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Cathay Pacific Heads For Frequency Not Capacity  
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 14166 times:

Brief presentation on product update by Cathay Pacific's sales rep in my office for the week of 09APR07....highlights on fleet

*Boeing no longer takes orders for 747s (which I corrected him)

*At this stage, Cathay Pacific's mind is "frequency over capacity" at this point, which they prefer to provide high-frequency service to regional route, one of the airline's main core market as well as the long route.

*The airline is happy with their decision to step away from A380 because "they don't know when they'll ever be delivered".

132 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3314 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 14120 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
*At this stage, Cathay Pacific's mind is "frequency over capacity" at this point, which they prefer to provide high-frequency service to regional route, one of the airline's main core market as well as the long route.

Good strategy, especially when chasing the premium pax....

Offer them a good J class product, and 3 frequencies per day rather than 1 monster A380, and 9 times out of 10 you will get them.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 13911 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
*Boeing no longer takes orders for 747s (which I corrected him)

That dumb remark of him is enough to dismiss al his other 'knowledge', that he's just a sales rep only adds to that.

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
*The airline is happy with their decision to step away from A380 because "they don't know when they'll ever be delivered".

When did the airline ever take that decision?  scratchchin  And the reason he quoted...  rotfl 

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 1):

Offer them a good J class product, and 3 frequencies per day rather than 1 monster A380,

This comparison isn't valid. Cathay Pacific (OK, I know Dragonair does) doesn't fly aircraft with 150 to 185 seats (1/3 the capacity of the A380). If they would replace 3 flights ( smallest aircraft in their fleet are the A330's) with only one A380 they'd be reducing frequency and capacity.



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User currently offlineCrazyHorse From Austria, joined Nov 2005, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 13841 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
This comparison isn't valid. Cathay Pacific (OK, I know Dragonair does) doesn't fly aircraft with 150 to 185 seats (1/3 the capacity of the A380). If they would replace 3 flights ( smallest aircraft in their fleet are the A330's) with only one A380 they'd be reducing frequency and capacity.

CX flies to Australia with "small" aircrafts (A330-300) and try to boost their frequency on this market and it seems that CX do quite well with this way. Other airlines operates much bigger aicrafts to their australian gateways than CX does.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 13766 times:

Quoting CrazyHorse (Reply 3):
CX flies to Australia with "small" aircrafts (A330-300) and try to boost their frequency on this market and it seems that CX do quite well with this way.

Sure, as long as desirable slots are easy and affordable to get, no problems. But once these are problematic to come by the best solution to grow is upgrading equipment.

Getting back to my previous post. Their smallest capacity is on the 3 class A343 and has 243 seats, their biggest capacity aircraft of the same family seats 333 people on the 2 class A333. My point being, 3 of these do not equal an A380.

CX currently operates 4 daily flights to LHR, offering roughly 1300 seats. Rather then trying to get their hands on slots in a 'soon to be ' even more crowded LHR. Upgrading some (starting with CX251 and CX255), and after a while all of them to the A380 might work well for them. How many more daily frequencies are desired on a 12 hour flight? Meanwhile, while waiting for the A380 to arrive, the A340s can be upgraded to 747s.



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User currently onlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 13764 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
*Boeing no longer takes orders for 747s (which I corrected him)

That dumb remark of him is enough to dismiss al his other 'knowledge', that he's just a sales rep only adds to that.

...making one incorrect comment doesn't mean he doesn't know anything....if you are incorrect on one comment Manni, should we dismiss everything you say too....? Wink



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User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2910 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 13697 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
CX currently operates 4 daily flights to LHR, offering roughly 1300 seats. Rather then trying to get their hands on slots in a 'soon to be ' even more crowded LHR. Upgrading some (starting with CX251 and CX255), and after a while all of them to the A380 might work well for them. How many more daily frequencies are desired on a 12 hour flight? Meanwhile, while waiting for the A380 to arrive, the A340s can be upgraded to 747s.

