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Pilots Working In Bad Situations  
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1984 posts, RR: 6
Posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

Hello everyone, as someone who recently finished his commercial license I have a few questions. While I know the answers to most of my questions I will still be putting them out for debate. Anyhow lets begin. Why do alot of pilots "whore" themselves out to companies that do not pay, or pay next to nothing, work them long hours, do not respect them, make them pay training bonds etc etc etc...

Now I do know that the pilots themselves (some not all) have screwed it over for the other group of pilots. Up in Canada we are different from the states, where up here we have some companies that do pay decently (25-30Gs a year starting F/O) do keep their a/c in good working order, treat their crew really well, but we also have companies that believe in profit before maintenance paying 18Gs a giving you a 14 hour day min rest period and then another 14 hour day right the next day etc.

The issue coming up in the next little while is where I believe pilots can now start demanding more respect from companies. We have a major shortage of pilots coming as airlines are expanding (AC and WS in Canada) and then that gives Commuter and Air Taxi organizations a very high turnover rate. This will mean if and ONLY if ALL pilots start demanding the respect they DESERVE will we get anywhere. Companies such as Kenn Borek Air or Pacific Coastal(two example) are good company from what I here, pay could be improved but the overall workplace is excellent with good training and they treat their employees well. Then there are other examples out there (I will not name some) which are the exact opposite but pilots still line up at the door with a resume in hand looking for that job. Most of my friends in aviation are basically where I sit, and I know many who have walked away from jobs, gotten a job heard about how they run things and jump ship but I also know some who have made some mistakes (training bonds being numero uno).

Anyways I know this is long and may sound more like a ranting session then a question session but if could anyone answer why people are still whoring them selves out. We need to get more respect.

Who knows another job where you spend at least 50,000 big ones one school to go out and look for a job, when you find on you will be earning below the poverty level in Canada. I can not think of any other job like it.By NO means am I saying that we should get paid 6 figures right off the start, that is impractical, but to start off some where in the range of at least 30-35 Thousand where people could live a very basic but decent life. Some of the commuters (Borek) are paying well over this for captains (I have seen 75,000) and still a decent about for FOs for a little DHC-6, to me, this is a company to work for.

Anyone have any thoughts?

PS I know companies try and make money, but in any other industry the company charges it's customers enough so they can pay staff half decently as well as make a profit pay for expenses etc. It may be about time to start charging the end user more, but some companies will still pay nothing and charge less and get the customers, sad life.
One more thing, before anyone flames me, I KNEW this when I came into it, it will not stop me, and I would rather fly and have to pay rent for life etc, then work and office job. But it is about time pilots get the respect they deserve.


Keep the shinny side up!
9 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2904 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2169 times:

Quoting ZBBYLW (Thread starter):
This will mean if and ONLY if ALL pilots start demanding the respect they DESERVE will we get anywhere.

Whoaaaahhhhhhh there, big shot. You just got your Commercial, and you're already demanding RESPECT ???

Quoting ZBBYLW (Thread starter):
But it is about time pilots get the respect they deserve.

Respect is EARNED, it don't come on the Commercial licence tin.

Shamu



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1984 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 1):
Whoaaaahhhhhhh there, big shot. You just got your Commercial, and you're already demanding RESPECT ???

This is not only coming from me, I know working as a flight instructor wont get me much respect. These thoughts have been hammered into my mind by not only my own judgment of the situation but coming from guys who have been in the industry for MANY years. One has been in the industry for over 10 years is an FO with Kelowna Flight Craft on the 727, and still gets treated like crap. It is for the whole industry not only me. I have had these thoughts since I was younger as well.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 1):
Respect is EARNED, it don't come on the Commercial licence tin.

OK I am not asking respect for me right now, but how about for all those commuter pilots that work their ass all day to make nothing at the end of the day. I know one guy who used to fly a DC-6 up north, he had to load and unload at some of the spots, he only got payed Hobbs time (common) anyways routinely he would have a 2 hour load 1 hour flight 2 hours unload and fly back make 30 dollars for his effort that day and that be that. Would you call this a fair practice?



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2122 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 1):
Whoaaaahhhhhhh there, big shot. You just got your Commercial, and you're already demanding RESPECT ???

Why shouldn't he? An employer should treat his or her employees with respect and dignity regardless of their level of experience.


2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2904 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 2):
One has been in the industry for over 10 years is an FO with Kelowna Flight Craft on the 727, and still gets treated like crap.

If he's intelligent enough to go commercial, he should be intelligent enough to know when the time is right to jump ship for greener pastures. Just sitting in a shitty position and moaning or demanding 'respect' will get him nowhere.

