Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Airbus Meets Pressure To Deliver On A350  
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8586 times:

From today's WSJ:

Quote:
Customers have been clamoring for more information. Since presenting an overview of the jetliner in July, Airbus has shown customers a variety of plans, but it has yet to commit to a firm configuration, customers say.

According to people familiar with the campaign, US Airways has been in talks with both Airbus and Boeing but is leaning toward sticking with Airbus. Airbus has offered favorable terms on pricing as well as agreeing to renegotiate terms on A320s the airline ordered, these people say. Airline officials remain concerned about whether Airbus will deliver the A350 by 2013 as promised.

US Airways has asked Airbus officials to come back with a proposal that would include financial penalties if it fails to deliver. John Leahy, Airbus's chief operating officer for customers, said in an interview that "US Airways would of course have penalty payments" if the plane is late or fails to perform as advertised.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1178...20100095343.html?mod=moj_companies

The article goes on to say that Airbus aims to freeze the plane's overall shape and size in October 2008 before beginning detailed design drawings.

ILFC needs to see the final definition before determining whether it appeals to the largest number of airlines.

Some customers have been pushing Airbus to offer 10-abreast seating in economy but Airbus is sticking with nine.

Other customers have said they are staying on the sidelines while Airbus tries to reach a deal with GE for engines for the new A350.

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8472 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
The article goes on to say that Airbus aims to freeze the plane's overall shape and size in October 2008 before beginning detailed design drawings.

did you say December 2008? That's a year and a half from now.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30906 posts, RR: 87
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8380 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I would hope they meant October 2007, otherwise I see very strong 777 and 787 sales this year and next...

User currently offlineCygnusChicago From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8330 times:

What's interesting is that in the picture, which claims to be sourced from Airbus, they show the A350 as an 8-abreast. Guessing they incorrectly used an old graphic.
Big version: Width: 233 Height: 427 File size: 23kb


Other interesting point, is

Quote:
The plane's designers have been accompanying Airbus marketing officials on sales calls. Gordon McConnell, the chief engineer of the A350, said he has been explaining to potential buyers that Airbus is selecting suppliers and production partners and has more than 750 engineers and specialists working on the project.

Hopefully this means that there is immediate alignment between Leahy and the engineering corps on the planes specifications, so airlines won't be getting misinformation due to communication breakdowns.



If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8225 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
I would hope they meant October 2007, otherwise I see very strong 777 and 787 sales this year and next...

The M8 "final design freeze" milestone has been October 2008 since the -XWB was first shown, back in July last year, IIRC............
That's still 5 years from EIS BTW  Wink

Seriously, though, the things that matter get frozen progressively between now and then.
M8 requires all of the major supplier contracts to be in place, and the systems defined IIRC.

Things like "specification" freeze happen back-end of this year IIRC.

Regards


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8147 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 1):
did you say December 2008? That's a year and a half from now.



Quote:
Airbus aims to freeze the plane's overall shape and size in October 2008 before beginning detailed design drawings, Mr. McConnell said. Airbus is working to "take risk out of the program," he said.

The WSJ is subscription only, there's a summary of the article here:

http://www.euro2day.gr/articlesfna/34287280/


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5504 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8106 times:

I had been wondering about the "US Airways April 30th" big order,which was going 350, then 787, then silent. The fact that we never heard a murmur (or at least I didn't) pretty much told me that an A350/US order might very well be announced at the airshow next month. In any event, it certainly had not been a done deal.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7557 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 6):
In any event, it certainly had not been a done deal.

Nothing's a done deal yet, either way as "leaning toward sticking with Airbus" is quite ambiguous.

I don't see how any buyer can be ordering the A350 now since Airbus has yet to commit to a firm configuration. Is Airbus giving information to QR that they are not giving to ILFC?


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12499 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7512 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 7):
I don't see how any buyer can be ordering the A350 now since Airbus has yet to commit to a firm configuration.

Boeing didn't finalise the 787's configuration until September 2005. However, that didn't stop ANA ordering it nearly 18 months before that. How is that different?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7416 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 8):
How is that different?

It depends on whether or not ANA was influencing the specs or simply taking what Boeing was giving. I suspect the former for the 787. The question is which scenario fits the 350 buyers.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30906 posts, RR: 87
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7074 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 4):
The M8 "final design freeze" milestone has been October 2008 since the -XWB was first shown, back in July last year, IIRC...the things that matter get frozen progressively between now and then. M8 requires all of the major supplier contracts to be in place, and the systems defined IIRC.