I imagine CX will not buy four or five A380s just for HKG-LHR. If anything, BA could handle the overnights and CX could just operate all the long-hauls with 77W, if need be.

As a sidenote, between 2315 & 0035, there are six 744 flights between QF, BA & CX on the HKG-LHR. That's sick. This doesn't include VS, which probably flies around the same time.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 13690 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
...making one incorrect comment doesn't mean he doesn't know anything....i

True. But the comment he made is so significant (incorrect) that it does sound that he doesn't know anything at all about the issues brought forward.



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User currently offlineZoom1018 From Vietnam, joined May 2005, 228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 13660 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
But the comment he made is so significant (incorrect) that it does sound that he doesn't know anything at all about the issues brought forward.

Could he just want to mean 747-400 passenger ?


User currently offlineCrazyHorse From Austria, joined Nov 2005, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 13641 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
Sure, as long as desirable slots are easy and affordable to get, no problems. But once these are problematic to come by the best solution to grow is upgrading equipment.

CX could send the B77W or their B747-400 to Australia to increase their capacity on this route, if their is an big increase in demand on this routes.
A380 is to big for this route and CX know´s this.

Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
Getting back to my previous post. Their smallest capacity is on the 3 class A343 and has 243 seats, their biggest capacity aircraft of the same family seats 333 people on the 2 class A333. My point being, 3 of these do not equal an A380.

But two A343 will be the same capacity as one A380, and one A380 lost about 150 seats to two A333 on the same route. Business travellers loves frequency and CX knows this and do this on their route network and they do damm right.
The only route in their network which could fit a A380 is LHR, but I don´t think that CX will buy the Superjumbo for only one big destination.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 13623 times:

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 6):
I imagine CX will not buy four or five A380s just for HKG-LHR.

Neither do I. There will be more routes found suitable for the A380. CDG and FRA both have 10 weekly flights, 3 operated by A340's. These aircraft stay on the ground for 12 hours. The A380 could reduce the number of flights to 7 a week without reducing capacity and free up the extra aircraft, cabin crew, pilots needed now. Other A380 destinations could be LAX, JFK and YVR. After they've added capacity by upgrading their A340s to 773ER's or 744s perhaps. If the A380 turns out to be able to do what it is supposed to do and passenger growth keeps increasing I can imagine that there'l be a dozen A380s within 10 years from now ordered and delivered to CX.



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User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 13582 times:

Quoting CrazyHorse (Reply 9):
A380 is to big for this route and CX know´s this.

I wasn't talking about this route in particular.

Quoting CrazyHorse (Reply 9):
But two A343 will be the same capacity as one A380, and one A380 lost about 150 seats to two A333 on the same route. Business travellers loves frequency and CX knows this and do this on their route network and they do damm right.

With the exception of Australia the A330 is only used on intra Asian flights. If CX do order the A380 I'd say they'll use them for their intercontinental services.

BTW, An A343 and an A380 would offer about 150 seats more then 2 A330s. Including a whole lot more business and first class seats, business travellers love those seats...  Wink

Quoting CrazyHorse (Reply 9):
The only route in their network which could fit a A380 is LHR, but I don´t think that CX will buy the Superjumbo for only one big destination.

Neither do I. However there's a precedent I think. Didn't CX lease initially A346s just for their JFK services?



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User currently onlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 13518 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
True. But the comment he made is so significant (incorrect) that it does sound that he doesn't know anything at all about the issues brought forward.



Quoting Zoom1018 (Reply 8):
Quoting Manni (Reply 7):
But the comment he made is so significant (incorrect) that it does sound that he doesn't know anything at all about the issues brought forward.

Could he just want to mean 747-400 passenger ?

...that might have been a possibility....one never really knows....



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User currently offlineCrazyHorse From Austria, joined Nov 2005, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 13483 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
With the exception of Australia the A330 is only used on intra Asian flights. If CX do order the A380 I'd say they'll use them for their intercontinental services.

