Silentbob From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Aug 2006, 984 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 24055 times:
That crew shouldn't be allowed to fly into the US.
AirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 23942 times:
Sounds like nothing has change with Air China. When they first started to fly to SFO back in the late 70's, ATC had to give them extra spacing because of this exact problem, I was flying into SFO from ACV on a United Express E-120 in 93? when we had to missed approached due to Air China just stopping on the runway and not turning as requested to the taxi ways.
Mustang304 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 67 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 23866 times:
I recently did a tour of the SEA tower, and the joke was made that they clear a whole lotta airspace whenever China Airlines arrives (also due to language issues).
YLWbased From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Jan 2006, 545 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 23824 times:
Quoting Mustang304 (Reply 4): they clear a whole lotta airspace whenever China Airlines arrives
correction, is Air China, not China Airlines.
Air China, Bejing (PEK) based airlines of People's Republic of China (PRC)
China Airlines, Taipei (TPE) based airlines of Republic of China (ROC) aka Taiwan
Kelowna - Aviation Gateway of the Central Okanagan
AirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 23796 times:
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[quote=Mustang304,reply=4]China Airlines arrives (also due to language issues).
Just to be fair both China Air and Eva have a number of western pilots in the cockpits whereas Air China doesn't have any. In the patrol we had DWO (driving while Oriental) wonder if FWO is the same?
Futurecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 23798 times:
My school (Spartan) used to train Chinese pilots under contract for the airlines over there. They caused so much havoc on the radios I am glad to be rid of them.
CRGsFuture From United States, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 23575 times:
Quoting AirCop: Just to be fair both China Air and Eva have a number of western pilots in the cockpits whereas Air China doesn't have any. In the patrol we had DWO (driving while Oriental) wonder if FWO is the same?
Believe it or not they do; FWO is a term I've used a lot. However EV will never make a westener a Captain. Really they only hire expatriates to baby sit the left seaters; or so I've heard.
Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
I know the difference. Please don't assume I don't. I was referring to CHINA AIRLINES(CI), based out of Taipei. I worked with both airlines aircraft programs (Air China 777-200 and 747-400, China Airlines 747-400) when I was at Boeing. (As an aside, I also worked on most others 777/747, as I was in certification engineering in payloads). I know the different Chinese (PRC and ROC) airlines.
Currently Air China does not offer service to SEA. China Airlines (CI), does, from Taipei. The tower was referring to the fact that the China Airlines pilots from Taipei have issues with language. They did not mention EVA.
Evan767 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 2870 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 23386 times:
Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 12): There was no reason for that post. Several of those carriers don't even fly to the United States.
Woah, this man put together all these pictures and information just for us, and all you can do is say, "You wasted your time, we really don't care."
I for one am very impressed at his research and thank him for his hard work. It was very informative and something that I would like to know. There are a lot of those kind of airlines and it get's confusing to know where every one of them is based. Thanks YLWbased.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
PanAm747 From United States, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 11 Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 23323 times:
It isn't just Chinese carriers.
In one instance, an Aerolineas Argentinas 707 was actually on a collision course with the World Trade Center in 1981. The pilot, not understanding his instructions, and in dense clouds, had descended down to a level below minimums for New York City, and was heading directly towards the north tower.
In the case of the Avianca 707 crash in Cove Neck, NY, due to fuel starvation, the pilots knew that they were low on fuel, but were unable to phrase it correctly to JFK control. As a result, instead of prioritizing them, ATC sent them into a go-around loop for which the plane had insufficient fuel, resulting in a crash.
I also remember a news program playing a tape of Seattle ATC where an Aeroflot IL-96 could not make himself understood at all. The plane landed safely, but there was no understanding between the tower and the plane.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
Kevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1068 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 23298 times:
Another funny/worrying one about Air China, heard it from a Sterling pilot a few years ago.
He was on approach to 22L at CPH, just lining up like everyone else waiting to get down at the airport. 22L was used for landings, 22 R for take-offs. 22L intersects with the cross rwy, 12-30.
Suddenly, ATC at CPH told him to abort his landing immediately, and climb. Why? An Air China 747 was trying to land on rwy 12! The plane did not respond to any ATC directions for several minutes, and landed nicely on rwy 12. Don't know the aftermath, but quite a story, still.. Maybe the aftermath was that Air China stopped flying on CPH shortly after..???
Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" - CPH-TXL SK319
Cgagn From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 331 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 22976 times:
Just another reason to avoid most of those asian carriers. Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown? I'll stick with Cathay Pacific if I have to fly an Asian carrier.
LTU932 From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 12313 posts, RR: 57 Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 22913 times:
This is why I think that allowing pilots to speak in their native languages in places, where their native language is spoken, is a security risk. Granted, if you're flying a GA aircraft, that may not be such a concern, but when we're talking about commercial aircraft like a 747 or an A320 for example, and major airports like CDG, ORD and PEK, it is important that they all speak sufficient English and practice it regularly. It's sad that only few countries where English is not the official language, like Switzerland or Germany for example, enforce this rule that ATC communications may only be in English. Just remember the runway incursion incident between this Shorts cargo aircraft and an Air Liberté MD-80 in CDG a few years ago. Had the Shorts pilot understood what ATC was saying to the MD-80 (and communications with the MD-80 was in French), they could have held short and avoid the inevitable disaster, yet France still insists on having ATC communication in both French and English, despite the security problem of ATC being bilingual and the language issues.
Pilots should have a very high proficiency in the English language, same for air traffic controllers (and I'm talking about conversational English, not just an English ATC vocabulary to be used in a country where they don't speak their language). Those who can't speak English or are not willing to properly learn it, should not fly an aircraft or control air traffic. It's that simple. I believe in the same documentary where the CDG runway incursion was shown, it was said that AF made English the only ATC language in which pilots may speak to French ATC controllers, but people protested against this and the plan was dropped.
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
Bicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 22854 times:
I fly United to, from and in Asia a lot and in the USA. As much as I love Channel 9, it is a real rude awakening to the language problems of pilots around the world, but especially in Asia. In Asia, not only are the pilots difficult to understand, but the ATC employees are just as bad. I cringe when I hear the misunderstandings and many repeats of instructions from ATC to the pilots. Help us all!
Georgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 22832 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21): This is why I think that allowing pilots to speak in their native languages in places, where their native language is spoken, is a security risk.
Not only a security risk, but a flying hazard! I could easily see the headlines already "Plane crash due to language barriers between pilot and ATC" At least have the pilots coming to the United States English certified. Or any country who is concernd about the safety of their passengers.
FlyingHippo From United States, joined Aug 2005, 569 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 22788 times:
Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20): Just another reason to avoid most of those asian carriers. Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown? I'll stick with Cathay Pacific if I have to fly an Asian carrier.
OH definitely.... Avoid SQ, NH, Thai, CI, BR, JL... Just wondering, how many of them have you flown with?
Trex8 From United States, joined Nov 2002, 2922 posts, RR: 19 Reply 25, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 22736 times:
Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20): Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown?
actually CI never crashed a 727, A320, 734, 738, 741, 747SP. and the caravelle got blown up by a bomb. and their 742F crash was the first of several 747Fs with the engine pylon problem so thats hardly their fault either. all other jet types they have operated they have indeed crashed, except also for the A330, 340
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4805 posts, RR: 65 Reply 29, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 22437 times:
Just to be fair to what was said on the radio by Kennedy ground.
I did not hear one radio call from ground that was standard ICAO apart form hold position. Despite what people think ATC in the USA is some of the worst, that rubbish about getting out of the aircraft and doing the taxiway work is a fairly typical sort of banter.
The controller should have said when clarifying the directions, "Negative, taxi Juliet, Alfa hold sort Mike Alfa" and "confirm receipt of ramp clearance" not "have they cleared you into the ramp".
The response to a "confirm" is either "afrim", "negative", or "standby".
At the same time he is yelling at them, they would be trying to contact the ramp controller on the another radio, the pilots are listening and transmitting on 2 frequencies, the controller should be aware of that, every airline does that.
Instead of speaking clearly and slowly he gets angry and raises his voice and speaks faster "this is a question blah blah", raising his voice does not add in the clarity of the content of the message.
A sensible controller would have picked up on this years ago when first handling Air China aircraft and would deliberately slow down the delivery of clearances and to use standard phraseology only.
It is always easy to blame Air China, you should hear American pilots stumble their way through ATC in Asia and Russia, the joe cool ATC banter is not appreciated. Standard phraseology should be used for all clearances, readbacks, and position reports, anything else confuses people.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
UAL777 From United States, joined Aug 2003, 1269 posts, RR: 3 Reply 30, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 22231 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29):
It is always easy to blame Air China, you should hear American pilots stumble their way through ATC in Asia and Russia, the joe cool ATC banter is not appreciated. Standard phraseology should be used for all clearances, readbacks, and position reports, anything else confuses people.
Ha! We train Chinese here in San Antonio, and some of them need other students to translate! Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.
Further, I wonder if the American pilots "stumbling" through ATC calls in Asia/Russia is not due to poor controller comprehension?
Just say NO to scope relief! In fact, TAKE IT BACK!
Trex8 From United States, joined Nov 2002, 2922 posts, RR: 19 Reply 31, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 21962 times:
to be fair, if the native Taiwanese CI pilots can't "speak" English, its because a fair bunch of them probably graduated from UND! Almost 20% of CIs pilots are non Taiwanese with the largest contingent from Canada (or used to be anyway a few years ago). If there are CI pilots who can't speak good ATC English, and I'm sure there are some, the vast majority must be speaking non standard SEA ATC American English.
YLWbased From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Jan 2006, 545 posts, RR: 5 Reply 33, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 21748 times:
just to be fair to all Asian on this forum. Lots of Asian airlines hv a better safety record compare to north american/european airlines. (e.g. CX, KA, SQ, JL, NH, TG, just to name a few) and they DO SPEAK ENGLISH!
second, most of the major airport in Asia do have ATCs that speak proper english. (e.g. HKG, SIN, NRT, BKK to name a few).
and i do agree with Zeke, major airport like JFK should use proper ICAO ATC instructions to avoid miscommunications. i personally have a very difficult time talking to lots of tower across the boarder from Canada, coz they dun use standard ICAO instructions.
But as for this Air China pilot, i do agree that he should be suspended until he could pass an English Test, and i do agree no pilot should be allow to fly if they can't communicate with ATC in english fluently.
Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20): Just another reason to avoid most of those asian carriers. Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown? I'll stick with Cathay Pacific if I have to fly an Asian carrier.
