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EK Wants Lighter 77W; Denies 160 330/350 Order  
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 19038 times:

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8853

Sort of a comprehensive report on Emirates before the Chairman flies to Seattle on the weekend of 12MAY07.


Highlights

► On the shopping list - more 777s, A350-900/-1000, 787, 747-8I
► Airline focused on fuel efficiency even if it means slight capacity drop
► Operation of Jebel Ali Airport could impact order. All 6 runway to be operational by 2014, but any delay will force the airline goes bigger aircraft
► Still eyeing 787-10X and 747-8I. Talks with Boeing will be on definition.
► The "champion" of its fleet, 777-300ER, according to Emirates' wish, to go lighter to encounter A350-1000 if Airbus lived up to the promise
► Not interested in 777-400ER, only even more better fuel burn for lighter 777-300ER
► Enthusiasm for 787 still exist, but will see any progress on 787-10X performance
► order for 787-9 still not ruled out, but depends on when Jebel Ali opens
► 747-8I range issue remains on the DXB - LAX, which the airline still sees a niche
Denies the impending order of 100 A350 and 60 A330, No decisions made
► Unconvinced about Airbus's intention to stick with composite panels on an aluminum frame for the A350.
► A380 add-on order not part of compensation package

190 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUAEflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 1119 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 18984 times:

So now they focus on fuel consuming, but what aircraft they are implying to??
Both aircrafts A350 & B787 are very fuel efficient


User currently offlinePhishphan70 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 18960 times:

how many 77W's does EK have? would be interesting to see Boeing jump on this and try to put the 77W on a diet, but with sales like they have been, i see the aircraft staying the way it is, atleast until the 787 line is fully churning. unlike EK however, i would Love to see a 774ER!

User currently offlineVHVXB From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 5525 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 18905 times:

Quoting Phishphan70 (Reply 2):
how many 77W's does EK have?

36 in the fleet at the moment


User currently offlineSkyGazer From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18849 times:

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 3):
Quoting Phishphan70 (Reply 2):
how many 77W's does EK have?

36 in the fleet at the moment

Make that 25  Wink



Types flown: B738, B772ER, B773, B77W, B744, A310, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A388
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18802 times:

Interesting comments from Mr. Clark.

He also reiterated that the four A380s ordered last week were not part of the compensation package for delayed deliveries (ATWOnline, May 8). "This is a new order for aircraft we need and we were able to take some delivery slots that opened up," he said. EK is confident that Airbus has sorted out its A380 problems and he said that once it is in service, airlines will clamor to get onboard: "The seat-mile costs are stellar."



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User currently offlineVHVXB From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 5525 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18803 times:

Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 4):
Make that 25

Sorry my mistake. I included the non ER as well. Thanks for correction


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 984 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18644 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
The "champion" of its fleet, 777-300ER, according to Emirates' wish, to go lighter to encounter A350-1000 if Airbus lived up to the promise

I find this an interesting comment. In one sense, Boeing has the distinct advantage (in 2007) that the A350-1000 is likely a decade away and the 773ER has almost no competition until that point. Emirates may want "more" (when do they not?) performance, but what other choice do they have when it comes to fuel efficiency? Are they not going to buy more 773ER if Boeing doesn't knock-off another 2-3% of SFC? Doubtful. Would slightly reducing fuel burn win orders that would otherwise go to the A346? Again, probably not as the 773ER has already demonstrated superior SFC.

At this point, Boeing doesn't have an incentive to offer anything more than the exotic trim materials they pitched QF when they were evaluating non-stop SYD-LHR with the 772LR.


User currently offline2wingtips From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18644 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
► order for 787-9 still not ruled out, but depends on when Jebel Ali opens

Mmmm, that may surprise a few, thinking the main models for consideration were 787-10/A350-1000. Looks like they may consider using the smaller -9 if Jebel Ali opens on time and runway development goes to plan.
Can Boeing get -9s to EK a bit earlier than anticipated.
Clearly, the mega 330/350 order is not as certain as many of the Airbus diehards will have us believe.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 984 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18525 times:

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 8):
Can Boeing get -9s to EK a bit earlier than anticipated.

Assuming that no major 787 orders are canceled and that Boeing doesn't ramp-up production rates faster than what is currently planned, EK could start getting 787-9 slots by 2013.


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3417 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18483 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
At this point, Boeing doesn't have an incentive to offer anything more than the exotic trim materials they pitched QF when they were evaluating non-stop SYD-LHR with the 772LR.

I would imagine that Boeing makes a fairly decent sum on all the upgrade kits they make available so that owners of older planes can get the latest and greatest fuel burn reducing developments on their 777.

So if they arrive at upgrades that are easy enough and cheap enough to retrofit the next time the 777 is in for a new interior and/or D check. well its money in the bank.

Most importantly IF GE does an engine for the A350XWB-1000, I would almost put money on that engine being the little brother of the engine going on the 777"NG". Thus leaving Boeing plenty of time to ALSO do all the nifty stuff they want to for the KC767 and 767LRF, AND start work on a 787NG... w/o bothering to spend money on Y3 till 2016 or later.

If GE bails on the GE90 replacement engine, then I can only see a quick and dirty "NG" program for the 777 that only uses whats on the shelf or easy to CAD up and throw on.


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18401 times:

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 8):
Clearly, the mega 330/350 order is not as certain as many of the Airbus diehards will have us believe.