The A330 is a great aircraft and do a great job for CX on their routes to OZ.
CX could order the A380 for their intercontinental service, but I think CX will order the B747-8i for this service and will go with Airbus for their replacement aircraft on the intra Asian and Australian flights.
Not every route is big enough for the Superjumbo and maybe CX will earn more money with more frequency.

Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
BTW, An A343 and an A380 would offer about 150 seats more then 2 A330s. Including a whole lot more business and first class seats, business travellers love those seats...

But the airline had to fill this seats every day with a good yield. Wink

Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
Neither do I. However there's a precedent I think. Didn't CX lease initially A346s just for their JFK services?

Agree, but many Asian airlines have bought a ULH aircraft for New York and the most airlines are not happy with this route. Thai lost good money with ther A340-500 service to New York.
And the A380 is not really a aircraft for such special flights.


User currently offlineSkyGazer From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 13394 times:

Frequency not capacity?

That reads "787, not A380" to me, if there's a potential order on the books  Wink



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User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 13394 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Brief presentation on product update by Cathay Pacific's sales rep in my office for the week of 09APR07....highlights on fleet

*Boeing no longer takes orders for 747s (which I corrected him)

*At this stage, Cathay Pacific's mind is "frequency over capacity" at this point, which they prefer to provide high-frequency service to regional route, one of the airline's main core market as well as the long route.

*The airline is happy with their decision to step away from A380 because "they don't know when they'll ever be delivered".

Typical sales rep training. Take the company policy of the moment, and try to create a good justification.

With the forthcoming arrival of both the 380 and the 787, I'm sure there's going to be a lot more of this floating around.


User currently offlineAircanada014 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 13386 times:

Same goes for AC, passengers prefer more frequency flights meaning more choices of departure times.

User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2179 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 12667 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 1):
Offer them a good J class product, and 3 frequencies per day rather than 1 monster A380,
This comparison isn't valid. Cathay Pacific (OK, I know Dragonair does) doesn't fly aircraft with 150 to 185 seats (1/3 the capacity of the A380).

The Dragonair A320s don't really count. The A380 is a long haul airplane, and everybody understands that the A380 would of course not replace the A320s on flights to cities in mainland China. The A380 in CX colors would replace the 747s that Cathay currently flies to major destinations in Europe and North America.

Quoting CrazyHorse (Reply 3):
Other airlines operates much bigger aicrafts to their australian gateways than CX does.

That's not true. IIRC, most CX flights are on 3-class A333s with 251 seats. Most other airlines flying between Asia and Australia use A330s, A340s, 747s and 777s with between 240-380 seats. You'd be hard pressed to find an airline that uses airplanes with more than 380 seats between Asia and Australia. So it's more correct to say that other airlines operate aircraft of similar size or up to 50 percent bigger.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 6):
As a sidenote, between 2315 & 0035, there are six 744 flights between QF, BA & CX on the HKG-LHR. That's sick. This doesn't include VS, which probably flies around the same time.

Which is an evidence suggesting that frequency is not that important on flights of 12 hours or more. The reason why both QF, BA, CX and VS all leave at around the same time is that most businessmen want a full day's work in Hong Kong and a full day's work in London. A flight at midnight is the only possibility of accommodating that majority of businessmen.

Quoting CrazyHorse (Reply 9):
A380 is to big for this route and CX know´s this.

Everybody knows this. But in another 5-7 years from now, the A380 could be the right size for routes where CX today operates 744s.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
...making one incorrect comment doesn't mean he doesn't know anything....if you are incorrect on one comment Manni, should we dismiss everything you say too....?

Of course not, but when somebody doesn't know that Boeing is selling 747s, that says something about that person's knowledge about fleet planning.

Quoting Zoom1018 (Reply 8):
Could he just want to mean 747-400 passenger ?

Unlikely. The thread starter said that he "corrected him," and it seems that the guy didn't clarify that he meant the 744-pax. Unless the thread starter is only telling us parts of the truth, he was clearly talking about the 747 as such.