Well, wt about SQ, JL, NH, TG, KA? they are all excellent airlines interms of safety. they have a better safety record then Air Canada, First Air, Canadian North.
Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 27): landing at a US airport = speak ENGLISH PROPERLY! thats dangerous! he had to take his time to guide the aircraft to the gate.
not only in US, but ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. amen.
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 28): Not just at US airports, but also at UK airports, German Airports, Swiss airports, etc.
as i said, anywhere in the world, including all 6 Continent.
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30): Further, I wonder if the American pilots "stumbling" through ATC calls in Asia/Russia is not due to poor controller comprehension?
depends on which airport are you talking about. as i said, HKG, SIN, NRT, BKK, MFM all speaks very good English and they are up with International Standard if not over.
Kelowna - Aviation Gateway of the Central Okanagan
Lemurs From United States, joined Mar 2005, 1411 posts, RR: 5 Reply 34, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 21673 times:
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30): Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.
The problem with that is it proves nothing about how they can fly an airplane in and out of an airport, and worse, it can introduce points of confusion because non-standard language can mean ambiguous instructions. It would be like a hotshot programmer coming into a project that's been written entirely in C++, and deciding that since he's so damned good, he can get back with some assembly here and there. Fine, he can do that just fine, and maybe the guy in the office next to him can read it and understand what he's doing, but the rest of the team is left screwed. If something happens to him, everyone loses because they're not on the same page.
It's one thing to have banter between the correct and effective communications, but it's another to abandon protocol for the banter entirely. It's a protocol for a reason.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4805 posts, RR: 65 Reply 35, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 21677 times:
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30): Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.
For your information, in the USA people do not speak English, it is American English, which is different. What seems like a normal sentence to you, may be incomprehensible to an english speaker in South Africa. That is why we have standard ICAO phraseology.
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30): Further, I wonder if the American pilots "stumbling" through ATC calls in Asia/Russia is not due to poor controller comprehension?
Well I heard CO aircraft the other day giving a position report with his fuel on board..... and had to go back and forth 4 times to get the clearance correct.
The world is larger than the USA, people in the USA teach students for the US market, most instructors at the ab-inito stage have any exposure to ATC outside the US, and would not know what ICAO standard phraseology is. Same with US controllers, many have little experience overseas, the American controllers we have at HKG only use standard phraseology, and have a go at the likes of UA, CO etc for not using it, and not reading back clearances correctly.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
Cgagn From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 331 posts, RR: 0 Reply 36, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 21675 times:
Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 24): Just wondering, how many of them have you flown with?
I've never flown any asian carrier. I've never even been to asia, but I would very much like to. I don't think a person has to physically fly an airline before they can comment on the safety record....
Perhaps I was a little hasty. I think a good arguement can be made that many asian carriers have had a spotty safety record in the past, however, in recent years many carriers have focused alot of energy on their safety programs and such. Airliner World magazine, in past issues, has specifically mentions Thai and Korean Air as two airlines who have launched new safety programs in recent years. Hearing ATC conversations like the one the original poster mentions certainly would make some people feel a little uneasy. To me, that recording seems like more than just some slight misunderstanding between pilot and ATC.
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 23): Not only a security risk, but a flying hazard! I could easily see the headlines already "Plane crash due to language barriers between pilot and ATC" At least have the pilots coming to the United States English certified. Or any country who is concernd about the safety of their passengers.
It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
I laugh through this entire sound clip, but I also wonder, should I be very scared about flying into and out of JFK. This ATC seemed very stressed out and very out of control of the traffic on the ground at JFK.
I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end.
Lexy From United States, joined Jun 2006, 2305 posts, RR: 8 Reply 42, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 20872 times:
Quoting AirCop (Reply 6): Just to be fair both China Air and Eva have a number of western pilots in the cockpits whereas Air China doesn't have any.
Agreed. I know for a fact a number of CI pilots are Canadian and US born. I have met them before. Although, there is a "Chinese" component to the flightdeck on some flights, not all are Chinese. Heck, I have even encountered an Australian FO on one of their freighters!
Apollo13 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 43, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 20827 times:
I can relate. We were into JFK one time from Beijing and we had the same problem with Air China. We stopped onto the taxiway for what seemed to be like 15 minutes then proceded into the tarmac area for our gate then we slowly moved, then stopped, moved then stopped. It kept going for about 10 minutes. Finally some cars came near us and then we were escorted to the gate. i was one of the last people off the plane and i saw a bunch of people in suits having a chat with the Air China pilots in the jetway. They were not very happy.
GOCAPS16 From Japan, joined Jan 2000, 4043 posts, RR: 33 Reply 44, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 20807 times:
That Air China pilot reminds me of one of my flight instructor based in Virginia. He was full blooded korean and had a very strong korean accent. I had a hard time understanding and learning at the same time, so I switched for a CFI who spoke better english. Unofortunately, according to the chief pilot, he didn't get a lot of students and ended up quitting.
I flew form ORD-NRT last month, and on approach to NRT, mainly heard british, canadian, and australian pilots on the radio, even flying for Cathay, JAL, Korean, etc. I had a hard time understanding the controllers, tho.
I hear a lot of U.S. regional pilots with piss poor english. Gotta love channel 9.
i was about to paste that link! that is very scary. i have listened to KJFK and have had heard some interesting stuff. usually people cutting in line and hte controller wasnt amused. but this is a mess! i wonder how bad EWR is!
Tsaord From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 46, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 20656 times:
Gosh....I can't be an ATC person those audio clips just drove me crazy. Too many voices and repeats lol.
I would like to fly without a concern in the world, but, languages barriers can cause a problem I see. I wonder how many mishaps have happened over language at ORD. Things SEEM to run smoothly lol.
SkyGazer From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 76 posts, RR: 0 Reply 47, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 20618 times:
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30): Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.
Understand English to what extent? While most of us will agree that having a higher level of comprehension of the English language will generally make things safer, and prevent hazardous misunderstandings like this one, surely having all pilots from non-English speaking backgrounds fluent in conversational English like most of us here is not always practical?
Instead, like Zeke says, all ATCs and pilots around the world should be properly trained in and adhering to standard ICAO terminology, which is obviously designed for clear and effective communication. Welcome to my RU list Zeke.
In the case of the the piece in the OP, when the CA pilot asks for confirmation to hold short of Hotel, he gets a mouthful of a response from the controller, "Yes you do unless you come out of the plane and open up all those closed taxiways and finish the construction over there.", which is totally unnecessary. All the extra crap would have done is add confusion, as the CA pilot probably didn't take in a word of it. How hard it is it to respond with a clear "affirmative"?
Anyone even with the smallest bit of experience in with dealing with people with limited English abilities would know that getting your point across by saying only as much as needed (and as little as possible sometimes without cutting vital bits out) is the way to go if you want them to understand properly.
Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 10): EV will never make a westener a Captain. Really they only hire expatriates to baby sit the left seaters; or so I've heard.
Of course, what's irony is seeing the lapse in grammar and spelling here.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29): Instead of speaking clearly and slowly he gets angry and raises his voice and speaks faster "this is a question blah blah", raising his voice does not add in the clarity of the content of the message.
Well, try not to blame ATC too quicky. I've seen and heard at least 2 Air China goes through language issues at JFK. In all fairness, it might have been the same pilot on different occassions. At one point, it was so obvious that the Air China 747 wasn't going anywhere, so ATC actually made the UA 757 behind the 744 taxi in front of the Air China and make him follow the UA off the runway and back into the queue.
Georgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 20559 times:
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37): It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
No it cant. English, as far as I am concerned, is the official language of aviation. It shouldn't matter what part of the world you are in, for safety, security, whatever! It is a lot less confusing if everyone speak the same language. It wouldn't matter to me if that language were French, German, Spanish, but its not. It is English and its the language spoken by most every (should be every) pilot worldwide.
If pilots have to switch languages when switching air spaces, should the Captain jump over to the right seat when they hit British airspace too??
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 40): Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 39):
it could be a security risk though
Once again, why?
If you have people on the radio speaking all different languages how will they be able to communicate with certain law enforcement officials should a problem arise on board??
LTU932 From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 12313 posts, RR: 57 Reply 50, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 20482 times:
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37): It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
Doubtful. What you're suggesting is not only expensive to the airline, but also very impractical. You'd need at least 2 to 4 years to get to a somewhat conversational level, and not all countries use ICAO terminology in their own language. (here at SJO, I get the impression that they're translating lots of FAA terminology into Spanish when speaking to locals and Spanish speaking pilots).
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
It appears that you know very little about the aviation scene in Asia. Can you please list the airlines which you assume is unsafe, and why? Please don't bring up the past safety records (which are from BEFORE the drastic turnaround) of KE or CI from many years ago, like many others try to do. If you do, I'll assume that you are completely unaware of the drastic changes that underwent during the last few years.
FYI, Airlines such as ANA has never had a fatal crash since the early 70s, and EVA has never had one before. Asiana is another safe Asian airline with only one crash over 14 years ago.
If you try to avoid such airlines, how do you deal with the car ride to the airport? Isn't that statistically more dangerous?
VC10DC10 From United States, joined Apr 2006, 748 posts, RR: 0 Reply 52, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 19655 times:
Quoting Trex8 (Reply 25): Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20):
Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown?
actually CI never crashed a 727, A320, 734, 738, 741, 747SP. and the caravelle got blown up by a bomb. and their 742F crash was the first of several 747Fs with the engine pylon problem so thats hardly their fault either. all other jet types they have operated they have indeed crashed, except also for the A330, 340
Good grief! So China Airlines (the Taiwanese concern ) has never crashed the following jets:
727
734
738
741
74S
320
330
340
What other types have they operated? (And crashed?)
BosWashSprStar From United States, joined Jan 2007, 172 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 19591 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29): Just to be fair to what was said on the radio by Kennedy ground. . .
Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 47): Understand English to what extent? . . .
These are extraordinarily good points. The ATC controller was the problem in the OP's recording, NOT the pilot. The pilot is very clearly trying to use the standard language that he understands, but the controller continues to speak very quickly and use jargon that a native English speaker might not understand.
This is a common problem throughout the aviation industry--On US domestic flights, I have seen flight attendants say to non-English speaking passengers "I am going to have to ask you to sit down now and buckle your seat belt in order to comply with federal regulation" or some other canned expression that they're accustomed to using all the time. When the person didn't understand, the FA repeated the exact same long, complex expression, when what she really needed to say was "Please sit now" or something equally simple that hopefully the person could understand more easily.
