OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27539 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8711 times:
Hmm sounds interesting . Would be nice and would solve the problem of missed connections due to LHR delays. I wonder if they would thru check bags, offer miles and lounges at stations. Would it be like flying KLM AF for instance. It would be a fusion of plane and train spotters LOL...
I think it could be quite exciting, you take a High Speed train from Central London, to Paris (presumably CDG), then connect to a flight from CDG to wherever you are going.
Maybe the consortium realises that when the new line opens later this year, airlines are likely to suffer a huge drop in passengers on London - Paris?
What do you make of it?
Later this year will see the opening of the hi-speed railtrack between Amsterdam and Brussels. Hi-speed trains will be operated on this track (and further on to Paris) by a company called High-Speed Alliance. This is a joint venture by the Nederlandse Spoorwegen (Dutch Railways) and KLM. I guess a potential extension to London could be an interesting expansion for this company.
I am not sure whether or not any airline has an interest in Thalys who operate trains between Paris, Brussels and beyond.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26219 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8308 times:
Quoting KL577 (Reply 2): Later this year will see the opening of the hi-speed railtrack between Amsterdam and Brussels.
I wonder whether KL will eliminate air service AMS-BRU when the high-speed rail service begins, as AF did between CDG and BRU when high-speed trains went into service there? And Paris-Brussels is further than Amsterdam-Brussels if not mistaken.
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3196 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8119 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3): Paris-Brussels is further than Amsterdam-Brussels if not mistaken.
Distance-wise, CDG-BRU is 252 km whereas AMS-BRU is only 158 km. However, total travel time Brussels-South (Zuid/Midi) to CDG will be a 5 minutes shorter than Brussels - Schiphol. The TGV from Brussels to CDG takes 1:16. Brussels-AMS will be something like 1:20. This is mostly because the Brussels-CDG train doesn't stop in between, whereas the train from Brussels to AMS will call at Antwerp, Breda and Rotterdam. A positive thing is that all high-speed trains from Brussels/Paris to Amsterdam will always call at Schiphol rail station.
Having said that, I don't expect the AMS-BRU service to be around in 2010 any longer.
You are correct, of course. The OP was talking about London to CDG so I replied with the AF service between Brussels and CDG in mind, even though I know from personal experience that there is no through check-in via AMS. I'll have to try taking the train to AMS again soon, because my last (and only) experience so far this past summer was not impressive. On-time departure, 45 minutes late on arrival and passed by two NS trains along the way (admittedly that was also the very day after some major construction was supposed to be over - probably late). The food was pretty good by mass transit standards, however.
Quoting Joost (Reply 6): I'm not exactly sure, but AFAIK when traveling ZYR (Antwerp rail station) - AMS on Thalys on a KL-number, you get a second class seat for an economy airline ticket.
My guess is because KL-numbered trains to/from AMS do not include a dedicated KLM car, unlike AF trains.
EIRules From Ireland, joined Aug 2007, 851 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7609 times:
Sounds like an interesting concept. What is to stop LH and LX doing something similar (and dont say the Alps). Would this lead to long haul routes that are operated long haul by AF ex CDG and by KL ex AMS being axed by one and the connections being say NRT-CDG-AMS-CAI rather than just NRT-AMS-CAI
Next Flights: EI DUB-LHR A320, BA LHR-SFO B744, UA SFO-LAS A320, BA LAS-LHR B744, EI LHR-DUB A320
High-speed trains are replacing short-haul flights, not cutting down on the number of long-haul ones. Your scenario would actually put AF and KL at a commercial disadvantage over other carriers such as BA or LH that would be able to offer one-stop service, which anyone other than a mileage (or train) junkie would prefer over a two-stop itinerary.
High-speed trains are also generally not thought of to connect one airport to another, but to connect the downtown area of one city to the airport in another, the idea being that passengers avoid the inconvenience and hassle of having to go to the airport for a short trip and begin (or end) instead at a more relaxing/convenient train station. Trains to CDG from Belgium, for instance, leave from Brussels' largest train station, not from BRU. In the opposite direction, SN code-shares on a couple of trains a day from Paris' main train station to BRU.
What keeps other airlines from duplicating the use of high speed trains out of CDG/AMS is more likely than not the lack of infrastructure. To be high speed, high-speed trains often need dedicated tracks to avoid slower traffic, bypass railroad crossings, smaller cities, and be able to reach their cruising speed, as current tracks often slope too much or turn too tight to let a train take it at full speed, all at a very steep cost.
