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AA Running PVG-ORD With 89 Passengers?!  
User currently offlineUa777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9855 times:

I was surfing through the FAA's Accident Database and found a turbulence incident on an AA 777. Listed 89 Passengers total. I'm sure this is not a normal occurrence but it can't be one of a kind. Are these low-load factors common on such long routes?

Thanks!

NTSB Identification: CHI07LA078
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of American Airlines Inc
Accident occurred Friday, February 23, 2007 in Chicago, IL
Aircraft: Boeing 777, registration: N779AN
Injuries: 1 Serious, 103 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On February 23, 2007, about 1222 coordinated universal time (UTC), a Boeing 777, N779AN, operated by American Airlines as flight 288, encountered moderate to severe turbulence during cruise flight. The international air carrier flight was being conducted under 14 CFR Part 121 on an instrument flight rules flight plan. One flight attendant was seriously injured. The remaining crew and 89 passengers were not injured. The flight departed Pudong International Airport (PVG), Shanghai, China, about 0951 UTC. The flight continued to the intended destination, O'Hare International Airport (ORD), Chicago, Illinois, landing about 2320 UTC.

The captain reported that the airplane was established in cruise at flight level 340 near Japan when it "encountered a brief (2-3 second) but very intense moderate-to-severe turbulence event." He noted that continuous moderate turbulence continued for approximately 30 seconds, and periods of occasional-to-continuous moderate chop for about 10 minutes after the initial encounter. He added that there were no returns on the weather radar, and no pilot reports or adverse ride report received from air traffic control. The fasten seat belt sign was on at the time of the encounter.

A flight attendant working in the aft cabin reported that the injured flight attendant was in the galley putting items away "when the aircraft suddenly drop[ped] and rose." She subsequently noticed the injured flight attendant on the floor being assisted by a passenger. The injured flight attendant was relocated to a first class seat and provided first aid.


[Edited 2007-05-04 07:59:54]


"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStealth777 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9594 times:

Quoting Ua777222 (Thread starter):
cruise at flight level 340 near Japan

out of curiosity, if he had an injured crew member and he was close to Japan, why didn't they land drop off the injured crew member and then continue onwards to O'Hare? well at least he/she enjoyed a nice ride in First from about Japan to ORD, although injured to some degree.

-stealth


User currently offlineDFW13L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9574 times:

Just put it this way. One time when I was up in ORD and the PVG flight was getting ready to depart, I wandered over to the gate to watch, in awe of the flight. On that day it was oversold and they were really hooking up the volunteers. $800 voucher plus a confirmed F ticket the next day! I thought to myself, I would have done it. Not sure if it was a volunteer or invol, as I wanted to observe but not get too "nosy."

User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9573 times:

IMHO, she could not have been seriously injured as otherwise they would have had to divert. On another point, I assume their loads are improving, not that they will ditch the flight at any cost as I guess that would scupper any chance of getting any other China frequencies in the future.

User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8579 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9535 times:
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Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 3):
IMHO, she could not have been seriously injured as otherwise they would have had to divert.

actually according to the report it was serious

Quoting Ua777222 (Thread starter):
NTSB Identification: CHI07LA078
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of American Airlines Inc
Accident occurred Friday, February 23, 2007 in Chicago, IL
Aircraft: Boeing 777, registration: N779AN
Injuries: 1 Serious, 103 Uninjured.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9355 times:

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 4):
actually according to the report it was serious

I knw what the report say!!.........But if it was that serious, why did they not divert, that s what i am trying to put across. What does AA regard as serious and not serious to warrant a diversion.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8471 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9198 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5):
I knw what the report say!!.........But if it was that serious, why did they not divert, that s what i am trying to put across. What does AA regard as serious and not serious to warrant a diversion.

It could be serious but not life-threatning, right? Say, a cracked rib for example or a sprain ankle.


User currently offlineWarreng24 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9146 times:

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 4):
actually according to the report it was serious

Yes, after they landed and a formal medical evaluation was performed, it could have been correctly deemed serious.

However in the air, if there was no medical staff or appropriate tools/equipment to make an accurace diagnosis, it may not have been deemed serious.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20728 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9080 times:

Quoting Ua777222 (Thread starter):
Are these low-load factors common on such long routes?

While it's probably not "usual", given the low number of nonstop frequencies between the US and China, and the intense bidding for new routes, the low passenger count would certainly allow AA to stuff the belly full nicely-yielding cargo.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9010 times:

Quoting Ua777222 (Thread starter):
Are these low-load factors common on such long routes?

Well I noticed it happened on:

Quoting Ua777222 (Thread starter):
Friday, February 23, 2007

This is pretty much around the time of the Chinese New Year holiday this year I think? I'm sure it was mid to late Feb.

Chances are there were some pretty busy flights going to China around then but not very full coming out at least until the end of the new year period?



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8900 times:

This is a stupid thread.....one day doesnt make a trend.

From what Ive heard, both UA and AA are running chock block full on ORD-PVG.


