By Julie Johnsson
Tribune staff reporter
Published April 15, 2007
"US Airways is about to place one of the largest aircraft orders made by any U.S. carrier since the industry collapsed in 2001, a decision critically important to the future of Airbus SAS as it tries to catch up with Boeing Co.
The carrier's choice for its 60-airplane purchase will be closely watched by American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines and United Airlines, all of which are expected to buy planes over the next two years as their finances strengthen.
US Airways is the first major airline to pit the hot-selling 787 Dreamliner manufactured by Chicago-based Boeing against Airbus' new midsize jet, the A350 XWB."
"For Boeing, its biggest challenge is not becoming complacent after dominating this segment in recent years. With the 787 selling briskly, Boeing landed 73 percent of the $94 billion in orders placed in 2006 for twin-aisle planes."
"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man."
Walter747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1440 posts, RR: 6 Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 14265 times:
Like US said The Airbus A350 is not the same A350 they ordered years ago. So im guessing they are going to go with the 787. Better choice for them anyways since they will get them years before they would get the A350.
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4439 posts, RR: 34 Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 14226 times:
Quoting EI321 (Reply 1): It this order is to replace their 767-200 fleet, then the 788 is definitly a closer size than the A358.
60 aircraft order would not even come close to the small number of 767's in their fleet. I have a feeling they are looking for replacements of their 737-400 fleet or the 757 fleet. I think there was some chatter a few weeks ago about fleet replacements.
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 44 Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 14226 times:
This isn't an order for 60 widebodies, it is a mixed narrowbody and widebody order correct?
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
IC408 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 26 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 14165 times:
US need planes ASAP to maintain any competitive advantage for their Intl flying program. The 767-200 are OLD and even though fine mechanically and cosmetically the premium cabin doesnt match up with their competitors
They have a real shortage of aircraft as evidenced by a 757 being put on the PHL - LGW run this fall. So getting aircraft sooner definitely will play a role in the final decision.
Also, its important to remember that the Airbus proponents at US are no longer there. Wolf, Gangwal, et al are all long gone. So it should not be a foregone conclusion that US will go Airbus.
Expect Parker and Kirby to select the aircraft that best suits their needs without any obligation to past decisions by US management.
Opinions expressed within my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of United Airlines, Inc.
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4439 posts, RR: 34 Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 14113 times:
Quoting IC408 (Reply 6): Expect Parker and Kirby to select the aircraft that best suits their needs without any obligation to past decisions by US management.
Great point made. But, it seems as though HP was really racking in the Airbus product before the merger. I guess $$$$ and deals will be the determining factor in this. I would love to see US pick up some 787's, but would not mind seeing the new paint on an A380.
Basefly From Denmark, joined Apr 2007, 196 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 14092 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 4): 60 aircraft order would not even come close to the small number of 767's in their fleet. I have a feeling they are looking for replacements of their 737-400 fleet or the 757 fleet. I think there was some chatter a few weeks ago about fleet replacements.
This sound like an big mixed order, US could easily go A320 and 787 here.....
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 20630 posts, RR: 62 Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13971 times:
Quoting Basefly (Reply 8): This sound like an big mixed order, US could easily go A320 and 787 here.....
Would an A330 order be far fetched...?
They could order all types. A319, 739ER, A350-9, 788 and follow-on for A330s if they can get them soon.
Not sure why everyone thinks they are going with all one company.
Quoting EI321 (Reply 9): Anyway, looking at the 757 fleet, the obvious ones are the A321 & 737-900ER. How many seats on the 767s?
A321 and 739ER can replace a 767-200 seat wise (roughly) but obviously not in terms of routes and range.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4037 posts, RR: 28 Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13901 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10): Not sure why everyone thinks they are going with all one company.
Because it seems that I remember the conversations a few weeks back (great, now I need to go search for them ) were that an "insider" was calling it a done deal for 787/739ER's.
If I can find it before heading out to church, I'll post the link.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4037 posts, RR: 28 Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13876 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11): RE: US Airways To Decide On Order By End Of April. (by Dutchjet Mar 15 2007 in Civil Aviation)
RE: US Replacement Order For 737 (by N1120A Feb 8 2007 in Civil Aviation)
RE: US Airways To Order 733/734 Replacement (by BrianDromey Feb 6 2007 in Civil Aviation)
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4037 posts, RR: 28 Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13666 times:
Just back from Vancouver - will you take Canadian $? Otherwise I'll be in Anchorage in July so I can buy you a cold one at the Pioneer.