Chiawei From United States, joined Nov 2000, 835 posts, RR: 2 Reply 54, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 18614 times:
Quoting Trex8 (Reply 25): actually CI never crashed a 727, A320, 734, 738, 741, 747SP. and the caravelle got blown up by a bomb. and their 742F crash was the first of several 747Fs with the engine pylon problem so thats hardly their fault either. all other jet types they have operated they have indeed crashed, except also for the A330, 340
Luxair From Luxembourg, joined Jan 2001, 679 posts, RR: 2 Reply 55, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 18563 times:
Zeke, u just made my most respected users list (see ur reply 29) for replying to this post! 100% agree with you! Im happy that u wrote this down in a nice and clear way, understandable even for some US people here at A.net!!!
BoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 18566 times:
Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30): Ha! We train Chinese here in San Antonio, and some of them need other students to translate! Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.
It is not needed to know the english language in radio communications, as long as everybody uses the correct terms. And the ATC in the United States are really good at using the everyday language instead of the terms that are international and everyone is trained to know and respond to.
Even though it spices up everyones day with a funny Air Traffic Controller, or some amusing comments from a pilot, it is not always appropriate to be like that. Especially when you break the pilots confidence when they might have limited language skills to begin with.
Kevin777 From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 1068 posts, RR: 1 Reply 57, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 18103 times:
Anybody know the consequences of these incidents?
For instance, the Air China 981 at JFK, would that result in, I don't know? ATC contacting Air China HQ, the pilots or?
The Air China landing on the inactive cross rwy at CPH, without responding to any ATC, what happens afterwards? Any sanctions against the airline, pilots? Fines? I know they fine at CPH if airlines/pilots use thrust reverse when it's not needed, but still, I'd say this is too serious to "just" involve a fine.
Anybody has any info on the aftermath of these incidents?
Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" - CPH-TXL SK319
Cgagn From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 331 posts, RR: 0 Reply 58, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 17603 times:
Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 51): It appears that you know very little about the aviation scene in Asia. Can you please list the airlines which you assume is unsafe, and why? Please don't bring up the past safety records (which are from BEFORE the drastic turnaround) of KE or CI from many years ago, like many others try to do. If you do, I'll assume that you are completely unaware of the drastic changes that underwent during the last few years.
FYI, Airlines such as ANA has never had a fatal crash since the early 70s, and EVA has never had one before. Asiana is another safe Asian airline with only one crash over 14 years ago.
Well, I think I covered most of what your looking for when I posted the following shortly after my first post...
Quoting Cgagn (Reply 36): Perhaps I was a little hasty. I think a good arguement can be made that many asian carriers have had a spotty safety record in the past, however, in recent years many carriers have focused alot of energy on their safety programs and such. Airliner World magazine, in past issues, has specifically mentions Thai and Korean Air as two airlines who have launched new safety programs in recent years. Hearing ATC conversations like the one the original poster mentions certainly would make some people feel a little uneasy. To me, that recording seems like more than just some slight misunderstanding between pilot and ATC.
As far as you saying not to bring up past safety records, such things don't go away. I totally agree airlines like Korean Air have improved their safety records considerably. It could be said that as a result of their high accident rate in the past, the spotlight was unfairly placed on them as being an unsafe carrier, but that's not always a bad thing. Since then they have improved considerable, which they might not have done to the same extent had the spotlight not been on them. I'll say again, I was a little hasty in lumping all asian carriers together as having unsafe records. As has been pointed out many times now, there are several with excellent safety records. Having never flown on an Asian carrier, I would like to one day, and wouldn't hesitate to fly most of them. You'd have a tough time getting me on Adam Air for example, but I'd take Korean Air from YVR someday if I could.
And yes...we all know driving to the airport is more dangerous than the flight itself, so they tell us.
Cgagn From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 331 posts, RR: 0 Reply 59, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 17454 times:
After a little investigating on the net, maybe it was Korean Air, not China Airlines, that have crashed NEARLY every type they've ever operated. They've crashed the 707-300, 747-200, 747-300, 747-400, DC10, MD11, F28, A300, MD82
Altho this is from Wikipedia, it seems to sum it up...
"From mid 1980s to the late 1990s, Korean Air had safety problems. In fact, the SkyTeam alliance briefly removed Korean Air from its code share program until demonstrable changes were presented to the alliance. The US Federal Aviation Administration, which regulates access to the American airspace, warned the Korean Air management team that its access to the American airports would be restricted unless drastic changes were forthcoming. The U.S. military and the State department advised its personnel to avoid taking Korean Air if other commercial alternatives were available. The competing carrier, Asiana Airlines, benefited tremendously from the dramatic drop in Korean Air's reputation as its safety record was significantly better than Korean Air's.
Since the turn of the century, Korean Air has demonstrated robust improvements in safety and adopted modern principles of CRM (Crew Resource Management). In October 2006, Korean Air won top honors in the TIME Readers’ Travel Choice Awards an indication that many have regained confidence in South Korea's largest airline."
GFFgold From Indonesia, joined Feb 2007, 394 posts, RR: 0 Reply 62, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16362 times:
I'm astonished that there doesn't seem to be a standardized international English proficiency test for pilots. To get into a university or college in English speaking countries requires a TOEFL or IELTS certificate - presumably getting into the same countries' airspace doesn't(?)
AUA747 From Aruba, joined Jul 2006, 136 posts, RR: 0 Reply 63, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days ago) and read 16180 times:
Quoting YLWbased (Reply 9): I think is time to give you guys a clear list of Chinese Carriers, so you guys won't mix up CI with CA again
Very informative, thanks for a great job. You never know when we could use this as a reference.
Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 22): I fly United to, from and in Asia a lot and in the USA. As much as I love Channel 9, it is a real rude awakening to the language problems of pilots around the world, but especially in Asia. In Asia, not only are the pilots difficult to understand, but the ATC employees are just as bad. I cringe when I hear the misunderstandings and many repeats of instructions from ATC to the pilots. Help us all!
ATC-Cockpit language barrier is not only big in Asia, it is also big in SouthAmerica, especially flying through Brazil and Bolivia.
Smashme33 From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 66, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 14761 times:
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 49): No it cant. English, as far as I am concerned, is the official language of aviation.
It does not depend on anyone's personal concern...English isn't the official language of aviation EVERYwhere.
I think I was misunderstood here. I was saying that it could be a two-way street...Non-Anglophone carriers should learn and practice adequately the English phraseology before being allowed the opportunity to fly to places with English-only ATC. Anglophone pilots should learn the phraseology of the foreign countries that they fly to, that way, if there becomes a misunderstanding in English, the foreign country's language can be the backup.
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 50): not all countries use ICAO terminology in their own language.
All the reason to learn the phraseology of the countries that you fly to. What it would cost the airlines to give their international pilots some language training would not be so bad if we look at the time and fuel that they are burning on the ground because of confusion. Look at accidents(or near accidents) that have happened because of misunderstanding.
Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 47): In the case of the the piece in the OP, when the CA pilot asks for confirmation to hold short of Hotel, he gets a mouthful of a response from the controller, "Yes you do unless you come out of the plane and open up all those closed taxiways and finish the construction over there.", which is totally unnecessary. All the extra crap would have done is add confusion, as the CA pilot probably didn't take in a word of it. How hard it is it to respond with a clear "affirmative"?
Nice example. If a UA plane taxiing in China would have gotten that kind of treatment and jargon in Chinese, what would we think of that?
Gihanjay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 67, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 14733 times:
My question is, how is the world did this pilot manage have a ATP rating without understanding the basic of ATC communication? I feel sorry for the ATC guy.
Smashme33 From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 68, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 14578 times:
Quoting Gihanjay (Reply 69): My question is, how is the world did this pilot manage have a ATP rating without understanding the basic of ATC communication? I feel sorry for the ATC guy.
How did this "ATC guy" get authorized to work JFK ground without using standard phraseology?
LTBEWR From United States, joined Jan 2004, 9385 posts, RR: 7 Reply 69, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 14233 times:
In some of the above posts, people made very inappropriate remarks about Asians and being poor drivers or pilots. For many Asians, they may be very inexperienced in driving as their parents may not have driven cars, and for those in the USA, you have language issues (such as to understand signs), general unfamiliarity with the area driving in, and so on. Yes, we may observe a disproportionate number of bad drivers in some areas who happen to be being Asian (like here in Northern New Jersey where I live), but just to say someone is a bad driver due to their place of birth or ancestry shows some bad taste. There are plenty of multi-generational Americans who are bad drivers too.
As to the pilot in question here, yes, there should be strict standards for airline pilots to have the ability to speak and understand English for the safety and security of the passengers. If they don't, then they shouldn't be allowed to fly in certain areas.
Dambuster From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 121 posts, RR: 1 Reply 70, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 14058 times:
It's simply shocking... any international flight MUST have pilots who speak proper ENGLISH. Even internal flights must have English communication...
I might be repeating what people here have said but isn't there a sanction from the FAA for this sort of problem?
Gr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 2395 posts, RR: 2 Reply 71, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 14004 times:
Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 22): In Asia, not only are the pilots difficult to understand, but the ATC employees are just as bad.
'Asia' covers a very large area....wish you would be more specific about which countries you are targeting in such comments....India is also very much a part of Asia and there is no language problem with Indian pilots....
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 617 posts, RR: 4 Reply 72, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 13571 times:
I have been avoiding this for the last few days, but just couldn't resist.
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 14):
I also remember a news program playing a tape of Seattle ATC where an Aeroflot IL-96 could not make himself understood at all. The plane landed safely, but there was no understanding between the tower and the plane.
It's sad when you have to use light gun signals to land an aircraft because two perfectly good radios can't communicate with each other.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29): The controller should have said when clarifying the directions, "Negative, taxi Juliet, Alfa hold sort Mike Alfa" and "confirm receipt of ramp clearance" not "have they cleared you into the ramp".
Zeke, I'm sorry man. I respect your position but I think you're wrong. First off, confirm receipt of ramp clearance is not in the .65. Granted, not much of what this controller said is official verbage but anyone who spoke English to the standard would understand what the ATC'r was saying.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29):
At the same time he is yelling at them, they would be trying to contact the ramp controller on the another radio, the pilots are listening and transmitting on 2 frequencies, the controller should be aware of that, every airline does that.
I didn't hear anyone yelling. This is a frustrated controller who is having to devote all his attention to one aircraft because of a language problem that doesn't exist with many other pilots. You apparantly don't seem to understand that when you have 20 aircraft on your frequency one aircraft should not be monopolizing the conversing because of a language barrier. That's simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29):
Instead of speaking clearly and slowly he gets angry and raises his voice and speaks faster "this is a question blah blah", raising his voice does not add in the clarity of the content of the message.