Which makes me wonder: Since a sales guy from CX apparently doesn't know about the 748, does this mean that the 748 is a non-issue at CX headquarters? If the 748 would have been a likely future airplane in the CX fleet, you would think that he would know something about this airplane...?

Quoting Manni (Reply 11):
Neither do I. However there's a precedent I think. Didn't CX lease initially A346s just for their JFK services?

They did, but you have to remember that they already operated a big A343/A333 fleet, so fleet commonality made the integration of a small number of A346s easier. Plus, at the time when CX ordered the A346, there were very few other airplanes which could make that flight with a full load.



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User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 12626 times:

Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 14):
Frequency not capacity?

That reads "787, not A380" to me, if there's a potential order on the books

Perhaps it has already been placed, with all the UFO's listed on the Boeing website for the 787.



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User currently offlineA380US From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 12511 times:

Quoting CrazyHorse (Reply 13):
Agree, but many Asian airlines have bought a ULH aircraft for New York and the most airlines are not happy with this route. Thai lost good money with ther A340-500 service to New York.
And the A380 is not really a aircraft for such special flights.

im not sure if TG necissarily lost money but i think they could have mademore money with a stop also because cargo was very limited and is a big source of income



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User currently offlineZoom1018 From Vietnam, joined May 2005, 228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12271 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 17):
A flight at midnight is the only possibility of accommodating that majority of businessmen.

What I have learned so far is that midnight flights (long-haul) are more comfortable for passengers and are better for aircraft utilising. Businessmen may have to rush so a midnight flight doesn't help them.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3964 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 12103 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
This comparison isn't valid. Cathay Pacific (OK, I know Dragonair does) doesn't fly aircraft with 150 to 185 seats (1/3 the capacity of the A380). If they would replace 3 flights ( smallest aircraft in their fleet are the A330's) with only one A380 they'd be reducing frequency and capacity.

Your reasoning is incorrect so may I suggest words like "dumb" are not used to describe what other people say?

Say Cathay places three flights with smaller aircraft on a route, instead of one A380. It should see significantly more traffic with the three flights. Their service on the route will be more attractive than their competitors', and they will leverage their network around Hong Kong to obtain connecting traffic they otherwise would not.

Take a route like Jakarta to Hong Kong. If they offer a single A380, the Jakarta passengers will have limited or no connections to longhaul services. If they offer three A330 services, they become a much more attractive choice to Jakarta travelers going to almost anywhere outside of SE Asia. Thus much more traffic.


User currently offlineCoa747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 11952 times:

Cathay will not order the A380 at this time seems cut and dry. It would seem that this is just one more indication of a industry wide move away from jumbo jets. People talk about how LHR could sustatin an A380 by Cathay but fail to consider that if every airline who now operates HGK-LHR switched to an A380 on that route it would dump a whole lot of extra seats on the market and even a premium route like that may not have enough demand to fill all those seats. Even mega markets like LHR have their limits. I just don't see the business case for the A380 for Cathay and obviously they don't either. This is a more important move to me than ANA's recent decision to dispose of their 747-400 fleet.

User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 11655 times:

First of all sales rep are not like us sitting here 24/7 to figure out who makes what and who buys what, he is only trying to get people to sell CX, apart from the 747 thing, the rest of the thing that was mentioned pretty much matches what CX said previously.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 21):
Take a route like Jakarta to Hong Kong. If they offer a single A380, the Jakarta passengers will have limited or no connections to longhaul services

Correct example. Apart from slot-restricted airports, CX believes offering frequent service gives passenger more choices and more loyalty.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29684 posts, RR: 84
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 11566 times:
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I have to admit the A380 looks absolutely stunning in CX livery:

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00006518.jpg
Image by Henry Lam based on his template. Provided courtesy of Modified Airliner Photos


I still believe it is far too early to write CX off for the A388. HKG-LHR and HKG-LAX could both be reasonable destinations for the plane and with the influx of 777-300ERs coming into the fleet, CX can indeed pursue their "frequency over capacity" philosophy for the next half-decade or so and then make a decision on whether to increase capacity.