From looking at the most recent thread, it would appear less certain that the order is going all Boeing, though the skew was definitely towards the 787. DutchJet seemed to have a "feeling" that the order might be all-Boeing, and as I respect him a great deal, I think that is where I got my all-Boeing mindset from.
Ilikeflight From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 366 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13556 times:
I hope some of this order is to replace the 762 fleet those a/c and I do hope it is the 787 because I don't see the 350 doing that well
Kbdude From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 154 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13556 times:
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5): This isn't an order for 60 widebodies, it is a mixed narrowbody and widebody order correct?
Could this be the 30x787 UFO order that showed up last week on BOEING's order website? It's possible.
Strong rumour has it that Boeing will have a couple of surprise WB orders from some long-time Airbus WB customers.
Dank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 811 posts, RR: 18 Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13304 times:
This sound like an big mixed order, US could easily go A320 and 787 here.....
Would an A330 order be far fetched...?
They have 332s on order still. One would assume that these will replace the 767s and that the 787/350 decision is more long term. While the loan issue is moot since US has repaid that debt, Airbus has also been accomodating with deferrals, etc. with regard to 32x orders and the 330 orders, iirc. If they drop the 330s and the 350s, i'm sure airbus won't be quite as accomodating in the future (but business is business).
One would assume that a 60 frame order would include some narrowbodies (to replace 737s and 757s). I'm not sure that I see what benefit getting 737NGs really gives them. The 739ER isn't really going to give them much more than the 321 and there is no plane out there at all that can replace the 757 on the missions that the 739/321 can't handle.
NYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 4665 posts, RR: 51 Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 12680 times:
Quoting Dank (Reply 18): They have 332s on order still. One would assume that these will replace the 767s and that the 787/350 decision is more long term. While the loan issue is moot since US has repaid that debt, Airbus has also been accomodating with deferrals, etc. with regard to 32x orders and the 330 orders, iirc. If they drop the 330s and the 350s, i'm sure airbus won't be quite as accomodating in the future (but business is business).
Well that would be silly for Airbus to do seeing that US did order 400 + 400 A320s from them and haven't cancelled any of them (deferred maybe but that is far from a cancellation). Airbus will continue to accomodate US even if they order from Boeing this go around.
RoyalAtlantis From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 102 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 12229 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 15): Just back from Vancouver - will you take Canadian $? Otherwise I'll be in Anchorage in July so I can buy you a cold one at the Pioneer.
I would bet on it. The 788 is what they need sooner than they can get a hold of the larger A350XWB. Also, as they serve 2nd tier U.S. cities, the 788 is more the size they need i would bet.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 20630 posts, RR: 62 Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11305 times:
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 19): Well that would be silly for Airbus to do seeing that US did order 400 + 400 A320s from them and haven't cancelled any of them (deferred maybe but that is far from a cancellation). Airbus will continue to accomodate US even if they order from Boeing this go around.
yes, but "US" doesn't exist anymore. They first went into BK, where things like outstanding orders and options get renegotiated, and then they were bought out by another airline, HP. So if US had that order, who really knows what they have now.
And it wasn't 400+400, but 120+280, and whatever that meant at the time may mean something entirely different now. Deposit money could have been used to pay for A330s and A320 deliveries, for example...
Now, if it was HP who had the 400 order/options, that's different. But HP had their own outstanding Airbus contract, and one can assume that one will be filled...
But according to the unreliable wiki page, the total US backorder for Airbus is only 37 A320 series, 10 A332, and 20 A350 (original design), with that last order being completely paper and meaningless, other than preferred pricing on the A350XWB.
They can replace all their 733s and some 734s with A319/A320s, and the rest of their 734s and 757s with 739ER if they choose (+growth), and they still have a very sensible fleet of 100 737NG and 225 A320 series, enough for commonality/economies of scale in both fleets without being bound to one manufacturer.
The A332s replace the 762s one for one, and then all that's left is the future A333 replacement (since they are too limited for them) + growth, and does that come as the A350 or 787.
That would make a 40+20 739ER + 20+10 789 order look quite reasonable...
[Edited 2007-04-15 22:18:32]
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23613 posts, RR: 79 Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11202 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21): Whatever 400+400 meant at the time may mean something entirely different now.
