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Why Is Boeing Never Flying On Airshows?  
User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 460 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10740 times:

Hi Everybody!

Why do Boeing airplanes in contrast to the Airbus ones never take part at flight demonstrations during airshows like Paris or Farnborough?

Is there a special reason behind it?

Thank you for any answers.

Tom


Tom from Cologne
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3313 posts, RR: 40
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10718 times:

Boeing doesn't really have any aircraft themselves to fly at airshows. Where as Airbus has several prototypes such as the A343, A346 and an A320 which are used at airshows.

However some airlines will fly their boeing aircraft at airshows. Examples include South African Airways 747 (At Duxford?) and DHL 757 at the Royal International Air Tattoo in 2005.

Also EVA did send a new 777-300ER to farnborough although it was not flying.

Can we expect to see the 787 and 747-8I flying at an airshow such as Paris or Farnborough... I hope so  Smile



Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
User currently offlineShamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10684 times:

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 1):
Examples include South African Airways 747 (At Duxford?)

Not sure about Duxford but it was ta the 2004 Farnborough airshow however I didn't see it at the 2006 show.


User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3313 posts, RR: 40
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10628 times:

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 2):
Not sure about Duxford but it was ta the 2004 Farnborough airshow however I didn't see it at the 2006 show.

I just looked it up, It was at Duxford 2003.

Heres the video of it...



and of the DHL 757 at RIAT 2005



Also, the year I was there, BA chartered a flight into Fairford which was great to see a 747 landing up close!



Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10615 times:

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 2):
Quoting Legoguy (Reply 1):
Examples include South African Airways 747 (At Duxford?)

Not sure about Duxford but it was ta the 2004 Farnborough airshow however I didn't see it at the 2006 show.

The SA 744 flew in from LHR and then back. It did not land IIRC.


User currently offlineShamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10561 times:

It does that great spiral climb at shows. I remember watching it head back to LHR and about half an hour later we drove past LHR and it was sitting at it's usual stand like it had been there all day!
I would have loved to see the EVA 777 do it but it made a high speed taxi and that was it when I was at FAB last year.


User currently offlinePhilb From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10394 times:

Boeing has demonstrated many airliners and military aircraft in the flying displays at both Farnborough and Paris over the years. For some reason it has focused more on static displays of airliners recently but there doesn't seem to be a particular reason.

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6411 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10188 times:

I remember watching a NZ 747-400 do a low level flyby at OSH in 1998 before landing at the airshow...followed shortly by the Concorde  Smile


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2731 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10143 times:

I have a great idea. If anyone works at Boeing, please forward this to the appropriate parties.

Since Boeing is located in downtown Chicago and the Chicago Air & Water Show will happen around the time that the 787 will be taking its first flight(Aug 18-19), they should do a fly-by!

AND... if United orders the 787, to celebrate the order and United's move to downtown Chicago, they could do it in United's colors! Big grin  bouncy 


User currently offlineLVHGEL From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2007, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9981 times:

Because since the test pilot of the B720 prototype "who was selling planes" did a barrel roll without any heads up to the company execs., they decided to avoid such a maneuver in an air show by not flying demo planes in them...  spin 

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9949 times:

Quoting LVHGEL (Reply 9):
Because since the test pilot of the B720 prototype "who was selling planes" did a barrel roll without any heads up to the company execs., they decided to avoid such a maneuver in an air show by not flying demo planes in them...

You may be thinking of Alvin Johnston, chief test pilot on the 367-80, which directly became the C-135 and indirectly became the 707/720.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9922 times:

I had heard the reason was that the flight protection envelope on the Airbus is better than the one Boeing has so the Airbus is able to put in a better display than what a Boeing could, therefore Boeing will not display against Airbus as it could lead to the public thinking the Boeing was inferior in some way.

From what I understand the Airbus FBW will not let the pilot take the a/c outside the safe operating range, whereas the Boeing version will sound a warning but the pilot is able to override it and potentially take the a/c outside the envelope and if that happened at an airshow and a Boeing a/c crashed, the consequences could be devastating for them.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineLVHGEL From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2007, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9894 times:

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 11):
You may be thinking of Alvin Johnston, chief test pilot on the 367-80, which directly became the C-135 and indirectly became the 707/720.

yup, thanks...

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 11):
From what I understand the Airbus FBW will not let the pilot take the a/c outside the safe operating range, whereas the Boeing version will sound a warning but the pilot is able to override it and potentially take the a/c outside the envelope and if that happened at an airshow and a Boeing a/c crashed, the consequences could be devastating for them.

more or less my thougth tong in cheek..


User currently offlineMrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9861 times:

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 11):
From what I understand the Airbus FBW will not let the pilot take the a/c outside the safe operating range, whereas the Boeing version will sound a warning but the pilot is able to override it and potentially take the a/c outside the envelope and if that happened at an airshow and a Boeing a/c crashed, the consequences could be devastating for them.