The 747-8I probably still has a better then average chance of flying in CX colors thanks to CX Cargo having a better then average chance of acquiring the 747-8F. However, CX is a customer for the 744BCF so they have plenty of 744s available for conversion which may cover their needs.


25 MaverickM11 : You'll get more traffic with more frequency, not with bigger aircraft. How do you think it's possible for United to fly ORD-SYR 6 times a day with 70
26 Cloudyapple : This is indeed well known in the industry, it's not news at all. Looking at Cathay's growth pattern over the last 10 years, it's pretty clear. He mea
27 RedChili : I checked the schedule and found out that Qantas even puts lots of 763s on flights from Hong Kong to Australia, so their biggest direct competitor ac
28 Jimyvr : No, the theory is similar is similar although the orientation is different league.
29 Post contains images MaverickM11 : You might want to try that again . Hub traffic flows operate under similar principles whether they're peanuts or watermelons.
30 Post contains images Glideslope : Looks like another Boeing forecast to me.
31 RedChili : The theory is not similar at all, for many reasons: 1. With a two-hour flight ORD-SYR, it's possible to work a couple of hours in Chicago in the morn
32 Post contains images MaverickM11 : All completely irrelevant. The point is that greater frequency is going to generate more traffic than bigger aircraft when you are running a hub. Two
33 RedChili : I disagree with you concerning this. Greater frequency will not necessarily generate more traffic on long haul flights, because of the factors I ment
34 JAL : It sounds like no A380 for CX!
35 MaverickM11 : It's the whole reason hubs exist. It's the fundamental raison d'etre for hubs. There are more factors than just "more frequency"--plane availability
36 RedChili : Once more, I disagree with you. The reason for hubs is not to be able to send lots of small airplanes on long haul flights. In my opinion, the reason
37 EXAAUADL : Then they will need a narrowbody like the A320 or 737 family
38 Jfk777 : The Cathay 773ER are going to be every where the A340 and 744 are. Toronto nonstop will be a great 777 city for Cathay. SFO, JFK, LHR and LAX will als
39 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...of course, EK packs more pax in their B773s than most carriers to in their B744's.... ....that being said, I don't expect CX to be looking at eith
40 ZK-NBT : QF is now a daylight flight from HKG-LHR leaving HKG at 0800ish. LHR won't see CX 77W's for a few years yet, currently you can't fly a twin on the ro
41 Zeke : The company will tend to start a new service with the 343, on a long thin route, develop the market, then put a larger aircraft on it. All the commen
42 XT6Wagon : Or you can buy a 748 and get lower trip costs, making it possible to put one on a route sooner, and make more money as it develops. You also save wit
43 OldAeroGuy : Huh? Why do you think that? If AF can fly a 773ER on HKG-CDG, what stops CX from flying a 773ER on HKG-LHR? The 773ER has more than enough range to d
44 Zeke : The 748i and A380 do not provide lower trip costs over a second hand 744. You know very little of our operation by making that comment about mechanic
45 Cslusarc : I'm still surprised that CX still flies A343s to/from LHR on a daily basis. I expected that LHR was a 744 exclusive destination.
46 OldAeroGuy : It appears that AF flies 777's almost exclusively on the CDG-HKG route. So the issue is one of local regulation rather than airplane related. A blank
47 Zeke : I didn't make a blanket statement, it was very specific, and relevant to the thread, unlike your AF comment.
48 XT6Wagon : By the time the 777 is "obsolete" its very likely that it would be worth the wait for a look at Y3, after all I bet they got alot more on their plate
49 Zeke : I suggest you read the annual report, before commenting further. You are way off the mark. I suppose with the discounts that Boeing are splashing abo
50 RayChuang : I personally think that Cathay Pacific wants assurances it can fly the A380-800 at the MTOW in Cathay's configuration non-stop year-round westbound fr
51 Jakob77 : 744s are gonna be a thing of the past on North American routes 744s can't even operate non-stop with full payload even from SFO during the winter time