User currently offlineFxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7307 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8771 times:
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Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 10):
From what Ive heard, both UA and AA are running chock block full on ORD-PVG

 checkmark 

This is an isolated case. The AA flight to PVG does very well for them. If it wasn't doing well it'd go the way of KIX and NGO.



I miss the old Anet.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9234 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8736 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 3):
IMHO, she could not have been seriously injured as otherwise they would have had to divert.

Like Jaqueline Bisset's character in "Airport."

This is a bit of a silly thread though. I was on a WN flight that had 40 people on board... Of course there was a good reason for it. It was a Tuesday afternoon, a light travel day...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8548 times:

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 4):
actually according to the report it was serious

But according to 49 CFR 830.2, a broken finger or toe, which would certainly not require a diversion, is a serious injury.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8450 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
But according to 49 CFR 830.2, a broken finger or toe, which would certainly not require a diversion, is a serious injury.

Thats just amazing if thats the case.


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7925 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 14):
Thats just amazing if thats the case.

What's amazing, that it doesn't require a diversion or that a broken bone is considered serious?

Of course a broken bone is a serious injury! Broken bones often need to be re-set immediately or they can cause permanent disfigurement or worse (a leg broken in a certain way, allowed to heal improperly can cause back injury and other problems).

It can't be left up to airlines to decide what bone breaks require immediate attention and what breaks don't. When I was younger, for example, I had a hair-line crack in my ankle that was initially judged not serious, but in fact I had also broken my growth plate, which if not treated immediately would have meant one of my legs would have eventually been several inches shorter than the other.

This whole situation is another reason why I think there need to be doctors or at least trained medical staff of some kind on board all long-haul international flights. Yes, it would cost money (though not *that* much money - first-year doctor salaries at US hospitals are in the low $30k range, and you'd be spreading that cost out among hundreds of passengers per day). But it seems like at least once a week we're hearing about somebody being injured or even dying on board an airliner and not receiving any medical care for hours. I don't understand how this can continue to be allowed to happen. The cost of the lawsuits that inevitably follow have got to be higher than the costs of just hiring a few first-year doctors to ride long-haul flights.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7491 times:

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 15):
Broken bones often need to be re-set immediately or they can cause permanent disfigurement or worse

Utter nonsense. The bone can be set hours after the fact. It doesn't magically tack-weld into an improper position. sarcastic 

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 15):
first-year doctor salaries at US hospitals are in the low $30k range

Umm..."first-year doctors" at hospitals are still in training, that's why the pay is low. A "real" doctor licensed as a general practitioner (which is what you would need on an airliner) would cost $100K at least. Not to mention that a "real" doctor wouldn't be able to do much of anything while in the air...so what's the point? To do triage?

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 15):
I don't understand how this can continue to be allowed to happen. The cost of the lawsuits that inevitably follow have got to be higher than the costs of just hiring a few first-year doctors to ride long-haul flights.

You are obviously wrong. The cost of doctors wasting their time flying on airlines apparently far exceeds any value the airline might receive by providing such a cover-our-asses service.

Spacecadet (you chose the name!), do you actually think there is some pool of surplus doctors available to man every long-haul flight in the air? Seems obvious to me that there is a shortage of medical care all over this planet, not to be wasted on such ridiculous proposals. thumbsdown 



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7095 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 14):
Thats just amazing if thats the case.

Why? It's much easier do simply define all broken bones as serious than to pick and choose which are and which are not.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2087 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6755 times:

Here is a sample of this weeks passenger counts Arrival/Departure for AA 288/289

Flt 288 Flt 289

4/30 - 230 / 158
5/1 - 218 / 181
5/2 - 204 / 196
5/3 - 187 / 197
5/4- 150 / 229



John@SFO
User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6701 times:

Quoting Legacyins (Reply 18):
Here is a sample of this weeks passenger counts Arrival/Departure for AA 288/289

Seems pretty normal to me. There are times when the flight would be ridiculously light but that is not always an indication of how the flight is doing on a whole.

Ej. GND/JFK/GND are usually very filled flights. But I remember one New Years eve, the flight left with 9 passengers, yes 9, not even to fill the F/C cabin.

[Edited 2007-05-04 21:33:09]


There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineAirlineEcon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4650 times:

I took AA ORD-PVG back in early December. In coach almost everyone had enough room to make a bed out of the 5 abreast middle section. Business class only had a few empty seats, and walking through first deplaning there was only 1 ruffled seat. Best of all the ticket only cost about $600. 89 Pax would seem reasonable to me on my flight.

User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5):

I knw what the report say!!.........But if it was that serious, why did they not divert, that s what i am trying to put across. What does AA regard as serious and not serious to warrant a diversion.

