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Was The 747 Design To Replace The 707?  
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3301 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3412 times:

I do not remember if I post this before, but was thinking about this. Was the 747 design to replace the 707, or was it a big sister to the 707? I thought that 747 was a 707 replacement for a long time, until I saw alot of post saying the 767 was a 707 replacement.

10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3400 times:

Commercial production of the 707 ended in 1978. The 747 rolled out in 1969 and first flew commercially in 1970. The capacity of the 707 ranged from 110-189 pax in two-class configuration to a max of 179-219 pax (one class), depending on variant.

So the simple answer is no. The 767 is more of a replacement than was the 747, but still has larger capacity.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

For most carriers the 747 was too big to be a direct 707 replacement. Boeing took 183 more 707 orders after the 747 made its first flight in February 1969. Most of those orders were for military versions of the 707 but they still sold another 59 commercial 707s after the 747 first flew (quick count per Boeing orders/deliveries website).

Several early 747-100 customers that did try to replace 707s (and DC-8s) with 747s, mainly on US domestic routes, soon found them to be much too big to operate profitably and sold them after a few years. US domestic operators like AA, DL and CO that then lacked any longhaul international routes probably would have been smarter not to have not bought their original 747s and waited until they had routes more appropriate for them. But at the time it seemed like everyone had to have at least a couple of 747s whether they made sense for their route network or not.


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3339 times:

In the early 1960's, it was believed that there were be a HUGE explosion in air travel, and rather than focus on frequency (as is the custom now), capacity was heralded - "now everyone can fly" was really the theme.

Juan Trippe of Pan Am went to Boeing with a proposal - "if you will build us a high capacity airliner (using technology developed from Boeing Ultra-large transport proposal made to the U.S. armed forces), we will buy a large number". On April 13, 1966, Boeing and Pan Am announced the order for 25 747's.

In the late 1960's, the belief was that SST travel would take over, and the slow and lumbering subsonic jets would be relegated to cargo routes, hence the reason the 747 has an upper deck:


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To facilite cargo loading through the very front.

In the 1970's, not only did the idea of mass SST travel die, but the energy crisis and the economic slump made Boeing concentrate on more efficient designs. The first "petite" wide-body, the A300, came out at this time from Airbus. Boeing planned a pair of similar designs, the 757 and 767, one wide-body, the other narrow body, but both with a common cockpit (also a fairly new concept).

Boeing marketed the 757 as a 727 replacement; but ironically enough with this topic, the 757 has become the replacement for the 707 - both are roughly the same in capacity, and both now operate trans-Atlantic routes quite nicely and profitably.

The 747 has found itself most useful on Asian routes where even with increased frequency there is still a very high demand for large capacity planes.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3339 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 1):
The 767 is more of a replacement than was the 747

No the 767 was replacement for the 707/DC8
757 was to replace the 727-200 (didnt turn out that way)
747/DC-10/L10 were all new aircraft types based on the traffic growth of the 1950-1969 period continuing indefinitely


User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3322 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 4):
No the 767 was replacement for the 707/DC8

That's what I was saying. The 767 is more of a replacement (for the 707) than was the 747 (a replacement for the 707).


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3294 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 4):
747/DC-10/L1011 were all new aircraft types based on the traffic growth of the 1950-1969 period continuing indefinitely

In hindsight, it probably would have been better for both the airlines and aircraft manufacturers if the DC-10 and L1011 had been designed and built first, followed by the 747 a few years later. It would have been a better match of capacity with demand and probably would have avoided some of the serious financial problems that both the airlines and manufacturers faced in the 1970s. It may also have meant that either McDonnell-Douglas or Lockheed, or possibly both, would still be building commercial aircraft today.


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4264 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3255 times:

In the 1970s the 747 replaced the 707 and DC-8 on the flagship routes of almost airlines which bought them; Pan Am, JAL, BA, KLM, LH, TWA etc. But because it was so big, often 3 flights with 707s were replaced with 1 or 2 flights with a 747. Pan Am and TWA each had more then 100 707s around 1970 but never more then 40 747s. The 707s were then internally tranferred to 2nd tier longer and medium haul routes until replaced by 757s, A-310s and 767s in the 1980s. So yes it was a replacement of the 707 and yes the 757 and 767 replaced it as well.


nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6385 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

I would say that the 767 was more of a 707 replacement than the 747. However, for many US airlines, the 707 and DC-8 were replaced by the 757 on domestic routes, while widebodies dominated the international routes.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 3993 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

In reality, the 757 proved to be the 707 replacement, and the 737-800 has for the most part taken the place of most 727 fleets in major U.S.A. legacy carriers. Delta for example started replacing their fleet of DC-8s with 757s back in 1984, and have since acquired a large fleet of 738s to replace what was once a large fleet of 727s.
For the typical scope and mission of the 707, the 767 has proved to be a valued successor, with not just a greater passenger volume, but also cargo options and range flown with all variants that have evolved over the 25 years since it first rolled out onto PAE. The 767 revolutionized the long haul point to point between hubs and overseas spokes.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 42
Reply 10, posted (6 years 12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3147 times:

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I do not remember if I post this before, but was thinking about this. Was the 747 design to replace the 707, or was it a big sister to the 707? I thought that 747 was a 707 replacement for a long time, until I saw alot of post saying the 767 was a 707 replacement.

My understanding is that Pan Am's original intention was to most 707's with 747's. For a variety of reasons that didn't work. The primary reason even under regulation Pan Am could not fill up a 747 on anything but the highest capacity routes. Even those routes couldn't be filled until TWA and Pan Am did a European route swap to eliminate overlap on certain routes (which was legal then because of the CAB - It would be plain illegal today). The 747's capacity started the entire Pan Am slide, which was also not helped by factors like Trippe leaving, increased competition across the pacific from United and Northwest and a Democratic party that was extremely hostile to America's chosen instrument.

At the end of the day, the huge demand for capacity that Juan Trippe had projected to justify the 747 occured. It just remained being serviced by many vendors with 707, DC-10, and L-1011 sized aircraft. The 747 was never able to replace the 707 and it was one of the factors that ended up dooming Pan Am.


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