52 2wingtips : Gee, what a general blanket statement. Evidence, please, or is that your excuse why the 748 has decimated the A380 since formally being offered for s
53 ZK-NBT : You mean it has I take it, CX A343's have been at YYZ for years now. I think a route like LAX may go 4x daily with 2x 744's and 2x 77W's. I see thoug
54 Stitch : While SQ had expressed such reservations for SFO-HKG service, that they have added even more seems to imply that Airbus has proven this to their sati
55 MaverickM11 : Frequency is not the reason for hubs but the fundamental component of hubs. The reason you can operate 6 ORD/SYR a day is because you also have 6 ORD
56 RedChili : Would you care to put this in English for those of us who are aviation dyslektiks... dylsectix... dislictics... never mind!!! Please, remember that t
57 United Airline : CX will probably order the B 747-8 to replace their B 747-400s when the time comes. They are still taking delvery of second hand B 747-400s right?
58 Jacobin777 : IIRC...I have seen A346's a couple of times at YYZ.... ...care to explain long routes such as ORD-LHR, JFK-LHR, DXB-LHR, HKG-NRT, HKG-BKK, NRT-BKK, et
59 Ken777 : If I'm stuck in cattle class I would probably take the day time flight. Sleep late in HKG and stay awake during the flight. That's basically what I d
60 WingedMigrator : The curious fact remains that no passenger airline has purchased the 748I instead of the A388.
61 Cloudyapple : Biz centre to biz centre + hub to hub = super high demand = multiple longhaul departures throughout the day It's a bit blanket but this is so because
62 Jacobin777 : still long haul with tons of frequency....which was the point of my comment.... ....."special" is relative...the point is there are a lot of semi-lon
63 VH-BZF : I've heard from CX staff here in Australia that Cathay intend to increase their Melbourne flights to 3 x daily by August/September this year. Their lo
64 Zeke : That is correct, a few more 333s will be joining the fleet in the coming months for this.
65 United Airline : LH?
66 Cloudyapple : I was not disuputing your comments, you didnt have to go into defensive mode. I was merely saying there were longhauls operating more than once a day
67 RedChili : I agree with Cloudyapple that HKG-NRT, HKG-BKK and NRT-BKK don't qualitfy as long-haul flights. My last flight BKK-HKG lasted 2 hours and 4 minutes,
68 Ken777 : I actually took a long haul flight on a 707 - HNL to SYD on PanAm in Dec '72. Great flight and the food in cattle car was better than First today. The
69 Cloudyapple : Trip cost and economy of scale. The numbers simply wont add up to make such long thin flights viable. The only longhaul small aircraft are the BBJs a
70 Sv2008 : Why? I guess you travel business class or something all the time. For economy (all I've ever flown, and probably will) an over night flight isn't gre
71 Stitch : I fly First and Business internationally, but I don't sleep on planes so I much prefer daylight flights to overnights so I can land in the evening at
72 NA : Lets see what CX will do once other airlines operate A380s and 748Is into Hong Kong. The higher comfort, more modern interior and increased fuel econo
73 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...ok..just trying to make sure there wasn't any ambiguity.. I never said ORD-SYR was "long haul"....for me, anything longer than 4 hours is long eno
74 MaverickM11 : All I'm saying is that the same principles that make six daily short hops to a hub work are behind the two daily nonstops from that hub to Asia. High
75 Post contains links RedChili : Agree. You need a certain number of passengers to make long-haul flights viable. Actually, I too prefer daylight flights whenever possible. But I'm u
76 NA : Lets hope so. One thing I forgot: More frequency also means more noise. And that IS an increasingly growing important factor in the 21st century.
77 RedChili : I'm not sure which flights to Asia you're talking about here, as the route which I mentioned, ORD-PVG, only has one daily nonstop. But anyway, it see
78 Jacobin777 : ..the day a manufacture(s) come up with a single isle plane which has the economics of flying single-isle from say IND-LGW, will clean up house.....
