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KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?  
User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 16019 times:

KLM flight 577 from Amsterdam to Abuja and Kano was delayed yesterday for three hours. According to a passenger on the flight they were told that the wings were bended too much (out of the secure limitations). Passengers were transferred to another A332 and left AMS three hours later.

Does anybody know what happened exactly and if this is something that happens more frequently (on a relatively new A332)?

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15793 times:

Sounds like complete rubbish to me - sounds like your mate is having you on.

The wings are able to bend upwards to mad, mad angles - An A332's wings, even at beyond MTOW will bend on takeoff but nothing like that much. If the wings were bent that much it would have to have been clear air turbulence and pretty severe stuff at that. If that were the case we would be hearing about major injuries and possibly deaths amongst the pax/crew in that kind of turbulence.

The wings are certified to a huge bend angle, although before they get anywhere near that angle they would probably be hauled in for a precautionary survey to make sure nothings come loose. I dont think there is actually any way of measuring wing-bend to the best of my knowledge - there isnt a read-out or monitor in the cockpit that i've ever heard of, so the point is that they wouldnt know how much the wings have bent anyway i wouldnt have thought.

If it was very heavy turbulence then they would haul the frame in for a survey but it would be the longitudinal bending of the fuselage between frames they would be looking at I would think. Would have to be EXTREME turbulence to take an A330 offline for a survey though - if it was that bad we probably would have heard about it.

More than likely the A330 went tech for something much more mundane and your mate heard wrong. Generally airlines dont lie to passengers about what is wrong if something goes tech.

[Edited 2007-05-04 11:51:00]


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15678 times:

The plane was still on the ground when this was apparantly discovered by (a) ground technician(s). After close inspections, while the passengers were waiting on board it was decided the aircraft was not suitable to fly. Hence a spare aircraft was prepared and the passengers and cargo transferred. This is the story I heard, wasn't there so don't know how realiable this all is. Anybody from KLM with some insight information?

User currently offlineFLYtoEGCC From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15516 times:

If he definitely heard it was something to do with limitations on the airframe, maybe it could possibly have been a loading error and the aircraft was inadvertently loaded above its Maximum Zero Fuel Mass limitation or something, which means it would probably have to be checked over by engineers before it was allowed to fly again. That's a guess, obviously, but it seems logical.


Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
User currently offlineAndrewtang From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 461 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15483 times:

Well in the last few years or so, Airbus did issued a warning to airlines to instruct them to check on their A330/A340s after it was reported to them that cracks were found on the wings during a check by an airline.

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15435 times:

Quoting FLYtoEGCC (Reply 3):
If he definitely heard it was something to do with limitations on the airframe, maybe it could possibly have been a loading error and the aircraft was inadvertently loaded above its Maximum Zero Fuel Mass limitation or something, which means it would probably have to be checked over by engineers before it was allowed to fly again. That's a guess, obviously, but it seems logical.

To Kano and Abuja - I would think she would have been close to MTOW once fuelled, so they would have been extra careful for this not to happen. I agree it seems logical but id be amazed if KL have actually allowed this to happen.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlinePilot21 From Ireland, joined Oct 1999, 1384 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15383 times:

Quoting Andrewtang (Reply 4):
reported to them that cracks were found on the wings during a check by an airline.

This relates to a BMI A330 which was out of service from Oct to Jan after a cracked wing spar was found. It is assumed that the crack occurred during a very heavy landing, but to the best of my knowledge, no further incidents or issues with cracked wings have been reported with A330/A340's
Is it possible somebody hit the wing of the KLM aircraft during loading, and the guy heard the announcement wrong when they decided to take the aircraft out of service to check it over?

Pilot21



Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
User currently offlineFLYtoEGCC From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 947 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15368 times:

Agree! But stranger things have happened - the Emirates A340 not making it off the ground due to a loadsheet error springs to mind; you could say you'd be surprised if Emirates allowed that to happen, but for some reason it did. People make mistakes.

I do agree with you though it's probably unlikely in this case - it was just a vague idea to throw into the mix.



Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
User currently offlinePhilb From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15350 times:

In the early 1980s (1981 if I remeber correctly) I was on BA's BAC 1-11 G-AVMZ flying Manchester - Dusseldorf - Berlin.

We hit severe CAT over the east of England and just before we hit the starboard wing, over which I was sitting, bent upwards by around 30 degrees without the aircraft banking. Then we hit the rough stuff for around 30 seconds.

After the mayhem had calmed down - slightly injured cabin crew, food and drink over everthing and everyone plus the Captain with a cut on his head as he had been about to leave his seat for the toilet - the Captain came through the cabin to reassure people. I was sitting next to a Tornado development pilot and we both reported the wing bending - which we both appreciated was within tolerance.

