said and follow the instruction? I'm not so sure he could have.
Georgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13248 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): I think there is, isn't there? I know when I went up for my Private license, the FAA fella told me that one of the things they check for is a proficiency for English.
I dont think the English problem is so much with the US pilots, but with pilots from other countries where our FAA doesnt have any jurisdiction. Mainly Asia, and yes for whoever made the comment about Indian pilots having perfect english, I have heard more than one that does not. Most of the time people from India have a distinct, and VERY hard to understand english accent. All one needs to do is call United Airlines Reservations!
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): Not just as far as you're concerned, but it's the official ICAO language.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 614 posts, RR: 4 Reply 77, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13194 times:
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 76): but with pilots from other countries where our FAA doesnt have any jurisdiction.
Well, the FAA might not have jurisdiction but ICAO does. And ICAO says English is the official language of aviation and the all pilots must be proficient.
GRIVely From United States, joined Dec 2006, 115 posts, RR: 0 Reply 78, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13103 times:
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37): It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
How many different languages would you recommend that an airline pilot flying for an international carrier learn? After all, they might be landing in a Francophone country one day and into an Arabic-speaking country next. The following week could see them in Brazil and then flying into Mexico City. Oh, that would mean the pilot would need to know both Portuguese and Spanish, plus English for enroute, on the same leg.
You can see then why it probably makes sense to use English as a standard language for international aviation. Having aircraft maneuvering in the vicinity of an airfield where two or three different languages are being used by the various aircraft is a very hair-raising experience. Especially when you don't know the aircraft to your right was just given clearance to land on the same runway you are making for.
That has happened to me when I was in the cockpit for a military flight to provide language support for just that purpose and was able to advise our aircraft commander to break off the approach. When we queried the controller he apologized and said that he was not a native speaker of the language the other flight was using and was talking to his tower mates in yet a third language. (He spoke Cantonese, the other aircraft was using Mandarin and most of the other traffic was using English.) Confusing to say the least.
Cloudyapple From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Jul 2005, 1927 posts, RR: 7 Reply 80, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13028 times:
Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 12): There was no reason for that post. Several of those carriers don't even fly to the United States.
Everywhere indeed. English is the standard language in aviation.
Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 53): The pilot is very clearly trying to use the standard language that he understands, but the controller continues to speak very quickly and use jargon that a native English speaker might not understand.
That's why standard phraseology is good. But on the ground not everything can be communicated across with pure standard phreaseology. But controllers should keep anything non standard to the minimum and out of local necessity.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): I didn't hear anyone yelling.
I know a good hearing specialist near where you live.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): This is a frustrated controller who is having to devote all his attention to one aircraft because of a language problem that doesn't exist with many other pilots.
By shouting and being impatient he was only lenghthening the time that it takes to resolve the situation.
In this part of the world we deal with this type of situation day in day out. The way we deal with non native English speaker pilots is by default we slow right down when we speak and try to sound as calm as possible. Sticking to standard phreaseology will help a lot.
Chinese pilots are certainly one of the difficult ones. Koreans and Japaneses are not much better neither. You'd be surprised to know that many American pilots have difficulties understanding instructions. CPLs are usually better than PPLs.
In 2 years time ICAO's English language proficiency grading will come into force. It will become mandatory for pilots and controllers to get tested on their ability to listen to, understand and speak English for use on the job. Even native English speakers will be tested. The test will grade candidates from 1 to 6. 6 = native speaker eqivalent and 4 being a pass but requiring recurring tests every year. If you get 3 or below you cannot fly/control. But it's up to the local CAA of the country to administer the tests so standards are likely to vary.
I wonder how many of these pilots (and controllers) will require retraining in aviation english...
Georgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 81, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13010 times:
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 74): 'Make a right turn here at Juliette'? is non-sensical - the ATCO is in the tower! Immediately after the flight crew failed to understand that ambiguous and non-standard phraseology, the ATCO raised his voice - which is not professional and destroys CRM. The callsign isn't 'nine eighty one', it's 'niner eight wun' - another case of non-standard phraseology. The ATCO then contacted the flight crew, without identifying himself when he knew they'd be monitoring two frequencies, and asked another ambiguous question without using standard phraseology.
He is a ground controller at one of the busiest international airports in the world!! He doesnt have time to deal with pilots who cant understand basic English commands! I give him credit for keeping his temper as much as he did. I dont understand why some of you people cant give these guys some slack!
I would like to know how you would have better handeld this situation?? Just remember you got about 25 other flights you are working all while trying to give someone an English lesson.
BoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0 Reply 82, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12950 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 75): Well, let me ask this question. If the controllers phraseology would have been perfect and TYPED out in front of this pilot, do you think he'd have been able to understand what was said and follow the instruction?
Yes!
I agree that every pilot should have sufficient English-talking capabilities. And I mean English, not American. I don't know who suggested that the English and American accent is the same, cause it is not.
Everybody thinks that we should adapt to the English language, and that's fair. But shouldn't you do the same? Making jokes and talking Jersey is not the way to help foreign pilots. One could almost get the idea that ATC likes to make foreign pilots suffer for their poor language capabilities, or else they would use standard phraseology and talk slower.
And don't say that talking slower takes to much time, cause making jokes and embarrassing the pilots takes twice the time as helping him in a calm and slow manner.
Put yourself in his shoes. We're not all the same, nor perfect and in stressful conditions are you any different? Didn't think so.
Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 80):
By shouting and being impatient he was only lenghthening the time that it takes to resolve the situation.
I don't think you know what shouting is. Shouting is what I do to the person down the street when her dog barks loudly in the evenings...what this guy did is not shouting.
