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AA's New York-Europe Presence  
User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 3 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5190 times:

Just clicking around tonight on their website, I realized that from their JFK hub, AA only serves LHR, CDG, BRU, FCO, and ZRH from their (very limited) European destinations. Why is this?

With (what seems to be) so many AAdvantage members in and around the NYC Metro area, I would have assumed AA to have more flights throughout Europe to cater to these fliers. Am I correct to assume they just try to feed the passengers through their BA, IB, etc, or is their feed in New York such that the majority of travelers AA carriers fly either domestically or to international destinations other than Europe?

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32604 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

AA serves a limited amount of destinations in Europe and perfers to route people through partners. And, with Open Skies finally on the way, they will be able to fully exploit their partnership with British Airways to do this.

A few years ago AA was planning a major expansion of JFK-Europe service using 757s. The first route, Newcastle, was announced, with Dusseldorf (never announced) to have followed. It never happened, however.



a.
User currently offlineNYCAAer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 692 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4892 times:

The NY-Europe market is saturated now with the recent expansions by CO and DL. With "Open Skies" happening soon, that may change, but we don't know anything yet. Personally, I think we're losing out. Once DL goes into LHR, our market share may erode because they'll get more corporate contracts because they offer a variety of destinations PLUS London-Heathrow.

In the past, we've flown JFK-MAN, JFK-FRA, JFK-LYS, and tag-on flights to GVA (via ORY or ZRH), HAM (via BRU) and STR (via ZRH).


User currently offlineDiscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4814 times:

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 2):
The NY-Europe market is saturated now with the recent expansions by CO and DL. With "Open Skies" happening soon, that may change, but we don't know anything yet. Personally,

I would be hesitant to call it "saturated," but the market is generally not underserved: between the CO/DL nonstops (and foreign carriers' flights), there's nonstop service to all the major markets, often by multiple carriers. There's also service to many secondary markets, but not all. There's growth potential especially to places like LYS, BOD, ABZ, and NCL, but AA doesn't seem to want to fly these routes.

And there's there's the connecting traffic carried on Star (via FRA, MUC, CPH, VIE) and SkyTeam (AMS, CDG, MXP). With Open Skies, LHR will be better utilized as a OneWorld connection point.

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 2):
Once DL goes into LHR, our market share may erode because they'll get more corporate contracts because they offer a variety of destinations PLUS London-Heathrow.

DL is certainly is a position to gain a lot from Open Skies.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32604 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4752 times:

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 2):
Once DL goes into LHR, our market share may erode because they'll get more corporate contracts because they offer a variety of destinations PLUS London-Heathrow.

Doubt it. Delta will probably only offer 2-3x daily at first. Also, with Open Skies, AA and BA will be able to codeshare on JFK-LHR, which is huge, offering over a dozen daily NYC-LON frequencies. Plus, the real valuable contracts come from London, not New York City.

No doubt Delta entering JFK-LHR is going to be a pain, but AA is still benefiting from Open Skies, too, and will do just fine.



a.
User currently offlineSandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3427 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4693 times:

I'm actually surprised that ZRH hasnt been axed yet. They started the route when they had a strong partnership with LX, feeding pax from NY and Dallas to ZRH and onwards to their final destinations on LX metal (and vice versa). When LX joined *A and not Oneworld as everybody expected, the partnership was abandoned, but AA hasn't since axed neither DFW-ZRH nor JFK-ZRH. I know that the route is doing well load factor wise, but the yields seem to be there aswell, as i suppose that the route would have been axed if it did bad.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32604 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4657 times:

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 5):
AA hasn't since axed neither DFW-ZRH nor JFK-ZRH. I know that the route is doing well load factor wise, but the yields seem to be there aswell, as i suppose that the route would have been axed if it did bad.

I don't know about JFK-ZRH, but DFW-ZRH is consistently one of AA's three most profitable European routes (the other two are MIA-LHR and ORD-MAN).



a.
User currently offlineDiscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4419 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
I don't know about JFK-ZRH, but DFW-ZRH is consistently one of AA's three most profitable European routes (the other two are MIA-LHR and ORD-MAN).

What is your source for these mildly surprising data?


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4875 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4376 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
but DFW-ZRH is consistently one of AA's three most profitable European routes

Is this still the case post-LX codeshares?