On arrival at Dusseldorf engineers inspected the wing and opened a couple of panels - presumably to look for fuel seepage or any visible damage to control runs/cabling and, after two hours delay, we continued to Berlin.

On arrival at Berlin the aircraft was taken out of service and ferried straight back to Manchester for a detailed inspection. I was at Tegel two days later when it was returned to Berlin to take up its roster on BA's German services with a clean bill of health.

It is a prudent airline that carries out detailed checks after such incidents and the wing doesn't have to come close to its design limits for damage to be cause to systems and structures contained within the wing - without affecting the airworthiness of the flying surfaces or load bearing structures.


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14919 times:

Quoting Philb (Reply 8):
In the early 1980s (1981 if I remeber correctly) I was on BA's BAC 1-11 G-AVMZ flying Manchester - Dusseldorf - Berlin.

We hit severe CAT over the east of England and just before we hit the starboard wing, over which I was sitting, bent upwards by around 30 degrees without the aircraft banking. Then we hit the rough stuff for around 30 seconds.

After the mayhem had calmed down - slightly injured cabin crew, food and drink over everthing and everyone plus the Captain with a cut on his head as he had been about to leave his seat for the toilet - the Captain came through the cabin to reassure people. I was sitting next to a Tornado development pilot and we both reported the wing bending - which we both appreciated was within tolerance.

On arrival at Dusseldorf engineers inspected the wing and opened a couple of panels - presumably to look for fuel seepage or any visible damage to control runs/cabling and, after two hours delay, we continued to Berlin.

On arrival at Berlin the aircraft was taken out of service and ferried straight back to Manchester for a detailed inspection. I was at Tegel two days later when it was returned to Berlin to take up its roster on BA's German services with a clean bill of health.

It is a prudent airline that carries out detailed checks after such incidents and the wing doesn't have to come close to its design limits for damage to be cause to systems and structures contained within the wing - without affecting the airworthiness of the flying surfaces or load bearing structures.

Agreed - this is what I said. It should be noted that a notorious area for CAT is western sub-Saharan Africa every time i've flown over it it has been very bumpy and on occasion very bumpy indeed- I remember AF lost a cabin crew member on a 744 flight JNB-CDG a few years ago due to sudden and violent CAT and a close encounter with an airborne drinks trolley as I recall. I agree with you - i think more than likely it was a very bumpy ride and they took her out of line for a quick check to make sure.

Fair play to KL - you'd have to applaud that kind of safety mentality.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineQslinger From India, joined Apr 2006, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14574 times:

Quoting FLYtoEGCC (Reply 7):
Agree! But stranger things have happened - the Emirates A340 not making it off the ground due to a loadsheet error springs to mind; you could say you'd be surprised if Emirates allowed that to happen, but for some reason it did. People make mistakes.

More info on this would be appreciated..



Raj Koona
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14402 times:

Quoting Qslinger (Reply 10):
Quoting FLYtoEGCC (Reply 7):
Agree! But stranger things have happened - the Emirates A340 not making it off the ground due to a loadsheet error springs to mind; you could say you'd be surprised if Emirates allowed that to happen, but for some reason it did. People make mistakes.

More info on this would be appreciated..

There was an EK A343 departing JNB in 2005 - Crew selected the wrong FADEC thrust settings and only realised mid-way through the takeoff run that they wouldnt have enough oomph to get off - the PIC pulled back too sharply on the stick and the aircraft sustained significant u/c damage on the ILS and landing light pylons as it got off just in the nick of time.

Thats my recollection anyway.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14260 times:

A/c involved was PH-AOI. A dent was discovered on the right wing leading edge. PH-AOC took over but un- and reloading takes some time of course.

After polishing the dent the a/c was used later that day for KL409/ALA and is now on her way to KWI, luckily enough no severe damage.



I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlineOly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6682 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14241 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 11):
There was an EK A343 departing JNB in 2005 - Crew selected the wrong FADEC thrust settings and only realised mid-way through the takeoff run that they wouldnt have enough oomph to get off - the PIC pulled back too sharply on the stick and the aircraft sustained significant u/c damage on the ILS and landing light pylons as it got off just in the nick of time.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_4_19/ai_n9476427



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineTom12 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 1078 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14047 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
The wings are certified to a huge bend angle

Yeah, don't quote me to this but if memory serves, the 777's flex by more than 148%!

Tom



"Per noctem volamus" - Royal Air Force Bomber Squadron IX
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 13819 times:

Now this is too much~

Failed at 154%

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uo0C01Fwb8



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 13180 times:

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 12):
A/c involved was PH-AOI. A dent was discovered on the right wing leading edge. PH-AOC took over but un- and reloading takes some time of course.