How many times did he have to ask this question? Several. And by the way, the rules states that when official verbage is not available to use any language possible to properly convey a message.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 29):
A sensible controller would have picked up on this years ago when first handling Air China aircraft and would deliberately slow down the delivery of clearances and to use standard phraseology only.
Didn't he do that? He did slow down his words. By not using standard phraseology, he was attempting to "dumb-it down". I applaud him for doing that. The pilot apparantly didn't understand anything this controller was saying other than picking up on key words like ramp, gate, taxiway. At that point you've basically got to keep all your other traffic clear of this guy and that's dangerous.
Pilots and controllers are supposed to work together, but in this instance that didn't happen.
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37): US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
Yeah, right. We'd have just about zero international pilots. Think of the personnel crisis your suggestion would cause?
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 49): English, as far as I am concerned, is the official language of aviation.
Not just as far as you're concerned, but it's the official ICAO language.
Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 53): The ATC controller was the problem in the OP's recording, NOT the pilot.
You sound like you need to spend a day in a controllers shoes.
Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 53): but the controller continues to speak very quickly and use jargon that a native English speaker might not understand.
He spoke clear English that anyone who spoke English would understand.
I'm astonished that there doesn't seem to be a standardized international English proficiency test for pilots.
I think there is, isn't there? I know when I went up for my Private license, the FAA fella told me that one of the things they check for is a proficiency for English.
Mustang304 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 67 posts, RR: 0 Reply 73, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13345 times:
Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 48): Of course, what's irony is seeing the lapse in grammar and spelling here. Wink
Hey now... to be fair, I was editing my post, and had run the spell checker to fix my "grammer". After trying to submit my post, for some reason, it needed me to re-authenticate, and for some reason it lost the spelling change, but kept my edit. Anyway, I am unable to re-edit to fix it.
So. grammer is wrong, grammar is correct, Anet's posting tool has a bug or doesn't like firefox, and you'd think after 36 years, I could spell.
Back to topic-
The issue is communication. Maybe someday we'll have some high tech translator or some sort of update device that will notify aircraft of their clearances without requiring radio communications from people to people. But for now, the standard is English (American/South African/Australian/Indian/UK/whatever).
It would be a good idea for international airlines and ATCs (that handle international traffic) to mandate a minimum test for conversational English, using an international standard. This would include the USA and other English speaking countries to cover ICAO terminology.
The other option, albeit it would be difficult, would be to have multi-lingual controllers. It would be pretty difficult to find the proper mix though.
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12706 posts, RR: 58 Reply 74, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13296 times:
As bad as the flight crew were, the ground controller used precious little ICAO standard phraseology.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): Granted, not much of what this controller said is official verbage but anyone who spoke English to the standard would understand what the ATC'r was saying.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72):
How many times did he have to ask this question? Several.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): Not just as far as you're concerned, but it's the official ICAO language.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): He spoke clear English that anyone who spoke English would understand.
This is all dangerous nonsense. Standard phraseology exists for a reason. Every other Western country can manage it, I'm amazed the US has such difficulty. The use of non-standard phraseology causes crashes. Standard phraseology is there to aid controllers - like yourself.
The ridiculous banter about holding short or getting out of the plane to open taxiways is uncalled for, non-standard, agressive and destroys CRM between the flight crew and the ATCO.
'Make a right turn here at Juliette'? is non-sensical - the ATCO is in the tower! Immediately after the flight crew failed to understand that ambiguous and non-standard phraseology, the ATCO raised his voice - which is not professional and destroys CRM. The callsign isn't 'nine eighty one', it's 'niner eight wun' - another case of non-standard phraseology. The ATCO then contacted the flight crew, without identifying himself when he knew they'd be monitoring two frequencies, and asked another ambiguous question without using standard phraseology. The rest of the recording is just an example of a petulant, dangerous ATCO putting his emotions ahead of safe controlling.
As much as the Air China crew were at fault, the entire process would have been easier (and safer) had the ATCO used standard ICAO phraseology. Runway incursions and ground collisions still occur because ATCOs think the banter is acceptable.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 617 posts, RR: 4 Reply 75, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13296 times:
Quoting Mustang304 (Reply 73): It would be a good idea for international airlines and ATCs (that handle international traffic) to mandate a minimum test for conversational English, using an international standard. This would include the USA and other English speaking countries to cover ICAO terminology.
Well, let me ask this question. If the controllers phraseology would have been perfect and TYPED out in front of this pilot, do you think he'd have been able to understand what was said and follow the instruction? I'm not so sure he could have.
Georgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13297 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): I think there is, isn't there? I know when I went up for my Private license, the FAA fella told me that one of the things they check for is a proficiency for English.
I dont think the English problem is so much with the US pilots, but with pilots from other countries where our FAA doesnt have any jurisdiction. Mainly Asia, and yes for whoever made the comment about Indian pilots having perfect english, I have heard more than one that does not. Most of the time people from India have a distinct, and VERY hard to understand english accent. All one needs to do is call United Airlines Reservations!
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): Not just as far as you're concerned, but it's the official ICAO language.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 617 posts, RR: 4 Reply 77, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13243 times:
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 76): but with pilots from other countries where our FAA doesnt have any jurisdiction.
Well, the FAA might not have jurisdiction but ICAO does. And ICAO says English is the official language of aviation and the all pilots must be proficient.
GRIVely From United States, joined Dec 2006, 116 posts, RR: 0 Reply 78, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13152 times:
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37): It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
How many different languages would you recommend that an airline pilot flying for an international carrier learn? After all, they might be landing in a Francophone country one day and into an Arabic-speaking country next. The following week could see them in Brazil and then flying into Mexico City. Oh, that would mean the pilot would need to know both Portuguese and Spanish, plus English for enroute, on the same leg.
You can see then why it probably makes sense to use English as a standard language for international aviation. Having aircraft maneuvering in the vicinity of an airfield where two or three different languages are being used by the various aircraft is a very hair-raising experience. Especially when you don't know the aircraft to your right was just given clearance to land on the same runway you are making for.
That has happened to me when I was in the cockpit for a military flight to provide language support for just that purpose and was able to advise our aircraft commander to break off the approach. When we queried the controller he apologized and said that he was not a native speaker of the language the other flight was using and was talking to his tower mates in yet a third language. (He spoke Cantonese, the other aircraft was using Mandarin and most of the other traffic was using English.) Confusing to say the least.
Everywhere indeed. English is the standard language in aviation.
Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 53): The pilot is very clearly trying to use the standard language that he understands, but the controller continues to speak very quickly and use jargon that a native English speaker might not understand.
That's why standard phraseology is good. But on the ground not everything can be communicated across with pure standard phreaseology. But controllers should keep anything non standard to the minimum and out of local necessity.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): I didn't hear anyone yelling.
I know a good hearing specialist near where you live.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): This is a frustrated controller who is having to devote all his attention to one aircraft because of a language problem that doesn't exist with many other pilots.
By shouting and being impatient he was only lenghthening the time that it takes to resolve the situation.
In this part of the world we deal with this type of situation day in day out. The way we deal with non native English speaker pilots is by default we slow right down when we speak and try to sound as calm as possible. Sticking to standard phreaseology will help a lot.
Chinese pilots are certainly one of the difficult ones. Koreans and Japaneses are not much better neither. You'd be surprised to know that many American pilots have difficulties understanding instructions. CPLs are usually better than PPLs.
In 2 years time ICAO's English language proficiency grading will come into force. It will become mandatory for pilots and controllers to get tested on their ability to listen to, understand and speak English for use on the job. Even native English speakers will be tested. The test will grade candidates from 1 to 6. 6 = native speaker eqivalent and 4 being a pass but requiring recurring tests every year. If you get 3 or below you cannot fly/control. But it's up to the local CAA of the country to administer the tests so standards are likely to vary.
I wonder how many of these pilots (and controllers) will require retraining in aviation english...
Georgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 81, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13059 times:
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 74): 'Make a right turn here at Juliette'? is non-sensical - the ATCO is in the tower! Immediately after the flight crew failed to understand that ambiguous and non-standard phraseology, the ATCO raised his voice - which is not professional and destroys CRM. The callsign isn't 'nine eighty one', it's 'niner eight wun' - another case of non-standard phraseology. The ATCO then contacted the flight crew, without identifying himself when he knew they'd be monitoring two frequencies, and asked another ambiguous question without using standard phraseology.
He is a ground controller at one of the busiest international airports in the world!! He doesnt have time to deal with pilots who cant understand basic English commands! I give him credit for keeping his temper as much as he did. I dont understand why some of you people cant give these guys some slack!
I would like to know how you would have better handeld this situation?? Just remember you got about 25 other flights you are working all while trying to give someone an English lesson.
BoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0 Reply 82, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12999 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 75): Well, let me ask this question. If the controllers phraseology would have been perfect and TYPED out in front of this pilot, do you think he'd have been able to understand what was said and follow the instruction?
Yes!
I agree that every pilot should have sufficient English-talking capabilities. And I mean English, not American. I don't know who suggested that the English and American accent is the same, cause it is not.
Everybody thinks that we should adapt to the English language, and that's fair. But shouldn't you do the same? Making jokes and talking Jersey is not the way to help foreign pilots. One could almost get the idea that ATC likes to make foreign pilots suffer for their poor language capabilities, or else they would use standard phraseology and talk slower.
And don't say that talking slower takes to much time, cause making jokes and embarrassing the pilots takes twice the time as helping him in a calm and slow manner.
Put yourself in his shoes. We're not all the same, nor perfect and in stressful conditions are you any different? Didn't think so.
Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 80):
By shouting and being impatient he was only lenghthening the time that it takes to resolve the situation.
I don't think you know what shouting is. Shouting is what I do to the person down the street when her dog barks loudly in the evenings...what this guy did is not shouting.
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12706 posts, RR: 58 Reply 85, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12884 times:
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 81):
He is a ground controller at one of the busiest international airports in the world!! He doesnt have time to deal with pilots who cant understand basic English commands! I give him credit for keeping his temper as much as he did. I dont understand why some of you people cant give these guys some slack!