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 2):
OK I am not asking respect for me right now, but how about for all those commuter pilots that work their ass all day to make nothing at the end of the day. I know one guy who used to fly a DC-6 up north, he had to load and unload at some of the spots, he only got payed Hobbs time (common) anyways routinely he would have a 2 hour load 1 hour flight 2 hours unload and fly back make 30 dollars for his effort that day and that be that. Would you call this a fair practice?

Would you call him mad?? I would, but hey, some guys would dream of that kind of job.

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 2):
It is for the whole industry not only me.

No it's not. You make your bed where you want to lie. I have moved from one company to another in the pursuit of what I consider 'good' working conditions. BUT, every time I have moved, I have tried to further my career or my experience. MY c.v., if it could be plotted graphically, shows that with every move I have moved upwards onto bigger or more modern airframes, into companies with a higher regard, or on to better remuneration.

Your self-development does not, I stress does NOT end with you receiving your CPL/ATPL or anything on the way. This career is a self-development programme from beginning to retirement.

You have the skills, now go out there and find someone who rewards you in the way you think fits.

Shamu



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2904 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 3):
Why shouldn't he? An employer should treat his or her employees with respect and dignity regardless of their level of experience.

Absolutely, but since when was respect and dignity gauged in $$$, which is the O/P's main gripe ?

$$$ comes with time, experience and cumulative respect

Shamu

[Edited 2007-04-21 01:49:17]


So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineScrubbsYWG From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 1495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2078 times:

i would think that these pilots in 'crappy' jobs are there because they need the hours. Its the kind of career that requires devlopment. Just having a license does not mean you are qualified to have any job. Some people may not interview well enough, have enough hours, whatever. The pay is not that great but they NEED the hours and have to sacrifice themselves. Regardless of if they are making money, they are at least getting hours.

I graduated university in the last couple years, and i have many friends who have. I have many friends that are working 60+ work weeks because they have to to get respect and experience they need to be the accountants, engineers, etc. I think a CPL is along the same lines. When you get your first job, its a win win for everyone. The airlines get a FO, and the pilot gets paid AND gets experience. the ladder almost outweighing the former.


User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1984 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2070 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 4):
f he's intelligent enough to go commercial, he should be intelligent enough to know when the time is right to jump ship for greener pastures. Just sitting in a shitty position and moaning or demanding 'respect' will get him nowhere.

I should have told you a bit more, but he has not worked 10 years with KFC, but is new to the company, he is in a 6 month contract and will leave when his time comes.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 4):
No it's not. You make your bed where you want to lie. I have moved from one company to another in the pursuit of what I consider 'good' working conditions. BUT, every time I have moved, I have tried to further my career or my experience. MY c.v., if it could be plotted graphically, shows that with every move I have moved upwards onto bigger or more modern airframes, into companies with a higher regard, or on to better remuneration.

BlueShamu330s, I can understand where you are coming from HOWEVER I believe that the industry over here is different from the UK. Over here there are companies that maintain poor maintenance, work you like a dog etc.. While this problem could be seen in the UK I doubt that it is as widespread as you find in North American, please correct me if I am wrong though.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 5):
espect and dignity gauged in $$$, which is the O/P's main gripe ?

I went on money only because I did not want it to take an hour to real there are companies over here that pressure you to fly in bad weather and generally promote bad practice to improve the bottom line, to me this is not acceptable. While money may have part to do with it I was also implying that the respect of a pilots call (Weather bad no go or diversion etc) should be increased.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1984 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2055 times:

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 6):

The only issue I have is this. As far as being an Instructor I can see where the pay will be bad, but after that you can get jobs with companies with only 250 hours simply work on the ramp for 6 months to a year and before you know it you will be on the right seat of a light twin and off you go. I know a guy who works for Kenn Borek and he is very happy with how they treated him and put him on the aircraft. You CAN find a job without going through hell. I am thinking of joining the military myself, they treat you well. Not alot of flying time but they will give you good training and the whole thing, plus having the opportunity to serve your own country is the greatest thing anyone could do IMHO. However the thought of not getting in to the military would leave me to go the instruction route, which with a good company (I have contacts luckily) you will not have THAT hard of a time instructing.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineIPFreely From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 237 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2013 times:

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 2):
I know one guy who used to fly a DC-6 up north, he had to load and unload at some of the spots, he only got payed Hobbs time (common) anyways routinely he would have a 2 hour load 1 hour flight 2 hours unload and fly back make 30 dollars for his effort that day and that be that. Would you call this a fair practice?

Yes, I would, and it has nothing to do with "respect".

It's called capitalism where prices are set by the laws of supply and demand.


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