Thanks for the info. I flew PH-AOI (Plaza de la Independencia) last monday (Queen's day) from Amsterdam to KAN as well.


User currently offlineChuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 762 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 12454 times:

Quoting Philb (Reply 8):
I was sitting next to a Tornado development pilot and we both reported the wing bending - which we both appreciated was within tolerance.

... and that is correct behaviour! as a passenger, if you see/smell something unusual, you should point it out to a member of crew (without going hysterical or panicky of course).

I was on an AF A320 a few months ago, pointed out to the Purser an unusual smell (flesh rotting, to be precise) coming from the overhead ventilation. We had a bit of a discussion (no, not hot, not burning etc), and I subsequently learnt they discovered a dead rat in one of the air conditioning packs (rather nip that one before it's reached full maturity! and stunk everybody out!).

I recall another post recently about a deadheading pilot noticing a patch of ice on the wing of the aircraft (after 2 de-ice). the copilot went out, verified, and they de-iced a 3rd time (correctly!).

You may also recall the Aloha 737 that went topless, one of the passengers had spotted fatigue cracks just aft of the doorframe, but didn't report it...


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11809 times:

Don't Airbus' have a more flexible wing than the Boeings?
For the record, what does OEW stand for? is it original equipment weight?



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineTimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11237 times:

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 18):
Don't Airbus' have a more flexible wing than the Boeings?

I have no idea. It may seem that way, but I imagine that both manufacturer's a/c are just as flexible in the wing dept!

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 18):
For the record, what does OEW stand for?

Operating Empty Weight


User currently offlinePygmalion From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 966 posts, RR: 38
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 10910 times:

I would imagine that both A and B are similar. BTW There is no certified or approved max bend angle. The wing is tested to 150% of max load with no permanent damage and thereby certified. On the aircraft I have seen tested, the wings tips were pretty high up before the wing broke. IIRC the 767 tip was 25'+ above nominal, the 777 similar. The 757 looked almost vertical at the tip. Impressive and I have never seen anything approach it in flight even in very heavy turbulence.

Ops manuals require a aircraft survey for damage after a hard landing or heavy turbulence. The maintenance manual details how and where to look for the damage. Skin wrinkles, popped rivets etc.


User currently offlineJycarlisle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9574 times:

Quoting Tom12 (Reply 14):
the 777's flex by more than 148%!

Even though I like to sit in a right side window seat behind the wing, remind me the next time I take a T7 flight to sit above the wing so that I can see how much it flexes during flight.

Cheers
Jeremy


User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3849 times:

I just realized that this whole thread is based on a hearing malfunction someone heard 'bent' instead of 'dent'

Compare 'dent in wing' to 'bended wing' and the pronunciation is indeed quite similar!

[Edited 2007-05-05 11:00:13]


I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlinePhilb From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3571 times:

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 22):
I just realized that this whole thread is based on a hearing malfunction someone heard 'bent' instead of 'dent'

You are spot on.

Quoting Jycarlisle (Reply 21):
Even though I like to sit in a right side window seat behind the wing, remind me the next time I take a T7 flight to sit above the wing so that I can see how much it flexes during flight.

Next time on a 747-400, particularly if on a 10 hour plus sector, just watch how much the wing bends as it takes the load on take off. You will also see a marked droop on every landing as the wheels take the load.


User currently offlineLarSPL From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3466 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5):
I would think she would have been close to MTOW once fuelled, so they would have been extra careful for this not to happen.

in aviation we are extra carefull when emtpy and when fully loaded. to be extra carefull because she is loaded near mtow makes no sence: there is a very larger safety area above mtow before problems occur.

A dent is no big deal at all. the only big deal involved is some minor maintenance and major paper work.



facebook.com/ddaclassicairlines
25 KL577 : I realized this as well, given the fact that my source is both not a native English speaker and had been travelling already for 24 hours, he probably
26 Post contains images Goldorak : Some crew members were injured but no dead. It's a pax who died following severe injuries. As far as I remember, CAT were not involved. Their weather
27 Post contains links Zeke : "The pilot had used an erroneous take-off technique after receiving a training “tip” for achieving accurate rotation without incurring a tailstri
28 AlecxiA319 : I don't know I've never even been on one, but in PHL, i saw US Airways' A330's! It was huge, it wasn't flying, sooo I can't imagine how the wings were
29 Tom12 : I didn't mean that it flexed that during flight. I meant during the tests they could take it to more than that. Tom
30 EI321 : Bendy wings? Maybe this plane cought a dose of 747-8 fever.
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