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 5):
the partnership was abandoned, but AA hasn't since axed neither DFW-ZRH nor JFK-ZRH. I know that the route is doing well load factor wise, but the yields seem to be there aswell, as i suppose that the route would have been axed if it did bad

Outside of the usual peak periods (e.g., school holidays, etc.) loads in the back on JFK-ZRH are really not that great, especially since the end of the LX codeshares...The J cabin does get filled on business travel days (i.e., Thurs/Fri/Sat westbounds and Sat/Sun/Mon eastbounds for the US business traveler - they don't attract much of the Swiss business travel crowd anymore since the end of the LX partnership).


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32604 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4368 times:

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 7):

What is your source for these mildly surprising data?

It has been posted here before.

Although I don't see why they are surprising. The most profitable routes are never the obvious, and they surely aren't routes that are flown by eight airlines with nearly three dozen daily flights (i.e. NYC-LON).

Quoting Panamair (Reply 8):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
but DFW-ZRH is consistently one of AA's three most profitable European routes

Is this still the case post-LX codeshares?

I don't know the 2006 figures, other than Miami-Buenos Aires continues to be AA's most profitable route, four years running.

[Edited 2007-04-25 22:11:04]


a.
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4308 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 8):
Is this still the case post-LX codeshares?

LX does not have any codeshare anymore with AA. Therefore I am wondering that AA is keeping the JFK-ZRH flight.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
LX does not have any codeshare anymore with AA. Therefore I am wondering that AA is keeping the JFK-ZRH flight.

Even without a codeshare, AA still puts an enormous amount of interline connecting traffic onto LX flights at ZRH from its DFW and JFK flights. The same is true of AA flights from DFW and ORD to FRA -- lots of the traffic is put onto LH flights onward to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, India, etc.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24824 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4106 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
LX does not have any codeshare anymore with AA. Therefore I am wondering that AA is keeping the JFK-ZRH flight.

Even without a codeshare, AA still puts an enormous amount of interline connecting traffic onto LX flights at ZRH from its DFW and JFK flights. The same is true of AA flights from DFW and ORD to FRA -- lots of the traffic is put onto LH flights onward to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, India, etc.

There is a mistaken impression that major airlines only interline with their alliance partners. That is totally incorrect. Almost all major carriers have dozens of interline agreements with airlines all over the world, including carriers that are members of competing alliances. Not every alliance sevices every point in the world.

If not mistaken, AA has generally preferred to limit their own international services to markets with strong origin/destination demand, which probably accounts for their less extensive number of destinations served with their own aircraft.


User currently offlineBCALBOY From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Doubt it. Delta will probably only offer 2-3x daily at first. Also, with Open Skies, AA and BA will be able to codeshare on JFK-LHR, which is huge, offering over a dozen daily NYC-LON frequencies. Plus, the real valuable contracts come from London, not New York City.


Open Skies alone doesn-t mean BA/AA will codeshare on each others LHR services.
Other regulatory approvals would be required and In fact Willie Walsh has been quoted as saying the
price sought ( e.g. being forced to surrender dozens of slot pairs) was likely to be too high and while BA
would investigate the situation , he thought it unlikely there would be aa major change in the level of
co-operation between BA/AA in the near future.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Although I don't see why they are surprising. The most profitable routes are never the obvious, and they surely aren't routes that are flown by eight airlines with nearly three dozen daily flights (i.e. NYC-LON).

Don-t you believe it.!
Unless AA are doing an awful lot worse than BA/VS in terms of load/yield , I would be very surprised if its not
their best European route. I am sure its best route for BA/VS.
There are lot of flights but the traffic volumes including Premium traffic are also huge.
Thats why DL called LHR the jewel in the crown and why they were prepared to pay UA to get on LGW/JFK even though LGW isn-t a patch on LHR in terms of Premium traffic .


User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4022 times:

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 10):
Therefore I am wondering that AA is keeping the JFK-ZRH flight.

There is a market for JFK-ZRH, and a very high yielding on at that. The codeshare helped, but there is enough demand for more than one carrier on the route.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32604 posts, RR: 72
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3935 times:

Quoting BCALBOY (Reply 13):

Don-t you believe it.!
Unless AA are doing an awful lot worse than BA/VS in terms of load/yield , I would be very surprised if its not
their best European route. I am sure its best route for BA/VS.

Why wouldn't I believe it? I've seen the facts straight from the source.