If I was a US-based (possibly even ORD based) flight crew member and had suffered a broken ankle or whatever serious yet non-life threatening injury this person had... I would most certainly want to be taken stateside for the injury. Who wants to get dumped off alone in a foreign land when you're going to be semi-incapacitated? It's not as if they could leave a couple extra FA's off in Japan with the person to take care of them. He/she could have received far better care (as far as people to tend for hin/her outside of the hospital after getting the bone set... ride home, etc.) in Chicago than in Japan. Nothing against Japan, or any foreign land, it's just the old "there's no place like home" syndrome. It's most likely a broken bone looking at the FAR's for these kinds of injury categorizations, hell I had one for weeks before I ever had anything done about it. It's not like you're going to die if it's not set within xx number of hours.


User currently offlineTristanHNL From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2006, 174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3293 times:

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 16):
Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 15):
Broken bones often need to be re-set immediately or they can cause permanent disfigurement or worse

Utter nonsense. The bone can be set hours after the fact. It doesn't magically tack-weld into an improper position.

As a registered radiologic technologist of radiography, I can vouch for Spacecadet that he is not talking nonsense. Not utterly anyway as you suggest. In the case of pediatrics, surgery to reduce fractures need to occur as soon as possible after trauma, because kids' bones heal very quickly. Doesn't matter if it's 2 a.m. in the morning an entire surgical team gets called in: an orthopedic surgeon, an anesthesiologist, a couple of nurses, a scrub tech, and more often than not, a rad tech to operate a portable x-ray fluoroscope "camera" (also known as a c-arm). The younger the child, such as a 7 year old, the more urgent the case. A 15 year old....not as urgent but still high on the priority list. But seeing how spacecadet talked about a hairline fracture in his metaphysis (growth plate) at an age at which he is still growing, he is not lying in saying if it were left unfixed he would be handicapped later on.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 16):
Umm..."first-year doctors" at hospitals are still in training, that's why the pay is low.

Correct. A "first year" doctor in training at a hospital is known as a resident, as is a 2nd, 3rd, 4th or even 5th year. A doctor who trains further is probably already specializing outside of internal medicine/surgery, and would then be known as a fellow, I believe.

[Edited 2007-05-05 06:25:33]


Hong Kong: truly Asia's world city!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

Quoting TristanHNL (Reply 22):
As a registered radiologic technologist of radiography, I can vouch for Spacecadet that he is not talking nonsense. Not utterly anyway as you suggest. In the case of pediatrics, surgery to reduce fractures need to occur as soon as possible after trauma, because kids' bones heal very quickly.

But surely you'd agree that most fractures that adults suffer can safely be treated 12-24 hours after the injury with no adverse effect at all... (I'm not talking about compound fractures or femurs or really catastrophic stuff here, but the everyday fractures).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineTristanHNL From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2006, 174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
But surely you'd agree that most fractures that adults suffer can safely be treated 12-24 hours after the injury with no adverse effect at all... (I'm not talking about compound fractures or femurs or really catastrophic stuff here, but the everyday fractures).

I never said all adults need to be treated immediately as well. I was providing an example to refute TeamAmerica's "utter nonsense" assertion. I gave an example in which surgical intervention needs to be executed promptly. But yes, not all fractures are equal. Heck, even femoral neck fractures in little old ladies who fell do not get treated right away (because geriatics' bones do not heal quickly). Generally the older the patient the less urgent the case becomes.



Hong Kong: truly Asia's world city!
25 Cubsrule : Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you did. Just trying to verify that my understanding as a lay person was right.
26 Post contains images TristanHNL : No harm done   But yes, your understanding is correct. Now I'm intrigued what a layperson such as yourself considers to be an "everyday fracture". I
27 Aa757first : All flight attendants are trained in basic first aid, adult, pediatric and neonatal CPR and AED operation. And on a long haul flight carrying 200 peo
28 Jacobin777 : ...there no such things as "5th year" (or even "4th year") residents....its only 3 years..afterwards, one does a fellowship in various fields such as
29 TristanHNL : Thanks for the correction. I was a bit fuzzy on that which was why I ended my statement with "...I believe". I got confused because the hospital I wo
30 Cubsrule : When I said femur, I was thinking something further down the bone, such as we see happen to professional athletes from time to time. However, in the
31 Post contains images Jacobin777 : your welcome..it does get a bit confusing at times..I just happen to know because about 50%-60% of my entire family are in medicine and I did researc
32 LMP737 : Just a little bit of FYI but yesterdays and todays ORD-PVG flights were packed with only a handfull of empty seats. Tommorows flight is oversold.
33 CoolGuy : According to 49 CFR 830.2: Serious injury means any injury which: (1) Requires hospitalization for more than 48 hours, commencing within 7 days from t
34 Hagas : Off topic, but there certainly are fourth and fifth year residents. One such example is general surgery, which is five years. After completing their r
35 A380US : and wouldnt it be FL34 not FL340?
36 CoolGuy : FL = multiples of 100 feet not 1000. Also flight levels don't exist below appx 18000.
37 Jacobin777 : ...didn't know about that..my uncle was a general surgeon...he never spoke of 4th or 5th year residents.....I'll ask my parents or my brothers about
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