I don't want to give an ATCO slack for not doing his job properly. Whilst of course the Air China crew should understand English, the job of the ATCO is to use standard phraseology. I don't care whether he's controller at JFK, Heathrow or a local grass strip. English pilots have entered runways they haven't been cleared to because controllers didn't use standard phraseology - and they speak the language fluently.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 617 posts, RR: 4 Reply 86, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12853 times:
Quoting BoeingOnFinal (Reply 82): One could almost get the idea that ATC likes to make foreign pilots suffer for their poor language capabilities, or else they would use standard phraseology and talk slower.
Happy A.net birthday!
I think you should realize that all, and I mean ALL controllers think that all pilots are stupid and vice versa. I happen to be both. Many don't have the patience to deal with these situations. He probably could have handled this situation better, but the pilot sure didn't help him out. It's unnecessary and could be potentially tragic that these pilots do not speak better English.
Navigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 267 posts, RR: 22 Reply 87, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12822 times:
I think this JFK Controller could have done a calmer job, knowing that Air China does not understand complicated english. This never happens in Europe with it´s much calmer and friendlier controllers.
Just another effort to speak slowly from JFK ATC would improve safety a lot... Not everyone is a New Yorker... This happens to other airlines than Air China with those american ATC primadonnas
Crjflyer35 From United States, joined Nov 2005, 595 posts, RR: 2 Reply 88, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12793 times:
On the same note of Chinese students, it's ridiculous here in Phoenix trying to get flight training done. I fly out of Glendale, but we have planes from Pan Am up at Deer Valley come into the pattern and completely screw it up because you can't understand a word. All I have to say is Thank God for TCAS in my Cirrus when we're in the practive area, because it's impossible to understand their position reports, that is if they even send one on the radio....
safe flying
Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
707lvr From United States, joined Jun 2004, 420 posts, RR: 3 Reply 90, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12746 times:
I think we're all missing the wider issue here. Regarding and treating these pilots like coolies only reinforces the determination of their entire Industry simply to bide their time until they change the whole system to Chinese. I hope no one believes they aren't speaking English because they can't learn English.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 617 posts, RR: 4 Reply 91, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12689 times:
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 85): Whilst of course the Air China crew should understand English, the job of the ATCO is to use standard phraseology
Well, I think you've got to understand that standard phraseology does not apply to every situation. The controller told this guy to taxi via a determined route and hold short of Mike-Alpha. Pilot reads back November. Controller reads the route again and again, the pilot reads back to hold short of November. Mind you, November is nowhere in this taxi clearance. After a third time and the controller stressing to him to hold short of Mike-Alpha and not November does the pilot read back correctly. This then skips to the point where the Air China flight is holding and waiting for ramp clearance. The controller asks if he's been cleared into the ramp. Pilot reads back, roger to the ramp. Controller tries to verify that he's been cleared to the ramp and calls three times before the pilot answers and says "go ahead". "Controller asks again, have you been cleared to the ramp?" Pilot replies, "ok, cleared to the ramp."
Now up to this point the controller has been extremely calm and very understanding of the language barrier. I have to admit I'd start getting a little frustrated here too. Can you blame him? He's asking simple questions and been getting answers as though the controller has cleared this aircraft. Complete language barrier on the part of the pilot.
CaptainTim From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2004, 430 posts, RR: 0 Reply 92, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12688 times:
Wow i laughed my butt off till i fell off my chair..
As a Chinese from Hong Kong, that is a piece of art, i think i'll have that as my ringtone from now on!
that was hiliarious...
but on the serious side yes ATC needs to be aware of the language difference it can be very dangerous.. but dont say some Japanese pilots for some reason are very hard to understand.... i flew into NRT multiple times and it was impossible to understand some of the tower and ground guys...
Gulfstream Planeview Cockpit: "why have hundreds of buttons when a CCD does the same thing and more?"
Georgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 93, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12656 times:
Quoting Navigator (Reply 87): I think this JFK Controller could have done a calmer job, knowing that Air China does not understand complicated english. This never happens in Europe with it´s much calmer and friendlier controllers.
Europe has more experience dealing with different languages. Air China NEEDS to understand english, even complicated english. If there was an emergency he is gonna need to know a little more than, not knowing what "are you cleared to your gate?" means.
Good thing Madonna isn't an ATCO! And that guy didn't even have a New Yorker accent. I am from the mid-west (been to NY) and that sounded VERY casual to me.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 617 posts, RR: 4 Reply 94, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12599 times:
Quoting Navigator (Reply 87): This never happens in Europe with it´s much calmer and friendlier controllers.
Excuse me, but if this happened to you and say that Air China flight started rolling when he wasn't cleared and rolling toward another plane would you raise your voice or very calmly tell this guy that what he's doing is wrong? Before you tell me that I don't know the specifics, you don't either. So don't go trying to tell me that this is a case of being friendly.
Quoting Navigator (Reply 87): This happens to other airlines than Air China with those american ATC primadonnas
American primadonnas. Wow, congratulations, you're now the most ignorant person I've met on A.net. Wasn't it just this last December that a Toronto controller called a female pilot a "stupid ****ing c**t"? Yeah, only us Americans. I've heard stories about you Europeans too...don't think your shit don't stink.
True, but there are some pretty heated arguments here that have taken a southward turn. Ie. Navigators assesment that American ATC'rs are primadonnas. You don't want to lose $5 do you?!?
B777ER From United States, joined Jun 2004, 497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 100, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12206 times:
Quoting PlanenutzTB (Reply 41): I laugh through this entire sound clip, but I also wonder, should I be very scared about flying into and out of JFK. This ATC seemed very stressed out and very out of control of the traffic on the ground at JFK.
That controller on the second link has not won many friends over the years. He did a real bad berating of a maintence crew towing a plane across 13L a while back that the other guys were not proud of to say the least from what I heard. He is a good controller but seems to get stressed when things to go perfectly and at JFK on the evening intl push..things never go swimminly. Throw in bad wx and it turns real ugly real fast for JFK ground.
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 68): How did this "ATC guy" get authorized to work JFK ground without using standard phraseology?
Stand in his shoes at this level 5 facility from say 1800 local on a night with high winds and low clouds. Do his job for just 30 min and see what you think. JFK's taxiway system and the amount of arr/dep's in the late afternoon/early evening is a disaster. My hats off to all the guys in the cab that keep the show running.
LTU932 From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 12313 posts, RR: 57 Reply 102, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12145 times:
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 66): All the reason to learn the phraseology of the countries that you fly to.
Nevertheless, it's still impractical to learn another country's language in order to avoid language problems. English is the language that is used for aviation, end of story. If you can't speak English, regardless of whether you're an air traffic controller or a pilot, then stop working as a pilot/ATC until you've learned proper conversational English. Fortunately, down here in Costa Rica (and in this part of the Central America FIR) it's not such a big problem, because more and more people (not just in the aviation industry) are learning conversational English, so the only problems may arise from understanding the local accent, but at least they are making an effort in trying to be understandable.
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
Gihanjay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 105, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11934 times:
Quoting Mustang304 (Reply 73): I didn't hear anyone yelling. This is a frustrated controller who is having to devote all his attention to one aircraft because of a language problem that doesn't exist with many other pilots. You apparantly don't seem to understand that when you have 20 aircraft on your frequency one aircraft should not be monopolizing the conversing because of a language barrier. That's simply unacceptable in my opinion.
I have to agree with you on this one. When you have one aircraft holding up traffic due to a problem in understanding the basic ATC communications, it can be a frustrated situation. As it is JFK ATC and ground are busy handling so many flight, this makes a simple routine more difficult for the ATC to pay attention everything that is going on.
Smashme33 From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 106, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11735 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37):
US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
Yeah, right. We'd have just about zero international pilots. Think of the personnel crisis your suggestion would cause?
Personnel CRISIS? Are you serious? Learning foreign phraseology would cause no problem. It would actually give pilots more flexibility in foreign airspace. It's funny(or sad) to see how resistant some Anglophones can be to things non-Anglo, but then expect foreigners to walk some kind of line when it comes to English.
Quoting GRIVely (Reply 78): How many different languages would you recommend that an airline pilot flying for an international carrier learn? After all, they might be landing in a Francophone country one day and into an Arabic-speaking country next. The following week could see them in Brazil and then flying into Mexico City. Oh, that would mean the pilot would need to know both Portuguese and Spanish, plus English for enroute, on the same leg.
You probably missed my post after that one. I meant learning the foreign phraseology, not the entire language.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 104): I don't know, how complicated is it to know you're being asked a question and not being given a command?
Quite, because the Chinese language does not use the same vocal pitch changes as English.
Mrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 107, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11690 times:
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 76): Mainly Asia, and yes for whoever made the comment about Indian pilots having perfect english, I have heard more than one that does not. Most of the time people from India have a distinct, and VERY hard to understand english accent. All one needs to do is call United Airlines Reservations!
Well, you can turn this around! Often, we Americans are not understood properly by other nations (with English as prime language), because our accent is too rough to understand! And we should not claim to define the standard for well-spoken English (good grief! ). Don't forget that more English-speakers exist in India than the US. Indian ATC could complain about the American accent (let's say, even Southern, Western...), while even some Europeans - amongst them British - have occasional difficulties to understand us.. since when do we define the standard...? And hopefully never!
Yes. Think of a pilot flying from the US to say Israel or a similar destination. Think of all the languages that person would be required to know. Think about it.
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 106): I meant learning the foreign phraseology, not the entire language.
Oh, ok. Have you ever looked in the 7110.65 to see what exact phraseology there is? It's not a whole lot. It's phrases like "turn right heading" or "turn ten degrees left". I can tell you right now there's no phraseology for asking a pilot if he's been cleared in the ramp area other than what that controller said. It's plain English and he didn't understand what was being said. He was picking up on gate and ramp and assuming he was cleared to proceed.
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 106):
Quite, because the Chinese language does not use the same vocal pitch changes as English.
Again, it's plain English. Are, will, can...these are all words that will without a doubt be questions. This pilot didn't understand that and that's where the fault must ultimately lie in this instance.
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12706 posts, RR: 58 Reply 109, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11612 times:
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 89): Unfortunately attempting to give English lessons isn't in that ATCO's job description.
But using the correct terminology is.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 91): Well, I think you've got to understand that standard phraseology does not apply to every situation. The controller told this guy to taxi via a determined route and hold short of Mike-Alpha. Pilot reads back November. Controller reads the route again and again, the pilot reads back to hold short of November. Mind you, November is nowhere in this taxi clearance. After a third time and the controller stressing to him to hold short of Mike-Alpha and not November does the pilot read back correctly. This then skips to the point where the Air China flight is holding and waiting for ramp clearance. The controller asks if he's been cleared into the ramp. Pilot reads back, roger to the ramp. Controller tries to verify that he's been cleared to the ramp and calls three times before the pilot answers and says "go ahead". "Controller asks again, have you been cleared to the ramp?" Pilot replies, "ok, cleared to the ramp."