Well that "exclusive" contract would have been invalidated the same time Boeing was forced to invalidate their own subsequent "exclusive" deals. However, just as AA and company continued to buy 737NGs exclusively, so did US and the A320 family so I imagine US, even though now merged with HP, will continue to add A320 family members until the 737RS and A320RS families are available for sale.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 20630 posts, RR: 62 Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11062 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 22): so I imagine US, even though now merged with HP
but that US doesn't even exist.
I imagine them adding to the A320 fleet AND adding 739ER...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Slovacek747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10899 times:
I don't see them adding both 320s and 739s from here on out. If they take more 320s then I feel the 739 doesn't stand a chnace. I'm really hoping for them to go Boeing all the way since I'm not a fan of Airbus. Plus, I belive Boeing will benefit them better economically.
Slovacek747
25 Rhysobeseo: Wasnt there 20 million dollars from airbus involved in the deal??? How could this affect the outcome???
26 Walter747: I really do hope US goes with Boeing.
27 Vega: Unless US got a huge, unlikely concession from Boeing, 787s ordered today would not be delivered until 2013 - 1 year earlier than the advertised firs
28 Stitch: but that US doesn't even exist. Well if they are smart (and I am sure they are), they will just tell Airbus "we want the same deal you used to give U
29 Vega: The 350 order was committed on the basis of GRANTING the load, not paying it off - even though that has been accomplished. The reason US feels they h
30 ERJ170: Remember.. US already have early delivery slots on hold with Boeing... I can't remember how early, but I think it is a lot earlier than the 350 will
31 Wjweeks: As the wise minds have noted, US needs INTERNATIONAL SEATS in the new competive arena.......in reality they need to move to a domestic program with a
32 Stitch: Folks do need to remember that this is based on current build rates. However, while Boeing and their suppliers have agreed to follow the initial two
33 Byrdluvs747: Well, the HP mgmt has been going the airbus direction long before the merger. Why do people insist on bringing up that dammed loan. It's gone!
34 PlanesNTrains: We loved it. Skytrain was great. City was great. But what is up with everyone wearing black and listening to 80's/90's music? Do you know when their
35 PlanesNTrains: So were AC and NW. And at one time, UA was a great Boeing/MD buyer. US had many dozens of 737's. In the end, price and product overcame those allegia
36 Keesje: For wide body maybe a 788 /359 mix to replace the 767 / a330 mix? Those aircraft will be available early on and could become the combi of choice just
37 MrComet: I think the 30 plane UFO order is going to US. They'll probably go an A320 narrowbody to keep commonality and since its not a large purchase (30 piece
38 2wingtips: The word is Airbus has won the entire order, as they had to do for the 350XWB to get a North American customer.
39 MCOflyer: It does and I think Boeing will win this order. Boeing has been trying to get US back and this could be the chance to win them back. MCOflyer
40 Dank: I'm still not sure that I buy the 739 order unless it is part of the deal for 787s. The 739ER would give them almost nothing over the 321. And while
41 NDSchu777: My guess would be they'll go for the 787 for widebody and a mix of A320/A321's for narrowbody. In the widebody market they are starting from scratch.
42 RoyalAtlantis: PHL/PHX/LAS/CLT - yes, i think they are 2nd tier and don't draw as many passengers as the majors for international travel such ATL/NYC/ORD/LAX/MIA -
43 MEACEDAR: I could see the 60 planes as the following: 10-787s 20-737s 20-A330s 15-A319/320/321 series
44 Stitch: It wouldn't surprise me, especially with the A345 entering the fleet and the additional A332s coming should hold them over and allow them on working
45 WN230: I'd be happy to see another order for the 787 although i have nothing against airbus products. If US is the 787 ufo customer, will those be a mix of
46 MCOflyer: Congrats. Well, I think we all hope US gets the 788. The 739ER is a possibility, but as Dank said its too much complications. Stranger things have ha
47 Dank: US doesn't fly the 767 on domestic runs. More importantly, the 332s should replace the 767s. Why should we all "hope" that US gets the 788? I mean, I
49 HPRamper: US is going all-CFM from now on. ATL and MIA benefit from large hubs for very large airlines. A lot of the traffic there is connecting. Nobody is goi
50 Behramjee: What Boeing needs to seriously consider is open a 2nd production line for the B 787 series so that it can secure the mega orders from the U.S. carrier
51 PlanesNTrains: It might not be. I was more contrasting the opinions of Vega in US not needing the range of the 787, but then referencing the use of A330's until the
52 Kaitak744: Time is NOT a factor for any airline ordering the 787 now. A350 or 787, they will receive them at roughly the same time, given that the 787 is sold o
53 WorldTraveler: and you won't see it because AA, UA, or DL aren't going to order an entire replacement fleet at one time. They don't need to because there are such t
54 777ER: There was a thread a while back that US has issued RFPs for the B739ER also for the B757 replacement. This is certainly getting interesting
55 Dank: on both of those. $$$ matter and you never know how the manufacturers are willing to deal to get certain customers into the fold. I'm not sure that I