If the money is there, pretty much any high density route that could be completed in two hours or less by high-speed train is a candidate to substitute trains for planes. Markets such as ZRH - GVA, LHR - MAN or DFW - IAH would be perfect.
This being said, you do not need high speed trains to effectively combine trains and planes, however. LX, for instance, has let passengers check in at most large train stations in Switzerland well before trains were barreling down the track at 250 km/h between CDG and Brussels.
PHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7471 times:
Quoting Joost (Reply 6):
I'm not exactly sure, but AFAIK when traveling ZYR (Antwerp rail station)
Joost, not to rain on your parade but the correct IATA codes for the AMS-CDG rail connection are from North to South:
ZYA - Amsterdam Central Station (NS)
AMS - Amsterdam Schiphol Airport
QRH - Rotterdam Central Station (NS)
ZYZ - Antwerp Berchem Station (NMBS)
ZYR - Brussels South/Midi Station (NMBS)
XDB - (Lille Europe (SNCF) - Thalys service does not call here, but TGV does)
CDG - Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport
TGV-Service continues to AF/KL destinations directly from ZYR and possibly from the Netherlands when the new line is open):
XYD - Lyon Part Dieu (SNCF)
XRF - Marseille St Charles (SNCF)
ZYR-XRF is currently just over 5 hours by TGV, already quite difficult to beat by plane when traveling from city center to city center; when you assume you need to check-in luggage that is.
TGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 874 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6977 times:
Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 12): I've traveled on conventional train in Europe but never on TGV or other high speed. At that speed can one see the countryside or is it like flying over it?
You can see the countryside very well.
Only the objects near you pass too fast to be seen clearly.
At 300 km/h (it will be 320 km/h for the new East-European line to open next month in France) you are only some 30/40 km/h higher than a jet taking off. So what you see looking through the windows of a jet when you take off gives you a good idea of what you see from a high speed train.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
You don't actually notice much of a difference between a high speed train and an inter-city train unless you zoom by a station or you happen to follow the path of a highway. Only then do you really notice how fast you're going...
There is also a combined train/plane ticket from 80 stations in Germany (but without check-in facilities locally), in a liaison between DB and many carriers. It even serves four carriers at AMS: Martinair, Garuda, Eva Airways and China Airlines:
ENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6894 times:
Quoting Joost (Reply 4): This is mostly because the Brussels-CDG train doesn't stop in between, whereas the train from Brussels to AMS will call at Antwerp, Breda and Rotterdam.
The Amsterdam-Paris train does not call at Breda: http://www.hslzuid.nl/hsl/vervoer/haltes/index.jsp
However, this will be a huge improvement. Because currently, the Thalys train needs 2:30 for The Hague-Brussels section and only 1:00 for Brussels-Paris Gare du Nord part. Does this compete with flying AMS-CDG? Anyway not in price I think.
BuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2933 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6866 times:
Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 18): Between Brussels and Paris, yes, but Paris is not CDG, as of April 1. This journey is now undertaken by the "standard" high speed trains running between Belgium and France.
Ah I see... So it's just the CDG part taken out. Thanks for clearing that up.
Glareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1309 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6860 times:
Quoting ENU (Reply 19): Because currently, the Thalys train needs 2:30 for The Hague-Brussels section and only 1:00 for Brussels-Paris Gare du Nord part. Does this compete with flying AMS-CDG? Anyway not in price I think.
Since I am living in the south part of the Netherlands I tried the Thalys to Paris on some occasions. My first experience was from Rotterdam and as you mentioned it took hours to only get to Brussels. Then the next occasion I drove to Gare du Midi in Brussels because I like the short one hour drive to Paris. But the price is too high. IIRC the Brussels Paris v.v. was around € 100 plus parking at Gare du Midi (which is hard to reach and expensive while it is in the centre of the city). Another advantage could be frequency but I guess even this is not working. On one of these trips I was late coming back out of Paris and I took one train later than scheduled. This train was almost empty. But when my ticket was checked by an unfriendly railroad employee with a heavy french accent I had to pay a fine which was about the same price as the ticket!!
Next time I'm going to check if I can find flights from EIN or RTM or ANR to Paris. I don't know if these flights already exist but if they don't it would be a good idea to start these flights. LLC'c you are invited!
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
BuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2933 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6793 times:
Quoting Bongo (Reply 22): Which track they can use? same one as Eurostar? If not...which one? I don´t think AF-KLM have enough money to build such a tunnel and railroad...am I wrong? How does it work?
They can, technically it's no problem, they just need to obtain licenses from the relevant regulators and train paths ("slots") from the respective infrastructure managers. Not a big deal except that capacity in London and Paris might be hard to get.