Got it. So no big deal, then, and it gives Airbus time to keep tweaking.


User currently offline707lvr From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 583 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6601 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Thread starter):
Airbus has offered favorable terms on pricing as well as agreeing to renegotiate terms on A320s the airline ordered

Anything can happen between now and 2014 [whenever.] In the meantime, renegotiating terms on existing 320 orders sounds fantastic. Pretty much unbeatable in fact in any business. Half the U.S. carriers might not even be around in 7 more years, who knows? I imagine more than a few other airlines would be interested in this action.


User currently offlineN844AA From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6303 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 8):
Boeing didn't finalise the 787's configuration until September 2005. However, that didn't stop ANA ordering it nearly 18 months before that. How is that different?

If I recall correctly, that was the stage at which the plane's final design was frozen. I'm no engineer, but in plain English that reads significantly differently from "freez[ing] the plane's overall shape and size ... before beginning detailed design drawings."



New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12499 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5631 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting N844AA (Reply 12):
"freez[ing] the plane's overall shape and size ... before beginning detailed design drawings."

As per Astuteman's reply:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 4):
Seriously, though, the things that matter get frozen progressively between now and then.
M8 requires all of the major supplier contracts to be in place, and the systems defined IIRC.

What I'm saying is, I don't see how airlines considering and committing to the A350 now, know much less than ANA did when it placed its order for 787s.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10008 posts, RR: 96
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5534 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting N844AA (Reply 12):
If I recall correctly, that was the stage at which the plane's final design was frozen. I'm no engineer, but in plain English that reads significantly differently from "freez[ing] the plane's overall shape and size ... before beginning detailed design drawings."

As per my previous response, I understand the plane's overall shape and size (and specs) will be frozen this September/October (IIRC - corrections welcomed  Wink ), leaving another year to progress to "final" design freeze, by which time EVERYTHING is frozen.

Regards


User currently offlineTootallsd From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3810 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Given the competitive disadvantage vis-a-vis the 787, the long run up to a design for the A350 seems like a nightmare for their sales force. It may be according to plan, but the plan is not working in Airbus' favor.

User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9628 posts, RR: 68
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3738 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 8):
Boeing didn't finalise the 787's configuration until September 2005

Amazing! So Boeing was able to do in 2.5 years (finalize design to EIS) what will take Airbus 5 years with the A350XWB, yet you find reason to brag.

Bravo!


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3597 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 16):
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 8):
Boeing didn't finalise the 787's configuration until September 2005

Amazing! So Boeing was able to do in 2.5 years (finalize design to EIS) what will take Airbus 5 years with the A350XWB, yet you find reason to brag.

I was under the impression that the A350XWB final design freeze is in 2008, wouldnt that make its design process 2 to 2.5 years? I do consider it to be a different aircraft to the old A350 (assuming thats where you arrive at a figure of 5 years), as the technical aspects of the two aircraft have little in commmon. Essentially, airbus started from scratch with the XWB, but is keeping the A380 cockpit instruments.

[Edited 2007-05-09 15:41:22]

User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9628 posts, RR: 68
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3483 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

2.5 years from design freeze to EIS for the 787, using published timelines (Sept2005 to Spring2008)

5 years from design freeze to EIS for the A350XWB, using published timelimes (Fall2008 to Fall2013)


User currently offlineLogos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 793 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3352 times:

You really have to wonder if Airbus would be revenue positive on such a deal to USAirways, and it's probably impossible for them to tell right now with so much yet to be determined about the A350. As much as I'd like to see a 787 in US colors, that could be a pretty tough deal for them to resist as they get NBs that give them fleet commonality sooner than they could get them from Boeing, plus givebacks on planes they've already ordered. If the A350 project really goes south by say, 2011 and US sees it coming maybe they could get an escape clause on the A350, order the 787 and still have their widebody by 2013.

It seems like a scenario like that would be tough for US to pass up. I don't know if it makes a lot of sense for Airbus to do business this way, but they're kind of desperate right now. It's also highly unlikely they'll be allowed to fail and they know it.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando



Too many types flown to list
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12499 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3292 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 16):
yet you find reason to brag.

Say what?!?!  Wow! Please show me where I'm "bragging".

BoomBoom asked how an airline can buy A350s now, and I pointed out that ANA bought their 787s 18 months before Boeing completed their design freeze, which is around where Airbus is now.