56 JAAlbert: So who's your source!? Come on, don't keep secrets!
57 Mah584jr: I could see US getting short term aircraft such as the A330 until the A350 arrives. This is one way to keep a company growing while waiting for the A
58 Stitch: If the suppliers can feed it, Boeing should be able to push 20 787s a month out of one line, which is 240 a year and should be more then plenty to me
59 Flighty: I agree with you. US has been loath to replace the 767 will the A332. That should tell you something.
60 Dank: Bankruptcy might have something to do with that. They have 332s on order. They deferred them since they couldn't afford them. cheers.
61 WN230: What I meant was if US got the 783 and 788 was that the 783 should replace the 767 on routes like PHL-FRA. Then the 788 could do the china route if U
62 Dank: The 783 can't do PHL-FRA. The range of the 783 is 2,500 to 3,050 nm and PHL-FRA is ~4,000 miles, iirc. The 788 would be a better selection. The 783 i
63 WN230: I dont know why I thought the 783 could do PHL-FRA. But wouldn't using the 788 on a route like that be overkill when its range could be used for long
64 MCOflyer: It wouldn't if you fill the a/c up. Also take in how much cargo you see going between the two cities and you have profit right there. MCOflyer
65 Rpaillard: Hi, According to ATW, Airbus have the edge : "Separately ATWOnline understands that US Airways has opted to stay with the A350 rather than swapping to
66 DAYflyer: While this may be true to some degree, I wouldn't say Doug Parker and the rest of the America West team are exactly "Anti-Airbus". They have their ow
67 SkyyMaster: Well I knew someone would beat me to this post! I don't think it should come as any surprise that US is going Airbus, most likely for narrow body a/c
68 EI321: What is that, 20 A350-800? If true, then thats at least another 122 orders for the A350 that will likely be signed this year.
69 Scouseflyer: Cept if it's 'only' 20 A350s then it's just a reconfirmation of the XNB orders to the XWB - I reckon if they do go with the XWB they might top it up
71 UALMMFlyer: IMHO, US will stay with Airbus for the entire order. It makes a lot of sense that A330 can be ordered with a shorter delivery date to meeting the dema
72 AirFrnt: IMHO, there is absolutly no chance that US will go Airbus unless they are not competitive at all on price. The Airline industry's least common denomi
73 Dank: The 772ER has very similar range to the 788 and is also used on east coast-western Europe runs. So long as the performance curve isn't too bad, you d
74 Dank: It really is hard to see how they would go Boeing other than Airbus giving them a poor price (it would be akin to someone like CO not going with Boei
75 BigJKU: It will be hard for them to do so I would think. After the A350 it will be time for the 320 replacement. There is little way you could make that larg
76 Dank: Actually, I think that Airbus is in a better position than Boeing in this case as it turns out. Boeing actually put themselves in a bit of an awkward
77 Rpaillard: So you think that US will go for Airbus, right? (must be a typo) I tend to agree... but, on the other hand, for some people, business is business and
78 BigJKU: Competing in the 100 seat market really necessitates a different airplane anyway than the one that plays in the 120-200 seat market. This can be seen
79 Dank: The problem with this, in Airbus' view is that they looked for where they would be weakest and Boeing would be weakest. Already a good portion of the
80 Vega: ATW thinks US chose the A350XWB: http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8595 See the last paragraph
81 Tugger: Damn! Just spotted that when I checked that article link from another thread (RUMOR: AA To Sell 90 757s To Fedex). Ah well. So just how reliable is A
82 Vega: Well they're just as reliable as any other news service who publishes Rumors. In this case, I'd project the Rumor is true however and as expected. Th
83 Atmx2000: They actually start the 787 between the 763 and 764 in size. Boeing has plenty of room to operate. It should be noted that they can always choose to
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