Airbus' FBW system isn't some magical device that allows a pilot to throw an airplane around yet will prevent a crash so we can all live happily ever after. The thing is, airshow flying entails a substantially increased risk of an accident no matter what type of aircraft you fly. I would hazard a guess that Boeing feels the gains made by a flying display are far outweighed by the risks involved.



Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 883 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9853 times:

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 11):
From what I understand the Airbus FBW will not let the pilot take the a/c outside the safe operating range, whereas the Boeing version will sound a warning but the pilot is able to override it and potentially take the a/c outside the envelope and if that happened at an airshow and a Boeing a/c crashed, the consequences could be devastating for them.

Didn't an Airbus guy crash a 330 at an airshow? I call BS on this reasoning.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9838 times:

Oh I am sure in the near future this will change. There could be a million reasons that Boeing isn't currently appearing on airshows like Airbus does, but it's probably some very simple main reason. I'm not going to hazard a guess. The reason doesn't really matter.

I'm sure that with the arrival of the B787 this will change. They will show that plane on every airshow they can and in its wake, perhaps even the other models as well.

Technical creativity, listening to the customer needs and marketing catapulted Airbus from being a company with 0% marketshare to a company with 50+% marketshare.

saludos

Asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9832 times:

It was actually an A320 in the very early days back in the 80's, and it wasn't a problem with the FBW, it was human error by the pilot.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 883 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9832 times:

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 16):
It was actually an A320 in the very early days back in the 80's, and it wasn't a problem with the FBW, it was human error by the pilot.

So a pilot can make an error and crash an Airbus and a pilot can make an error and crash a Boeing, so what would this have to do with keeping Boeings further away from airshows?


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9783 times:

Why would a flying demonstration at an airshow effluence an operators decision on buying an airliner? So what of an airliner can do high banked turns and rapid climbs. These are not realistic how the aircraft will be used in service.

User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4113 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9783 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 17):
So a pilot can make an error and crash an Airbus and a pilot can make an error and crash a Boeing, so what would this have to do with keeping Boeings further away from airshows?

I think the argument was that Boeing doesn't think it's worth the risk, putting the airplane through multiple stresses just to woo a crowd. They're more interested in selling airplanes.


User currently offlineLVHGEL From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2007, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9755 times:

May be.. caution?

Now seriously and thinking as the business owner that I am, it bore down to numbers, how much does it cost to perform at an air show, against the potential customer exposure the show can deliver. Now with the 787 like it has been said before things might change, remember it's a totally new technology for an airliner. I do not know what will happen (maybe...) when the media began talking (probably without any insight) about the "plastic plane", in this case Boeing will need to make some PR showing the machine in all it's splendor at every available venue.


User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3313 posts, RR: 40
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9750 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 14):
Didn't an Airbus guy crash a 330 at an airshow? I call BS on this reasoning.

As Leezyjet says, it was an A320.

I still believe it's because Boeing doesn't have any prototype aircraft within their pocession. The 757 and 767 were used for testing the F22 and the first production 777 is flying with some airline somewhere. The only aircraft Airbus flies at airshows are the A320, A340-600 and the A380... all aircraft are first production aircraft.

Therefore I believe if Boeing had retained first production aircraft, they too would be flying them at airshows.



Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3548 posts, RR: 67
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9643 times:

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 11):
From what I understand the Airbus FBW will not let the pilot take the a/c outside the safe operating range, whereas the Boeing version will sound a warning but the pilot is able to override it and potentially take the a/c outside the envelope

On Boeing FBW airplanes, the main pilot cue that the airplane has reached the edges of the flight protection envelope is a significant increase in control force. The pilot can over ride these higher force levels, but if the levels are respected, the Boeing system provides the same level of protection as the Airbus system.

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 11):
I had heard the reason was that the flight protection envelope on the Airbus is better than the one Boeing has so the Airbus is able to put in a better display than what a Boeing could


Neither the Airbus system or the Boeing system are magic. Both will allow the pilot to crash the airplane if good airmanship is not practiced as per your quote below.

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 16):
It was actually an A320 in the very early days back in the 80's, and it wasn't a problem with the FBW, it was human error by the pilot.

The A330 crash also mentioned was not at an airshow, but it was during a customer demonstration flight. The pilot was Nick Warner, the Airbus Chief Pilot at the time. He was a personal friend. By the way, from the 707 through the 777, Boeing has never lost an airplane during flight testing (knock on wood).

I think the reason Boeing doesn't fly at air shows is because the air show maneuvers have little to do with the way the airplane is operated in service and they do add an additional element of risk, however slight.

[Edited 2007-04-16 23:48:17]


Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineBreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9600 times:

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 21):
Quoting BigJKU (Reply 14):
Didn't an Airbus guy crash a 330 at an airshow? I call BS on this reasoning.

As Leezyjet says, it was an A320.