There's no bragging, no Airbus cheerleading and no Boeing bashing. Please explain yourself, because I can't see your point.  confused 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 14):
As per my previous response, I understand the plane's overall shape and size (and specs) will be frozen this September/October (IIRC - corrections welcomed ), leaving another year to progress to "final" design freeze, by which time EVERYTHING is frozen.

So what you're saying is that the envelope will be set in concrete this year and all else is TBD until 2008? That seems reasonable enough. "Design freeze" is sort of an abstract concept anyway. Large aircraft are very much an individually built and equipped thing.

I remember two MD11s that were ordered by JAT and when they were about 50 per cent complete Yugoslavia imploded into civil war. They were taken over by American Airlines who got a hell of a deal on them, and they had to be modified quite a bit for customer configuration.

Come to think of it JAT partially paid for some of their MD80s with canned hams and there was a small office that was tasked with selling or giving away the hams any way they could. I ate a couple of them myself.

However there is a long time between final design freeze and entry into service.

the $64,000 question is can Airbus afford to spot the competition that kind of temporal advantage, given that the competition shows no signs of doing a Rip Van Winkle in the product development department.

The other $64,000 question is what is going to replace the B737 and A320, and who is going to build it?


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3175 times:

I thought that Airbus had decided on the 350XWB design that we've all been talking about since July. This seemed like monster of a plane(s). What is the problem with freezing this design?? And get rolling with it now? If only foresight was always 20/20, perhaps Airbus could have done away with the VLA market for now, and pursued the 350XWB or some plane along those lines earlier. Well since they aren't freezing any designs as of right now, perhaps they can, design a 350 model to compete with the 787-8 too. This would effectively kill the A330, but Boeing will be cannibalizing their own 772ER with the 787-10, and the 777 is a n even newer design than the 330/340. Then Airbus would really have a line that covered the 787 up to the 77W.


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9628 posts, RR: 68
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3086 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Steve - my comment was poorly worded, my apologies! I was referring to the endless debates of which frame is better than the other, not as an attack on you  Smile

If it is taking Airbus 5 years to do what Boeing is doing in 2,5, I hope it is better!


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12499 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3002 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 23):
Steve - my comment was poorly worded, my apologies!

Royal, no problem, apology accepted.

Now, get back to screening or taking shots of those new Boeings!  wink 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
25 Stitch : I imagine Airbus has a decent idea of what an A35XWB is going to cost them - at least enough to set list prices high enough that even with standard a
26 BoomBoom : I asked about Airbus committing to a "firm configuration" not a "design freeze". The article states that customers are clamoring for more information
27 JayinKitsap : I believe there is like 10 milestones in the Airbus program. The M8 design freeze is where the interface and performance of all parts are defined, so
28 Post contains images Astuteman : FWIW, Clickhappy, I suspect the advantage for Boeing lies in how much further down the industrialisation path they were on the 787 at design freeze,
29 Post contains images EA772LR : "the advantage for Boeing lies in how much further down the industrialisation path they were on the 787 at design freeze," Good Point. It seems at des
30 Post contains images EI321 : On a side note, the A350 trnsport methode will likely be identical to those of the A300/310 & A330/340 as the A350 fuselage diameter (5.91m) will eas
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Airbus Will Not Be Rushed On A350 Decision posted Thu Apr 20 2006 15:41:51 by Leelaw
Can Airbus Afford Not To Redesign The A350? posted Wed Apr 5 2006 22:46:37 by BoomBoom
WSJ: Airbus Under Pressure To Update 340 posted Mon Jan 16 2006 11:31:16 by Joni
Airbus Rejected By Japanese Manufacturers On A350 posted Sat Oct 29 2005 13:48:32 by JetMaster
Boeing And Airbus Have Agreed To Collaborate On... posted Fri May 7 2004 20:27:03 by Ulfinator
Airbus Refuses To Rule Out State Loans On A350 posted Mon Dec 4 2006 22:07:42 by Wingnut767
Airbus Lobbies GE To Offer GEnx For A350 XWB posted Fri Apr 20 2007 12:12:09 by Keesje
Airbus Says UK May Not Get Some Work On A350 posted Wed Jan 17 2007 21:13:47 by BoomBoom
Airbus Prepares To Deliver 3,000th A320 Family A/C posted Wed Dec 13 2006 12:58:56 by Leelaw
Airbus Wants Russians To Build More Of A350 posted Sat Dec 9 2006 18:27:07 by BoomBoom