Now up to this point the controller has been extremely calm and very understanding of the language barrier. I have to admit I'd start getting a little frustrated here too. Can you blame him? He's asking simple questions and been getting answers as though the controller has cleared this aircraft. Complete language barrier on the part of the pilot
The controller didn't use standard terminology, and complicated things because of it. Yes, I can blame the controller for getting cross and losing his voice: by doing that he entirely compromised the CRM between himself and the crew. Imagine a few minutes later the crew weren't certain if they were cleared to cross a hold. Given the aggressive nature of the ATCO, they don't ask him. They go through the hold, and hit another 747 killing 1000.
ATCOs have to realise their job isn't to get cross or banter with crew. 'Turn here' can be incredibly confusing to a crew, especially one where English isn't the native language. Does it mean turn where the aircraft is, or turn where the tower is? Instead of asking 'have they cleared you to the ramp', which doesn't explain who 'they' are, and the use of 'cleared' suggests that this is a clearance. This is basic, basic stuff! Much like using 'departure' instead of 'take off' when a take off clearance hasn't been given.
Just in case people have any doubt about the potential problems of ATCOs not using correct terminology and compromising CRM:
Smashme33 From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 110, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11355 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 108): Again, it's plain English. Are, will, can...these are all words that will without a doubt be questions. This pilot didn't understand that and that's where the fault must ultimately lie in this instance.
I'm not debating against pilots having decent English abilities when flying into Anglophone airspace. This pilot should have more English training. I understand that the controller had plenty of work to do, but he was not accomodating enough to the situation. If it takes him 25 times to get the correct readback from the pilot, that's what has to happen, as aggravating as it may be. Raising one's voice does nothing but intimidate and cause more confusion. If someone said something to you in a foreign language, and you did not understand, would someone getting hissy and raising their voice make it any clearer to you? Another problem was this controller's use of nonstandard phraseology(which I know has already been mentioned). The more frustrated the controller became, the more jargon he used. Slow, calm, crystal-clear aviation phraseology should have been used with this pilot until he arrived to the gate.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 617 posts, RR: 4 Reply 111, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11257 times:
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 109): Yes, I can blame the controller for getting cross and losing his voice: by doing that he entirely compromised the CRM between himself and the crew.
That had already been compromised because of the lack of verbal communication between crew and controller.
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 109): Imagine a few minutes later the crew weren't certain if they were cleared to cross a hold. Given the aggressive nature of the ATCO, they don't ask him. They go through the hold, and hit another 747 killing 1000.
Your example here does not make any sense. That's the entire reason they should speak and understand English. Imagine you have 20 crews that understood English like this pilot...there would be mass chaos and that wouldn't be the fault of the controller.
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 109): 'Turn here' can be incredibly confusing to a crew, especially one where English isn't the native language.
Picking and choosing your quotes here I see. I do believe he says, "make the right turn here onto taxiway Juliet". Not to mention the fact that the pilot actually understands that he is to turn right onto Juliet and reads that back correctly. He just doesn't understand where to hold short.
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 110): If it takes him 25 times to get the correct readback from the pilot, that's what has to happen, as aggravating as it may be.
And that's why he doesn't just say ^*ck it and continue.
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 110): Raising one's voice does nothing but intimidate and cause more confusion.
I agree, and although I've tried to defend that he was stressed and that stressed out people will raise their voice, apparantly no one can understand that. So lets just say he shouldn't have raised his voice.
Atmx2000 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 43 Reply 112, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11221 times:
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37): It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 66): I think I was misunderstood here. I was saying that it could be a two-way street...Non-Anglophone carriers should learn and practice adequately the English phraseology before being allowed the opportunity to fly to places with English-only ATC. Anglophone pilots should learn the phraseology of the foreign countries that they fly to, that way, if there becomes a misunderstanding in English, the foreign country's language can be the backup.
Why are you picking on native English speaking pilots? It's not a two way street, it's an n-way street. You do realize that non-English speaking pilots would have to learn the other non-anglophone languages? Do you think that is going to work well? Is it reasonable to expect that pilots flying to multiple countries learn the languages of all those countries? And what about passing through airspace of other countries on long haul routes? Do you propose that they learn the languages of every single country they pass over? The reason for choosing one is language is that it is unreasonable to expect a pilot to have knowledge of a multitude of langauges.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4805 posts, RR: 65 Reply 113, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11058 times:
Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 80): In 2 years time ICAO's English language proficiency grading will come into force. It will become mandatory for pilots and controllers to get tested on their ability to listen to, understand and speak English for use on the job. Even native English speakers will be tested. The test will grade candidates from 1 to 6. 6 = native speaker eqivalent and 4 being a pass but requiring recurring tests every year. If you get 3 or below you cannot fly/control. But it's up to the local CAA of the country to administer the tests so standards are likely to vary.
That is a pass/fail item now in our pilot selection process, everyone in the company is in the process of being tested.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 83): Put yourself in his shoes. We're not all the same, nor perfect and in stressful conditions are you any different? Didn't think so.
FYI Cloudyapple would handle more Air China flights in one day than what JFK would do in a month, so I think he is the one who has experience on his side here. I never hear the ATC people here raise their voice like that, nor speak so fast when it is obvious that the content of the transmission is not understood.
The transmissions to me sounded like the controller was totally frustrated, he has no place to take it out on the people paying for his service. Dealing with international flights is part of his job description at JFK.
No individual is expected to speak any language, even his/her own native language, correctly and in a standard way. Acknowledging this fact is a first step towards developing or enhancing communication skills. The standard language of pilot/controller communications is intended to overcome this basic shortcoming that everyone has, native english speaker or not.
A jetblue pilot might give it back as good as that controller gives, thats American culture, in Asian culture, becuase the pilot is getting directions from the controller, he is the subordinate in the relationship, by raising his voice at the pilots they will think they have angered their master. As soon as you raise you voice to the Air China pilots they will automatically become more submissive, which could lead to any reply just to please the "angry master", which is exactly what we heard at the end with the ramp clearance.
The controller did not enunciate each word clearly and distinctly, maintain an even rate of speech (exceeding the ICAO recommended 100 words per minute), and did not maintain the speaking volume at a constant level.
From my point of view the controller failed in the above objectives, which is a latent causal factor waiting for an accident to happen.
BTW having a user name "ATCGOD", and not willing to accept the observations of others is a red flag/threat in every CRM course I have ever been on. My biggest concern if that several people on this thread have outlined how the controller did not use concise transmissions in a normal conversational tone, did not make full use of standard phraseologies prescribed in ICAO documents and procedures, and did not use speech transmitting techniques such that the highest possible intelligibility is incorporated in each transmission.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
GFFgold From Indonesia, joined Feb 2007, 394 posts, RR: 0 Reply 114, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11026 times:
I work as a native speaker teacher of English in S.E. Asia. It is not rocket science to include an English language component - and a STANDARDIZED proficiency test - in the training program for commercial pilots and ATC. Heck, I'd like nothing better than to teach and examine the course myself.
It is an inescapable fact that Chinese speakers have major problems hearing and reproducing some of the basic phonemes (sounds) of English, and that this can only be addressed by extensive practice and exposure to English on a regular basis. A crash (not a pun!) course in ATC-speak is NOT sufficient.
Because of their linguistic background Chinese speakers have a much tougher job learning English than most, and the way English is taught in the PRC really doesn't help.
It is also my experience as a linguist that N American speakers of English have more trouble than most in tuning in to 'foreign' accents. I'm not sure the best way to crack that particular nut!
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 617 posts, RR: 4 Reply 115, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 10991 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 113): The transmissions to me sounded like the controller was totally frustrated, he has no place to take it out on the people paying for his service.
Uh, Air China in absolutely no way pays for the ATC service over here. Get your facts straight. Maybe indirectly (very indirectly through fuel taxes and landing fees) but I don't know anything about those so I'll assume that money goes to the port authority or whoever operates the airport.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 113): As soon as you raise you voice to the Air China pilots they will automatically become more submissive, which could lead to any reply just to please the "angry master", which is exactly what we heard at the end with the ramp clearance.
Knowing Asian cultures is NOT in their job description.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 113): BTW having a user name "ATCGOD", and not willing to accept the observations of others is a red flag/threat in every CRM course I have ever been on.
Insult me all you like, but I think you need to read the posts I've dropped on this thread. I've stated that he could have handled this better, but considering that he had to tell the pilots three times where to hold short of is inexcusable. The fact that he was asking a question and the Air China pilot read back control instructions is inexcusible. You need to understand that ATC's job is to safely expedite the flow of traffic. This pilot prevented that from happening.
I'll tell ya what Zeke...I'll concede that he shouldn't have raised his voice if you'll concede this pilot needs some English lessons. Deal?
CXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1326 posts, RR: 1 Reply 117, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 10871 times:
Mostly rehashed stuff or nitpicking:
Perhaps its actually time to make sure that major international airports have Chinese/French/Spanish-speaking controllers (French and Spanish are also official languages of the ICAO)?
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115): Knowing Asian cultures is NOT in their job description.
But being able to communicate clearly absolutely is. The controller in this case, made it worse by being more complex than necessary.
Quoting GFFgold (Reply 114): It is also my experience as a linguist that N American speakers of English have more trouble than most in tuning in to 'foreign' accents. I'm not sure the best way to crack that particular nut!
A major reason being that many Americans are not exposed to foreign languages as early as those in other countries. Most Americans don't have even basic proficiency in a foreign language. Then again, there are enough Americans who do to ensure that jobs requiring such proficiency are filled and capably executed.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 113): No individual is expected to speak any language, even his/her own native language, correctly and in a standard way.
Particularly with English, which has several major standards, or Mandarin, which has two standards.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72): Not just as far as you're concerned, but it's the official ICAO language.
As an official agency of the UN, it has six official languages: English, French, Spanish, Russian, Arabic, and Mandarin Chinese.
And in countries where these are official, it's often the case that another language may be used: in China, Mandarin, or Russia and Kazakhstan, Russian. Aviation, too, is a multilingual enterprise.
The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4805 posts, RR: 65 Reply 118, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10674 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115):
Uh, Air China in absolutely no way pays for the ATC service over here. Get your facts straight. Maybe indirectly (very indirectly through fuel taxes and landing fees) but I don't know anything about those so I'll assume that money goes to the port authority or whoever operates the airport.