Looks to be a mix of info here.
An A330 operated by Airbus did crashed, but it was during a test flight at Toulouse. Pilot error (MSN 042 F-WWKH Toulouse 30 Jun 94). A memory monument is erected on the side of the runway.
And an A320 crashed at a local airshow, but it was an Air France plane. Pilot error again (MSN 009 F-GFKC at Mulhouse/Habsheim on 26 Mar 88)

Note: here is a link to the memorial at Toulouse:
http://www.pixaviation.info/cpg/displayimage.php?album=41&pos=6

[Edited 2007-04-17 00:06:22]

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25653 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8717 times:

Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
For some reason it has focused more on static displays of airliners recently but there doesn't seem to be a particular reason.

I've seen several articles on this subject, and the main reason given for Boeing's cutback in flying displays at airshows such as Farnborough and Paris was to reduce costs. Participating in these shows is very expensive even without the flying displays and I believe they determined that flying the aircraft had no impact on sales.


25 Kaitak744 : What on earth is that supposed to mean? The A380 at one air-show (I think at Dubai) did a fly by at absolute minimum speed, with flaps at full, and t
26 Viscount724 : It was June 30, 1994, and the 7 crew killed in that crash are the only A330/340 fatalities to date.
27 ONTFlyer : Wasn't there a NZ Air Force 757 that performed an awesome display a little while back? I remember watching that video in amazement. Also, as someone s
28 Post contains links United787 : I think this is the 757 rocket video you are referring to although I found several other Air New Zealand Air Force 757 Rocket displays. http://www.yo
29 LASOctoberB6 : does Boeing or Airbus ever send their planes to the airshow at LSV? i didnt make it to see last year....whatever happenend to Boeing's prototypes?
30 Jasond : QF did display a 7378 at the Pearce Show in November 2005 which wasn't too exciting with just a couple of simple flybys. Saying that Cathay also displ
31 Lufthansa : While Air NZ might be bigger then the NZ air force which the lezzo who runs that country basically reduced to nothing, the Royal New Zealand Air Forc
32 B757fan : It's quite simple. They feel they have a product they can sell without the need of building extra aircraft strictly for use in air show demonstrations
33 ONTFlyer : That's the one, thank you for finding the vid. ONT
34 CaptainTim : do you think there is a chance that the Boeing 787 or Boeing will bring a demo aircraft to Asian Aerospace 2007 in September? Airbus brought the A380
35 NWA742 : A United 787 - now that would be a beautiful aircraft. I hope UA orders them - I bet they will eventually. -NWA742
36 Philb : No-one builds extra aircraft strictly for airshow demonstration. Boeing have regularly flown prototype and early production examples of various types
37 Post contains images Max777geek : Because they don't need to show they are better
38 Zeke : It was not a demo flight, it was a certification flight for the PW4164. It was not an airshow. CX has a lot of ex red arrow, bluebird, roulettes and
39 Kappel : Actually, the last couple of shows Airbus has flown the a318. They show the smallest, largest and longest aircraft they have. (a318, a346 and a380).
40 StarGoldLHR : I think it's the same reason all companies in the US stop doing any show of any kind that might be considered different... They dont want to do someth
41 Starlionblue : And it wasn't (quite) a 707. It was the 367-80 prototype, from which stemmed the 707 and the 717.
42 Post contains images Bohica : Why waste the fuel? No airline is going to base their buying decision on a fly-by. (The 367-80 might have been an exception)
43 ThePRGuy : I think Boeing are just tight. Airbus are in the middle of a financial crisis - they need all the PR they can get. Boeing is cruising along quite comf
44 DAYflyer : A good policy in my opinion.
45 Post contains links OldAeroGuy : While the PW 4164 A330 was undergoing flight testing at the time, there were two Alitalia captains on the airplane at the time to observe the airplan
46 Post contains links Zeke : It was a pure certification flight, it airframe/engine combination was not certified, the pilots you mentioned were onboard, so were other Airbus obs
47 OldAeroGuy : Are you saying an airplane needs to be certified to give a demonstration flight? I can assure you, lot of demonstration flying occurs prior to certif
48 Zeke : Nope, the 330 was certified at the time, just not that engine/airframe combination. The Alitalia pilots role were as observers as per the report abov
49 Chuchoteur : More importantly, the test flight was classified as a 3, ie low risk, authorising observers on board. The interim report correctly said that the fligh
50 OldAeroGuy : Frankly, this statement is a cop-out. If the airframe/engine combination is not certified, there is no TC. The airframe/engine combination is not on
51 Vorticity : Boeing simply does not have any airplanes to fly for an airshow unless they work out something with one of their customers. Boeing had to get a 777 fr
52 FlyDreamliner : Boeing prefers their 'stunt' press flights. Like when they took the 777-200LR from Hong Kong to London flying eastbound. Maybe they'll have to do a ba
53 Starlionblue : Plenty of rolls have been perfomed away from the cameras. But after enough planes dropped out of the skies on training flights the "practice" was qui
54 Starlionblue : Plenty of rolls have been perfomed away from the cameras. But after enough planes dropped out of the skies on training flights the "practice" was qui
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