79 Post contains images Stitch : Fortunately the A388, A350XWB, and 787 are the quietest generation of widebodies yet.
80 RedChili : Perhaps. So far, it seems that the manufacturers are not even trying to make such a plane. If what you're saying here is correct, then I believe that
81 NA : Add the 747-8I to it, it´ll be comparable to the 787 as it has virtually the same engines. Still the more aircraft, the more noise. As I´m living n
82 Jacobin777 : ...no I don't agree..simply because the economics doesn't exist at this point in time...especially regarding engine capabilities... .....30 years ago
83 RedChili : I don't think I agree with you. Thirty years ago, the majority of trans-Atlantic flights were on airplanes such as the 707, DC-8, Tristar, DC-10, and
84 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..the amount of pax has gone up "x" fold in the past 30 years....especially since deregulation....but one thing for sure, route fragmentation has occ
85 RedChili : This is something which I agree partly with. I would not say that they're using smaller airplanes today, but that the "small" airplanes are used on d
86 Zeke : What does that have to do with CX ? we do not have a secondary airport in Hong Kong, we will still fly to major hubs regionally and long haul. We are
87 MaverickM11 : ORD-PVG is subject to strict bilateral constraints, but UA flies HKG and NRT up to twice daily from ORD. Idunno what there is to disagree about; it's
88 Gemini573 : I think it is important. From a passengers standpoint, I would prefer the frequency. I could care less about the aircraft. Out of LAX, CX has 3 daily
89 GuyBetsy1 : Problems with sales reps are that they will try to sell the airline and forget that sometimes people know more than they do of their own airlines' op
90 MaverickM11 : This is also true.
91 Jacobin777 : .....for all the whoopla about this, a strong well-run carrier will do well regardless of fragmentation or not....post Y2K has forced airlines to "ge
92 Zeke : Only because you dont know the history of KA and CNAC, KA and CA are feeders to the CX long haul network. CX just bought back what used to be theirs,
93 RedChili : Two daily flights is hardly what I would call "frequency over capacity." It just shows that the demand on the route is so big so that one flight woul
94 MaverickM11 : I said the same traffic flow principles that govern ORD/SYR govern ORD/NRT. You think they're different. All things being equal, they're not. When yo
95 RedChili : So, you do understand what we disagree about! Or maybe you don't understand what I'm saying... I'm not saying that frequency used to be important ear
96 RayChuang : Given how hard it is to get a ticket on the SQ 001/002 route, they can forget about assigning the 777-300ER on this route, especially since switching
97 Stitch : Which is interesting because earlier this decade Boeing projections showed 747 movements at HKG diminishing over time, though 787/777 and A330/A340-s
98 MaverickM11 : I'm saying it is important and given the opportunity, even long haul routes like ORD/PVG will trend in the same direction that ORD/SYR has in terms o
99 Jacobin777 : CX has already stated that they are not interested in either the B748I or A380 for years to come.....what does that tell you?
100 Lutfi : Actually, even on long hauls, departure times make a difference. E.g., LON – HKG Cathay have flights arriving at 0725, 1310, 1540 and 17:50. Each of
101 Zeke : I know exactly what it means, but it not what you are trying to imply. We are expanding rapidly, increasing the number of pilots each year for the ne
102 Jacobin777 : .....exactly..an increase in fleet size of 40% w/out adding the A380.....more planes and more frequency......which seems the kind of strategy what yo
103 Zeke : Evidence please....oh sorry thats right you don't know, your just guessing....the fleet increase will be for frequency in existing markets AND expans
104 Jacobin777 : ..and I explicitly stated B748 and A380 potentially coming in online...granted I omitted the B744's, but I did include B777's and A330's.... ....funn
105 Jacobin777 : possibly incorrect, the "final" B77W's won't won't be delievered by 2010....only 16 of the potential 36 B773ER's will be delivered by 2010.....that l