Every airline pays the FAA. Airlines currently pay about 10 billion in ticket and other taxes that currently underwrite much of the air traffic control system, they do pay for the service.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115): Knowing Asian cultures is NOT in their job description.
Nor is knowing how to go to the bathroom or how to use the kitchen, some things do not need to be written down.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115): Insult me all you like, but I think you need to read the posts I've dropped on this thread.
It was an observation on your comments and the name you chose for yourself, nothing else. Your comments like "Knowing Asian cultures is NOT in their job description" and "this pilot needs some English lessons", if indicative of all FAA controllers further strengthens my observations.
It shows that you do not understand that it is the controller that sets the standard of communication in their airspace, not the pilot. By not using standard phraseology and not following other ICAO RT procedures is at the crux of the problem.
If all FAA controllers were perfect, there would be a perfect record for runway incursions and other incidents, and maybe you would not have people taking off on unlit runways. But we know that is not the case.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
YLWbased From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Jan 2006, 545 posts, RR: 5 Reply 119, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10554 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115): Uh, Air China in absolutely no way pays for the ATC service over here. Get your facts straight. Maybe indirectly (very indirectly through fuel taxes and landing fees) but I don't know anything about those so I'll assume that money goes to the port authority or whoever operates the airport.
incorrect, all airlines that serves US of A pay the FAA. God eh, get your facts straight.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115): Insult me all you like, but I think you need to read the posts I've dropped on this thread. I've stated that he could have handled this better, but considering that he had to tell the pilots three times where to hold short of is inexcusable. The fact that he was asking a question and the Air China pilot read back control instructions is inexcusible. You need to understand that ATC's job is to safely expedite the flow of traffic. This pilot prevented that from happening.
I'll tell ya what Zeke...I'll concede that he shouldn't have raised his voice if you'll concede this pilot needs some English lessons. Deal?
i have my total respect to Zeke, and i believe most of the forum do too, just simply check out his RR rating. i'm not going to insult you here, but your RR rating pretty much concludes the story.
P.S. the world "inexcusible" from your previous reply cannot be found in Oxford, Cambridge and Webster Dictionary.
Kelowna - Aviation Gateway of the Central Okanagan
B777ER From United States, joined Jun 2004, 497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 120, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10247 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 113): A jetblue pilot might give it back as good as that controller gives, thats American culture, in Asian culture, becuase the pilot is getting directions from the controller, he is the subordinate in the relationship, by raising his voice at the pilots they will think they have angered their master. As soon as you raise you voice to the Air China pilots they will automatically become more submissive, which could lead to any reply just to please the "angry master", which is exactly what we heard at the end with the ramp clearance.
LOL!! This statement is gold! Everyone that flies into and out of JFK should know you dont "anger the masters", they will have you doing loops up on taxiway P and Q all night. Seriously some of you talk like your reading out of a damn book. Welcome to the real world people! JFK is JFK. All of you wannabe masters of the ICAO language guide need to realize that while you sit and fret over this atc/pilot exchange for the last few days, JFK controllers have been getting planes in and out with no problems just like they do every night and day year in and year out irregardless of ICAO standards or not. If it was so bad in JFK one would think the FAA would be doing something about it no? If those Air China pilots get all upset and start cowering in the cockpit because some controller wants to verify the information then they should stick to flying Harbin's inside China. "Angry masters"....gimme a break.
Kdm From New Zealand, joined Feb 2006, 113 posts, RR: 0 Reply 122, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9995 times:
I remember flying from LA to London on United and listening to channel 12? the entire trip a number of years ago.
When flying over Scotland the ATC was trying to communicate with the American pilot. The scottish ATC gave instructions 4 times, each time the American pilot repeated incorrectly. Finally they got a different ATC to speak to the first officer and the message got through.
Just goes to show it is not only language. In two english speaking Countries with different accents communication between ATC and the Pilot did not work.
YLWbased From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Jan 2006, 545 posts, RR: 5 Reply 123, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9970 times:
Quoting P3Orion (Reply 121): Wrong. FAA phraseology for Air Carriers is in group form; i.e. "Nine eighty one."
as zeke said, the world is a lot bigger then just USA. and USA should be no different from any other country, and should apply standard ICAO phraseology.
Kelowna - Aviation Gateway of the Central Okanagan
Iwok From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1100 posts, RR: 1 Reply 125, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9589 times:
Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 47): Instead, like Zeke says, all ATCs and pilots around the world should be properly trained in and adhering to standard ICAO terminology, which is obviously designed for clear and effective communication.
ICAO terminology will only get you so far. You need to understand the language so that, for example, you can understand that a question is being asked. When people understand terminology only and have no idea of what the context is, you wind up with this...
Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 47): Anyone even with the smallest bit of experience in with dealing with people with limited English abilities would know that getting your point across by saying only as much as needed (and as little as possible sometimes without cutting vital bits out) is the way to go if you want them to understand properly.
Well, I listened to the whole clip. I'll agree that the comments about getting out and clearing the taxiways was inappropriate (fortunately for the crew, they had no idea what was being said . However the ATC had to ask repeat himself multiple times thereafter and it took 5-6 attempts to get the crew to understand that he was asking a question. The crew was to eager to listed for the few words that they understood, without listening for the actual meaning of the sentences.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 35): For your information, in the USA people do not speak English, it is American English, which is different. What seems like a normal sentence to you, may be incomprehensible to an english speaker in South Africa.
Ya okey ey... And Canadians speak Canadian English, Aussies their own blend, South Africans their own blend and so on, yet we can all understand when a question in being asked..
Zvocio79 From United States, joined Nov 2006, 164 posts, RR: 0 Reply 126, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9558 times:
not need to speak english fluently, but they should have at least the technical english they use on their field.
how about ATC speaking more than one language here in the US? do american pilots have to speak chinese, russian or something when flying to those places?
GFFgold From Indonesia, joined Feb 2007, 394 posts, RR: 0 Reply 127, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9525 times:
Quoting Kdm (Reply 122): When flying over Scotland the ATC was trying to communicate with the American pilot. The scottish ATC gave instructions 4 times, each time the American pilot repeated incorrectly. Finally they got a different ATC to speak to the first officer and the message got through.
I bet the scottish controllers dealt with it patiently and didn't get stroppy. People skills are part of the training at CATS.
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4805 posts, RR: 65 Reply 128, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9517 times:
Quoting Iwok (Reply 125): Ya okey ey... And Canadians speak Canadian English, Aussies their own blend, South Africans their own blend and so on, yet we can all understand when a question in being asked..
This same topic came up on pprune, a number of native english speakers piped up and said they had problems with controllers at JFK.
If a number of pilots are all saying the same thing about JFK controllers....what is the common link ..
Quote: True, but Kennedy ATC don't exactly help themselves either. Even those of us that are native english speakers sometimes have trouble!
Quote: I think the ground guy, like most NA controllers needs to A: Slow Down B: Use standard R/T Phraseology C: show a little patience and understanding
sorry but I have every sympathy for Air china in this case...............Next time you have to ask the other guy to translate what Tapei or Tokyo are saying.....................think about this OK ??
Quote: "In the northeast, it seems the controllers love to rapid-fire those radiocalls, often at the expense of clarity, they need to realize that foreign carriers are not in tune with the clipped slang they use over there.
You often hear them repeat 3 or 4 times, which makes you wonder if it wouldn't be better to say those clearances more slowly and clearly, so they can be read back correctly the first time.
Another thing is that the atc controllers there have this lovely new york attitude, and can seem quite intimidating/overbearing at times, a quality that can work badly with some cultures.
Quote: me thinks the RT phraseology at JFK sucks at the best of times, even I dont understand them half the time and I'm English!!! Imagine how
Wun Wing Lo feels
Quote: The controller is just rude...as usual, think there's a case where a Singapore Cargo pilot was in similar situation, got yelled at by the JFK controllers...oh well.
If a number of pilots are all saying the same thing about JFK controllers....what is the common link ..
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
Kdm From New Zealand, joined Feb 2006, 113 posts, RR: 0 Reply 130, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9469 times:
Quoting GFFgold (Reply 127): bet the Scottish controllers dealt with it patiently and didn't get stroppy
Correct, it was handled very professionally by both sides, the American pilot conceded that he didn't understand and offered to hand communication to someone else, like wise the Scottish controller did not raise his voice at all.
That said if he had of been from Glasgow and after several pints of lager he might have got a little aggressive. (Is that PC?, my dad was from Glasgow and I never saw him drunk and aggressive)
Ardian From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 417 posts, RR: 0 Reply 131, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8990 times:
Quoting Lemurs (Reply 34): The problem with that is it proves nothing about how they can fly an airplane in and out of an airport, and worse, it can introduce points of confusion because non-standard language can mean ambiguous instructions. It would be like a hotshot programmer coming into a project that's been written entirely in C++, and deciding that since he's so damned good, he can get back with some assembly here and there. Fine, he can do that just fine, and maybe the guy in the office next to him can read it and understand what he's doing, but the rest of the team is left screwed. If something happens to him, everyone loses because they're not on the same page.
It's one thing to have banter between the correct and effective communications, but it's another to abandon protocol for the banter entirely. It's a protocol for a reason.
Excellent explanation. The best way to communicate: KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid
I see it from both sides: The pilot has really got to improve his English and the ATC must avoid the 'joe cool'.
Imagine the faces of the passengers (who understand a bit about aviation) listening to Channel 9 during this conversation
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12706 posts, RR: 58 Reply 132, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8842 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 111): That had already been compromised because of the lack of verbal communication between crew and controller.
No, not really. The psychological nature of the teamworking changes entirely when the ATCO raises his voice. Another flight crew member ends up speaking to the ATCO - so the ATCO has caused a significant shift in crew workload on the flight deck, at a time where they should be talking to another frequency, looking out for other aircraft and making sure they don't go through holds.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 111): Your example here does not make any sense. That's the entire reason they should speak and understand English. Imagine you have 20 crews that understood English like this pilot...there would be mass chaos and that wouldn't be the fault of the controller.
Or, you can have crews and ATCOs that speak perfect English and don't use standard phraseology, resulting in this:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 111):
Picking and choosing your quotes here I see. I do believe he says, "make the right turn here onto taxiway Juliet". Not to mention the fact that the pilot actually understands that he is to turn right onto Juliet and reads that back correctly. He just doesn't understand where to hold short.