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12706 posts, RR: 57 Reply 85, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12835 times:
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 81):
He is a ground controller at one of the busiest international airports in the world!! He doesnt have time to deal with pilots who cant understand basic English commands! I give him credit for keeping his temper as much as he did. I dont understand why some of you people cant give these guys some slack!
I don't want to give an ATCO slack for not doing his job properly. Whilst of course the Air China crew should understand English, the job of the ATCO is to use standard phraseology. I don't care whether he's controller at JFK, Heathrow or a local grass strip. English pilots have entered runways they haven't been cleared to because controllers didn't use standard phraseology - and they speak the language fluently.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 614 posts, RR: 4 Reply 86, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12804 times:
Quoting BoeingOnFinal (Reply 82): One could almost get the idea that ATC likes to make foreign pilots suffer for their poor language capabilities, or else they would use standard phraseology and talk slower.
Happy A.net birthday!
I think you should realize that all, and I mean ALL controllers think that all pilots are stupid and vice versa. I happen to be both. Many don't have the patience to deal with these situations. He probably could have handled this situation better, but the pilot sure didn't help him out. It's unnecessary and could be potentially tragic that these pilots do not speak better English.
Navigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 266 posts, RR: 22 Reply 87, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12773 times:
I think this JFK Controller could have done a calmer job, knowing that Air China does not understand complicated english. This never happens in Europe with it´s much calmer and friendlier controllers.
Just another effort to speak slowly from JFK ATC would improve safety a lot... Not everyone is a New Yorker... This happens to other airlines than Air China with those american ATC primadonnas
Crjflyer35 From United States, joined exactly 4 years ago today! , 587 posts, RR: 2 Reply 88, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12744 times:
On the same note of Chinese students, it's ridiculous here in Phoenix trying to get flight training done. I fly out of Glendale, but we have planes from Pan Am up at Deer Valley come into the pattern and completely screw it up because you can't understand a word. All I have to say is Thank God for TCAS in my Cirrus when we're in the practive area, because it's impossible to understand their position reports, that is if they even send one on the radio....
safe flying
Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
707lvr From United States, joined Jun 2004, 418 posts, RR: 3 Reply 90, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12697 times:
I think we're all missing the wider issue here. Regarding and treating these pilots like coolies only reinforces the determination of their entire Industry simply to bide their time until they change the whole system to Chinese. I hope no one believes they aren't speaking English because they can't learn English.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 614 posts, RR: 4 Reply 91, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12640 times:
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 85): Whilst of course the Air China crew should understand English, the job of the ATCO is to use standard phraseology
Well, I think you've got to understand that standard phraseology does not apply to every situation. The controller told this guy to taxi via a determined route and hold short of Mike-Alpha. Pilot reads back November. Controller reads the route again and again, the pilot reads back to hold short of November. Mind you, November is nowhere in this taxi clearance. After a third time and the controller stressing to him to hold short of Mike-Alpha and not November does the pilot read back correctly. This then skips to the point where the Air China flight is holding and waiting for ramp clearance. The controller asks if he's been cleared into the ramp. Pilot reads back, roger to the ramp. Controller tries to verify that he's been cleared to the ramp and calls three times before the pilot answers and says "go ahead". "Controller asks again, have you been cleared to the ramp?" Pilot replies, "ok, cleared to the ramp."
Now up to this point the controller has been extremely calm and very understanding of the language barrier. I have to admit I'd start getting a little frustrated here too. Can you blame him? He's asking simple questions and been getting answers as though the controller has cleared this aircraft. Complete language barrier on the part of the pilot.
CaptainTim From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2004, 427 posts, RR: 0 Reply 92, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12639 times:
Wow i laughed my butt off till i fell off my chair..
As a Chinese from Hong Kong, that is a piece of art, i think i'll have that as my ringtone from now on!
that was hiliarious...
but on the serious side yes ATC needs to be aware of the language difference it can be very dangerous.. but dont say some Japanese pilots for some reason are very hard to understand.... i flew into NRT multiple times and it was impossible to understand some of the tower and ground guys...
Gulfstream Planeview Cockpit: "why have hundreds of buttons when a CCD does the same thing and more?"
Georgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 93, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12607 times:
Quoting Navigator (Reply 87): I think this JFK Controller could have done a calmer job, knowing that Air China does not understand complicated english. This never happens in Europe with it´s much calmer and friendlier controllers.
Europe has more experience dealing with different languages. Air China NEEDS to understand english, even complicated english. If there was an emergency he is gonna need to know a little more than, not knowing what "are you cleared to your gate?" means.
Good thing Madonna isn't an ATCO! And that guy didn't even have a New Yorker accent. I am from the mid-west (been to NY) and that sounded VERY casual to me.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 614 posts, RR: 4 Reply 94, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12550 times:
Quoting Navigator (Reply 87): This never happens in Europe with it´s much calmer and friendlier controllers.
Excuse me, but if this happened to you and say that Air China flight started rolling when he wasn't cleared and rolling toward another plane would you raise your voice or very calmly tell this guy that what he's doing is wrong? Before you tell me that I don't know the specifics, you don't either. So don't go trying to tell me that this is a case of being friendly.
Quoting Navigator (Reply 87): This happens to other airlines than Air China with those american ATC primadonnas
American primadonnas. Wow, congratulations, you're now the most ignorant person I've met on A.net. Wasn't it just this last December that a Toronto controller called a female pilot a "stupid ****ing c**t"? Yeah, only us Americans. I've heard stories about you Europeans too...don't think your shit don't stink.
CaptainTim From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2004, 427 posts, RR: 0 Reply 95, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12404 times:
note: 5$ that this topic will be archived or deleted
Gulfstream Planeview Cockpit: "why have hundreds of buttons when a CCD does the same thing and more?"
Sponsor Message: 
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