106 Zeke : I don't see any report, it is a third hand comment of what a CX sales rep allegedly said, it does not provide any strategic insight as you are trying
107 2wingtips : I ask for evidence, which obviously gets ignored by you as you can't possibly provide any and you have the temerity to ask others for evidence in you
108 Zeke : PAL, It is common knowledge, i.e. been reported in the press and elsewhere that LH got over 40% discount on their 748-i (e.g. Avitas say LH pay $3.2
109 Dab920 : Expect an announcent from CX 'soon' regarding some fleet changes/additions.
110 Stitch : Can't speak for ORD, but I do remember that from SEA we used to have flights to DEN and SFO in the morning that left within 10 minutes of each other
111 PolymerPlane : 40% discount is not surprising at all. That's around the norm for widebody discount, according to the AVITAS numbers. That is the going rate even for
112 Stitch : This year's 748-8F orders have been averaging a greater then 40% discount, as well, per AVITAS.
113 Airbus_A340 : New A340-600 information is floating around, which may be in line with Dab920's comments.
114 Lehpron : Glad you bolded the latter, I wonder how many people caught that? I'm stuck on this type of issue, yeah airlines claim their customers are asking for
115 Jacobin777 : ..what does that have to do with CX? All majour carriers get great deals.......we all know the deals the various carriers got on the A380's...to the
116 RedChili : It tells me exactly the same as the Cathay sales rep quoted by the thread starter ("at this point"), and Zeke in reply 101. That Cathay will wait a f
117 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...basically what I gather is no one (not even CX) know what's going to happen...i.e.-they will decide in a few years what to get after evaluating ma
118 RedChili : Cathay is a very well-run airline. I'm quite sure that the board of CX has a long-range plan, and that long-range plan possibly includes tentative pl
119 Jacobin777 : ..I guess I won't disagree with that..but as you stated, the world changes quite a bit in 10 years.....
120 2wingtips : And you said discounts that Boeing are "splashing about". Anybody with any sense of knowledge about the industry would know that a 40% discount was p
121 Zeke : Philip Chen the CX CEO at the time made a comment about the new aircraft "More aircraft will allow us to have more flights, new destinations and grea
122 2wingtips : You fail to address the issue repeatedly on whether these big discounts are abnormal. I contend they are not. It's part of the business to secure the
123 Zeke : Who said abnormal ? Launch discounts are quite normal from both A & B for new models.
124 Post contains images Stitch : When it comes to Boeing deals, the Seattle Times reports both the list price and the AVITAS valuation, so that is where I have been getting my 2007 i
125 CX flyboy : Interesting that amongst all the debate, the post about an announcement 'soon' and the A340-600 rumours does not even generate a slight comment!! To m
126 Post contains links Cloudyapple : We had a thread a few weeks back but Zeke almost discounted it unless there's some new development. Rumour: 10xA346s For Cathay (by Cloudyapple Feb 5
127 Post contains links Cloudyapple : We had a thread a few weeks back but Zeke almost discounted it unless there's some new development. Rumour: 10xA346s For Cathay (by Cloudyapple Feb 5
128 Post contains links Cloudyapple : We had a thread a few weeks back but Zeke almost discounted it unless there's some new development. Rumour: 10xA346s For Cathay (by Cloudyapple Feb 5
129 RedChili : If the official Cathay line is that the rumor is not true, then Zeke as a Cathay employee will have to stick with that line on a public forum. So, ev
130 CX flyboy : I think you boys are smart enough to come to your own conclusions on something which is clearly stated as a rumour. This is supposedly an anonymous fo
131 Trex8 : would these A346s be the planes EK had originally ordered???
132 RedChili : If you would voice your opinion on something that is well-known about CX, that's one thing. Example: If you don't like the fact that Cathay has three
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