What you have to remember is that when you look at a list of "most profitable routes" it is by flight, not by total flights. So, while MIA-LHR makes more money per flight than JFK-LHR, it is pretty obvious that JFK-LHR makes more money overall, considering it's six times the frequency.



a.
User currently offlineBCALBOY From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3911 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
What you have to remember is that when you look at a list of "most profitable routes" it is by flight, not by total flights. So, while MIA-LHR makes more money per flight than JFK-LHR, it is pretty obvious that JFK-LHR makes more money overall, considering it's six times the frequency

I understand that.
BA flys to LAD once a week and that may be one of the most profitable flts but the original post stated AA's
most profitable route not their most profitable flight . Route to me means all the flts between a city-pair
combined.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32604 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3892 times:

Quoting BCALBOY (Reply 16):
I understand that.
BA flys to LAD once a week and that may be one of the most profitable flts but the original post stated AA's
most profitable route not their most profitable flight . Route to me means all the flts between a city-pair
combined.

I see you point, though when airlines make lists of most profitable routes (which are rarely made public), they are scaled to a per flight basis, which is typically what people mean when they say "most profitable route", even though you are correct that the terminology is off.



a.
User currently offlineB4REAL From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2629 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 7):
What is your source for these mildly surprising data?

MAH is usually good on this stuff. Just like we know here that ATL-AMS is one of DL's most profitable routes (which like you say is surprising for AA - this is surprising for DL - as KL serves ATL and AMS is generally well served for the US).



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently onlineAJMIA From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 731 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3717 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
Even without a codeshare, AA still puts an enormous amount of interline connecting traffic onto LX flights at ZRH from its DFW and JFK flights. The same is true of AA flights from DFW and ORD to FRA -- lots of the traffic is put onto LH flights onward to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, India, etc.

This may be true, but since the AA/LX frequent flyer and codeshare agreement came to an end last year I have seen a lot fewer LX ZRH-MIA passengers connecting to AA at MIA.
Initially when the codeshare ended we expected that AA would move either DFW-ZRH or JFK-ZRH to MIA because we had about 80 AA/LX connections per flight. I guess LX was able to fill their MIA flights just fine without the agreement just as AA has been able to do with JFK and DFW.
I miss having LX as codeshare partner at MIA. They were great to work with.


Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
What you have to remember is that when you look at a list of "most profitable routes" it is by flight, not by total flights. So, while MIA-LHR makes more money per flight than JFK-LHR, it is pretty obvious that JFK-LHR makes more money overall, considering it's six times the frequency.

We send so many MIA-LON passengers over other gateways it is not funny. AA could easily fill a second if not a third daily MIA-LHR flight, the yield would suffer, but I imagine the flights would be profitable.

A morning departure on F/J/S/M would be awesome for the local market as well as connections for the inbound redeye flights.

A late night flight would be good to satisfy price sensitive demand as well as batting clean up for overseas bound misconnects. When we had the MIA-MAN flight we used to get tons of reroutes and oversales from BA and the other European carriers.

AJMIA



Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32604 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3680 times:

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 19):

This may be true, but since the AA/LX frequent flyer and codeshare agreement came to an end last year I have seen a lot fewer LX ZRH-MIA passengers connecting to AA at MIA.
Initially when the codeshare ended we expected that AA would move either DFW-ZRH or JFK-ZRH to MIA because we had about 80 AA/LX connections per flight. I guess LX was able to fill their MIA flights just fine without the agreement just as AA has been able to do with JFK and DFW.
I miss having LX as codeshare partner at MIA. They were great to work with.

Many people said Swiss would have trouble at MIA after the AA partnership ended, but that's far from the truth. It remains LX's most profitable trans-Atlantic flight from Zurich. One reason for it - Tel Aviv. They have become a favourite on the Miami-Tel Aviv market and during peak travel, they connect as many as 35-50 people daily to Tel Aviv, nearly 1/4th the plane!

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 19):
We send so many MIA-LON passengers over other gateways it is not funny. AA could easily fill a second if not a third daily MIA-LHR flight, the yield would suffer, but I imagine the flights would be profitable.

AA tried a second daily a few years ago. It did pretty well, but not well enough. The flight still operates on weekends, though (Saturday during the sumer; SaSu during the winter). When AA and BA finally get codeshare approval, no doubt in my mind that, pending aircraft availability, AA will be running MIA-LHR 2x daily, year-round; and I bet BA adds a 3rd daily MIA-LHR. Huge, busy route, but the traffic potential is limited by AA/BA's inability to offer a full codeshare on the route.

[Edited 2007-04-26 06:08:32]


a.
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3655 times:

Quoting FLY777UAL (Thread starter):
With (what seems to be) so many AAdvantage members in and around the NYC Metro area, I would have assumed AA to have more flights throughout Europe to cater to these fliers.

If there were enough available airplanes, slots, crew and customers, AA would be flying more JFK to Europe flights.

AA's presence at JFK is as big as they are able to profitably make it.