It doesn't matter what quotes I pick and choose! If there is any non-standard phraseology, and confusing commands, then there is scope for problems to occur!
Quoting P3Orion (Reply 121): Wrong. FAA phraseology for Air Carriers is in group form; i.e. "Nine eighty one."
Actually, the FAA also mandates the ICAO phraseology too. It is ridiculous that the FAA is one of the only authorities that changes a simple 'niner eight wun' (which the flight crew will hear every day) to 'nine eighty one'. If the ATCO doesn't realise that something as simple as this can compromise CRM, he's a fool.
Had the aircraft gone through a hold and caused an accident, the ATCO would be on manslaughter charges right now.
PVG From China, joined Dec 2004, 640 posts, RR: 1 Reply 133, posted (2 years 8 months 2 days ago) and read 8472 times:
You think that the JFK thing was bad. You should listen to ch. 9 on UA when we take off from PVG. Imagine an Indian pilot speaking accented english with a Chinese ATC guy speaking broken/accented English. That's repeated all day with these guys talking to people who are not native english speakers. Sounds very dangerous and is a recipe for disaster. Really should be a requirement for all pilots and ATC people working on international flights to be able to communicate at a certain level of clarity. Maybe a special lingo that can be quickly used in situations where the communication is unclear can be developed.
ACFA From Canada, joined Feb 2007, 255 posts, RR: 0 Reply 134, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8322 times:
An AC pilot told me once that if they have a rejected takeoff in PEK, the procedure is to declare a MAYDAY so that ATC stops everything. Previously when they told PEK tower that they were rejecting, the controllers had no understanding and cleared the plane behind them for takeoff anyways.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 617 posts, RR: 4 Reply 135, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8314 times:
Quoting YLWbased (Reply 119): but your RR rating pretty much concludes the story.
Oh, because I don't always voice my opinion and am relatively new to A.net means I know nothing. Right, keep your oh so mighty RR of 2 to yourself. I'm not on here to boost my RR, I saw an opposite point of view and decided to share it. Keep your little jabs to yourself, you don't see me insulting you right? I respect your opinion and Zekes, I just think you're wrong. Isn't that what A.net is about? Perhaps you should respect that I'm offering a different point of view here, and we're just disagreeing.
Well I'll be damned...I actually had to look that up and you're right. I should have looked that up before but just assumed it was a 12. Thanks for correcting me.
Quoting P3Orion (Reply 121): Wrong. FAA phraseology for Air Carriers is in group form; i.e. "Nine eighty one."
You'll never (or very, very, rarely hear "niner eight wun"). Usually only when the previous communications haven't worked for some reason.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 124): Actually either is correct according to the FAA
I couldn't get your link to work.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 128): If a number of pilots are all saying the same thing about JFK controllers....what is the common link ..
My opinion is that it's the severe diversity of dialects and lack of understanding English at that airport.
Quoting Kdm (Reply 130): Correct, it was handled very professionally by both sides, the American pilot conceded that he didn't understand and offered to hand communication to someone else, like wise the Scottish controller did not raise his voice at all.
Very good story...probably what should have been done in this occasion is that the ATC'r should have had a little more patience and kept his voice low but the culpability can't totally lie with him if Air China doesn't read back the right hold instructions or understands a command instead of a question.
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 132): Had the aircraft gone through a hold and caused an accident, the ATCO would be on manslaughter charges right now.
Well, in this case I'd say you're more likely to see one of his other aircraft go through a hold and cross a runway inadvertantly because he's having to pay so much attention to this one aircraft. I used to work at an AFB here in the states that has US and German pilots and let me tell you, when you can't control or figure out what one of those Tornados are saying you have to keep your eye on them...and that has led to seperation violations, airspace violations, etc. All because you're tunnel-visioned on what this one aircraft is doing.
In retrospect if I were this controller I'd cut off comms with him and switch to the light gun. "Air China 981 expect light gun signals". You think he'd understand that when a bright solid red light shone at him? We'll never know but maybe this is something to think about for the future. A pilot you can't understand just gets the light gun signals. Of course, I don't know how that would work with this guy getting into the ramp area.
That sign is in a totally different context. It's translated using a computer and we all know the computer cannot do that perfectly. Whearas when talking about RT, the standard ICAO RT should be sufficient as it is designed to do that. There should be a little background understanding but it is not necessary to learn the Oxford Dicationary.
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12706 posts, RR: 58 Reply 137, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8175 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 135): checkmark You'll never (or very, very, rarely hear "niner eight wun"). Usually only when the previous communications haven't worked for some reason.
You'll always hear "niner eight wun" outside of the US in the Western world, why not in America? ICAO phraseology exists for a reason.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 135):
In retrospect if I were this controller I'd cut off comms with him and switch to the light gun. "Air China 981 expect light gun signals". You think he'd understand that when a bright solid red light shone at him? We'll never know but maybe this is something to think about for the future. A pilot you can't understand just gets the light gun signals. Of course, I don't know how that would work with this guy getting into the ramp area. crossfingers
Which is still agressive and destroys CRM. Do you get any CRM training?
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 617 posts, RR: 4 Reply 138, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8143 times:
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 137): Which is still agressive and destroys CRM. Do you get any CRM training?
It's not aggressive. It's trying something different after the previous method obviously hadn't been working. I'm a pilot and a controller, I know all about CRM.
BTW, I love the pic under "other info" on your user profile. Hilarious.
Raventom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 265 posts, RR: 0 Reply 139, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8136 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 135):
Quoting Zeke (Reply 128):
If a number of pilots are all saying the same thing about JFK controllers....what is the common link ..
My opinion is that it's the severe diversity of dialects and lack of understanding English at that airport.
The common link is the lack of standard RT from both ends.
A342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 3854 posts, RR: 1 Reply 141, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7979 times:
I agree, pilots simply cannot learn all the languages they might need on intl' flights, even if it were just the words they need to communicate with ATC. They might easily become confused between so many different languages.
But I think it would be feasible to pre-record aviation phraseology in languages other than English, just in case one of the parties (ATC or pilots) doesn't understand. This could then be played if needed.
I've read that at DME, in the future, foreign pilots are going to communicate with ATC via text messages, and this includes an automatic translator (Russian <=> English).
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12706 posts, RR: 58 Reply 142, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7922 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 138):
It's not aggressive. It's trying something different after the previous method obviously hadn't been working. I'm a pilot and a controller, I know all about CRM.
Well then do you think that raising your voice - and whether you agree with it, he certainly did that - promotes good communication?
The controller continued to use non-standard phraseology after he realised the crew were having communication problems. Let me ask you, a flight has a radio problem causing low readability - do you use non-standard phraseology?
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 617 posts, RR: 4 Reply 143, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7883 times:
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 111): So lets just say he shouldn't have raised his voice.
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115): I'll concede that he shouldn't have raised his voice if you'll concede this pilot needs some English lessons. Deal?
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 142): Well then do you think that raising your voice - and whether you agree with it, he certainly did that - promotes good communication?
I've not disputed the fact that he raised his voice nor that it was wrong to do so. I've conceded the point and we're beating a dead horse now.
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 4581 posts, RR: 24 Reply 145, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5633 times:
Quoting Georgebush (Reply 98): someone really needs to send that tape to Air China.
As it should be send to that ATC's boss. No one's denying that the Chinese pilot's command of English is a disaster, but ATC guy acting like an arrogant prick did not help the situation either. Maybe he should get a passport and travel a bit to get a reality check and realize that not everyone speaks the same language and/or English slang like guys in his local pub.
Stanley From China, joined Feb 2007, 4 posts, RR: 0 Reply 147, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4228 times:
I am an atc from Chengdu acc in China. ADS-A and CPDLC are in use via L888. On the other hand, about forty foreign aircrafts operate via B330 under radar control everyday. Of course, English is not our native language. We try our best to communicate with the foreign pilots in standard phraseology . But misunderstanding situations occur frequently. Anyway, ICAO advised standard phraseology can not be learned well by the pilots belong to ICAO members,especially the pilots whose native language is English. Accent is yet a factor for some pilots. Moreover, about CPDLC, the transmission speed is not good all the time, although text information can reduce misunderstanding situations.
Dallasnewark From United States, joined Nov 2005, 444 posts, RR: 1 Reply 149, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4115 times:
Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 32): That is just too bad for you then. The consistently best service are all provided mostly by Asian carriers
And you would forego safety just for better service?
Stanley From China, joined Feb 2007, 4 posts, RR: 0 Reply 151, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3858 times:
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 148): HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 19168 posts, RR: 46
Reply 148, posted Mon Apr 23 2007 10:33:58 your local time (12 hours 18 minutes 52 secs ago) and read 314 times:
What numbers of foreign carrier land out there/day.Whats the spacing like.
regds
MEL
There are about 450 scheduled flights per day in Shuangliu airport, and the air flow record for Shuangliu airport is about 520. Meanwhile , there are about twenty foreign scheduled flights in Shuangliu airport,and about forty foreign scheduled flights that operate via B330 and L888 overfly Chengdu area.Our ACC have four sectors, three sectors are under radar control, the separation for two aircrafts at same FL is 40KM for radar control.However, our neighbour Lanzhou ACC is not under radar control, so the separation is ten minutes for two aircrafts at same FL from Chengdu ACC to Lanzhou ACC. On the other hand, L888 is FANS route with procedual separation.
Regards.
Smashme33 From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 152, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3666 times:
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 112): Why are you picking on native English speaking pilots? It's not a two way street, it's an n-way street. You do realize that non-English speaking pilots would have to learn the other non-anglophone languages? Do you think that is going to work well? Is it reasonable to expect that pilots flying to multiple countries learn the languages of all those countries? And what about passing through airspace of other countries on long haul routes? Do you propose that they learn the languages of every single country they pass over? The reason for choosing one is language is that it is unreasonable to expect a pilot to have knowledge of a multitude of langauges.
Perhaps if you would read the thread, you would not believe that I would want people to learn all kinds of complete languages. Just the phraseologies of the countries that they fly to...as a backup measure in case there is a misunderstanding. Maybe even carry little foreign language phraseology sheets in the cockpit. It would work well if effort was actually put into it.
ATCGOD From United States, joined Aug 2006, 617 posts, RR: 4 Reply 153, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3649 times:
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 152): Maybe even carry little foreign language phraseology sheets in the cockpit. It would work well if effort was actually put into it.
I just don't think it's feasible. "Hang on approach, let me get my phraseology sheet out." It'll never happen and is just not do-able. Pilots have enough to worry about without having 20 phraseology sheets flying around the cockpit.
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