With Contienntal being HUGE at Newark and Delta being semi-huge at JFK, the competition is incredible. And both have lower costs that AA.

AA is better served deploying its equipment on routes where they can earn more money.

Besides, AA has a very significant presence on New York. They service, one way or another, all the airports in the Greater New York Citry area.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineMedic2366 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3481 times:

Talking about AA's New York to Europe presence, check out this video. A reporter flew on a 777 from Miami to London on a 777 and they show the lie-flat beds in first class. Click on "London/European Vacations" under the video box on the right hand side of the web page. http://www.nbc6.net/departurelounge/5347129/detail.html

User currently offlineIcelandairMSP From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

One might think, however, that with their large new terminal there would be more of a push to use it as a flagship gateway. I figured this would be the case once it was complete and, even though it has been scaled back, it's still a very large terminal. Customs needs to be moved still though from what I hear.

In spite of the large presence of DL and CO in the area, I would take a gander that, as mentioned by a few other people, the lack of a significant European presence might have more to do with aircraft, staff, etc. availability as well as the likely very high costs of promoting and successfully implementing a range of new European services. Seeing as it will be awhile before AA gets really any new aircraft online, I don't think any new services are really imminent either. Bummer.


User currently offlineNYCAAer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 692 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3245 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Plus, the real valuable contracts come from London, not New York City.

I'm not conflicting you, but I work the JFK-LHR flights all the time, mostly in F and J. When you spend 7 or 8 hours with a small number of people, you get to know them fairly well. By far, most of the passengers up there are Americans, and most of them live in New York, and they work for Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse First Boston, JP Morgan Chase, Viacom, Pfizer, Colgate Palmolive, Avon and UBS Warburg. This coincides with what management has told us during our annual Purser Conferences. With the exception of CSFB and UBS, obviously, they are all companies headquartered in NY. All have significant business in London, but it would seem to me that if we had mostly American passengers living in NY traveling to LHR on business, it's the NY Sales team that has secured the most contracts. I never see anyone from Nat West, Barclays, HSBC or any other British company up there.


25 JFKPurser : It is mostly an issue of available aircraft. If there were more 767s and 777s in the fleet, we would see more European trips out of JFK, especially n
26 COEI2007 : I thi Well, through partners, they also serve DUB-EI SNN-EI MAN-BA MAD-IB HEL-AY IST-TK Adding in partner flights, they serve quite a few places!
27 MAH4546 : That's not conflicting me at all. You work for AA. It is obvious that the premium American flyers would tend to fly AA, as AA is a US airline. The pr
28 MaverickM11 : I believe DFW/ZRH is supported by a major seat block contract.
29 FLYACYYZ : ORD-MAN is a surprise regarding three most profitable. I was under the impression that from North America, cities such as MAN/GLA/DUB/SNN are traditi
30 COEI2007 : It depends on the airline and city served. With CO, MAN and DUB are very profitable. I'd also heard that DL's DUB service's turn a good profit!
31 STT757 : I've read that AA has cabin refurbishments in the works for their fleet of 757-200s, however there's nothing in there for an International First/Busin
32 UAL777UK : If they do and want to co-ordinate schedules and prices wont they have to go down the route of being forced to give up valuable slots at LHR. They we
33 ContinentalEWR : In order to make a large transatlantic network functional and profitable from NYC, you need to throw huge connecting opportunities behind one or two b
34 A380US : wrong AA and BA have code shares on many domestic and international flights but since this is a prime route for both airlines they dont want to codes
35 BCALBOY : Between UK and US , I think its just MAN to BOS,ORD,JFK. Its not so much that they don-t want to , the regulatory authorities wouldn-t let them unles
36 HPAEAA : ContienetalEWR said it, AA looks for O and D traffic, DL and CO rely more on connections, I think AA is probably happy with their domestic ops at LGA
37 MAH4546 : How is anything I said "wrong"? AA and BA cannot codeshare on USA-LON services. I didn't say anything about other services, of which AA/BA do codesha
38 RJpieces : Sure, CO offers a lot more connections than AA at JFK, but the reason CO has such a succesful hub is because of the healthy combination of NYC O&D pl
39 AJMIA : AA and BA would be overjoyed to codeshare on LHR flights. They have been lobbying for the right to codeshare on USA to London flights for years... Bu
40 Commavia : True, O&D is huge. However, the CO European operation out of EWR runs off connections. O&D from Newark and New York is huge -- no doubt, the most of
41 STT757 : According to Port Authority figures 78% of EWR's traffic is O&D while 81% of JFK's traffic is O&D, this is a recent development no doubt spurred in la
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