At present, the A330/A350 mega order is one well defined option open to EK, which they have clearly accepted as a possible way forward for them.

However, they still want to hear what Boeing can do for them, so that's why EK currently is maintaining the line they haven't 'decided' yet and why they are giving Boeing a sort of last chance next week when Mr. Clark goes to Seatlle to hear Boeing's answer to their demands. Clearly EK does NOT want to hear Boeing offer them anything from their present catalogue, but expect the manufacturer to magically pull out some sort of 777NG as well as early delivery slots on both the 787-10 (which isn't even launched yet) and 787-9 all at once...

Given the unlikeliness of all that together, my view is Tim Clark will go back to Dubai to weigh off both propositions and will sign for extra planes from Airbus at Farnborough....


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18211 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 11):
Clearly EK does NOT want to hear Boeing offer them anything from their present catalogue,

..would you care to explain what these mean?

"Clark will be working with Boeing to define where the 787-10X and 747-8I sit on range/payload while his wish list contains a lighter 777-300ER"

"He did not rule out a buy of the smaller 787-9"

""Sure, if we go the A350 route we will need some interim lift, and the A330 would fit that bill, but no decisions have been made,""

......you seem quite certain Slz396 that they will go Airbus, which goes smack dab against what EK management is saying....

I say its still a toss-up....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineN1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 560 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18200 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
Assuming that no major 787 orders are canceled and that Boeing doesn't ramp-up production rates faster than what is currently planned, EK could start getting 787-9 slots by 2013.

Air et Cosmos ran a story saying Emirates is putting the pressure on Boeing to open a second line and to launch and accelerate the 787-10 development schedule. As they know they can't push AB on the A350 schedule, they are putting pressure on B.

- n1786b


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12635 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18200 times:
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Quoting Slz396 (Reply 11):
and will sign for extra planes from Airbus at Farnborough....

That's a long time for us to wait! Paris, on the other hand, would be much more exciting.  wink 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1923 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 18116 times:

Once again more public negotiating throughout the media from mister Clark. I find it fascinating to see, but every time he really doesn't say anything at all, leaving everyone spinning his words one way or the other.

Really, Mr. Clark, put a  footinmouth  and just do your business in quiet. He is loosing credibility buy saying a lot, but not acting. Ah well, maybe it's just me.

Cheers!  wave 



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 18078 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 14):
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 11):
and will sign for extra planes from Airbus at Farnborough....

That's a long time for us to wait! Paris, on the other hand, would be much more exciting.

A collective noun is needed to prevent this type of (totally understandable) error, how about Parnborough? It is better than Farnis I think, although Faris might be possible?  Confused

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 10):
Most importantly IF GE does an engine for the A350XWB-1000, I would almost put money on that engine being the little brother of the engine going on the 777"NG". Thus leaving Boeing plenty of time to ALSO do all the nifty stuff they want to for the KC767 and 767LRF, AND start work on a 787NG... w/o bothering to spend money on Y3 till 2016 or later.

That might depend on the thrust needed for a 777NG. If it is = or > than the 115s, it might be difficult to make it cover the range down to the XWB-1000, if I remember La's comments correctly.


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3417 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 18016 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 16):
That might depend on the thrust needed for a 777NG. If it is = or > than the 115s, it might be difficult to make it cover the range down to the XWB-1000, if I remember La's comments correctly.

I'm assuming that it would be a 90K/115K thrust "range" like the current GE90 if they did it. I can't possibly imagine a MTOW weight growth above the current 777LR family as being needed. Weight reductions and efficiency gains could knock out huge gains in range and payload depending on how far they go. Increase MZFW and MLW would be nice to see as it would help the 777F and shorter ranged missions with the 773ER pack on the payload.


User currently offlineAutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1596 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17643 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 5):
EK is confident that Airbus has sorted out its A380 problems and he said that once it is in service, airlines will clamor to get onboard: "The seat-mile costs are stellar."

Good news, but could this be a hint that the 748 will not be able to match the A380 efficiency or that the A380 is behaving better then promised? scratchchin 

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 15):
Once again more public negotiating throughout the media from mister Clark. I find it fascinating to see, but every time he really doesn't say anything at all, leaving everyone spinning his words one way or the other.

Couldnt agree more, really tiresome. Wasnt it Routers which claimerd EK would order the A350?



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17614 times:

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 15):
Really, Mr. Clark, put a and just do your business in quiet. He is loosing credibility buy saying a lot, but not acting. Ah well, maybe it's just me.

I don't really get the point. He is not "obliged" to act. Its his game and with his frequent appearances manages to give regular publicity to the company.

The fact that airliners.net fans (including me) await an announcement from EK does not make the issue any more urgent for them.



CY@Uk
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4112 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17231 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Airline focused on fuel efficiency even if it means slight capacity drop

This almost sounds like EK has dropped their "make the 747-8 bigger" push and might be considering it?

Anyway, I'm sick of EK putzing in to Airbus and Boeing and demanding that they get the exact airplane that is perfect for them. Everytime either manufacturer does something to improve the product, EK just wants a little more. I'm sure Boeing can offer a very attractive 777/787 package to EK, but if they want a little more efficiency or range, Boeing should seriously just walk away. This is getting freakin ridiculous...


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31122 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17133 times:
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Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 18):
Good news, but could this be a hint that the 748 will not be able to match the A380 efficiency or that the A380 is behaving better then promised?

Well one can safely assume EK will be going for high-density seating on at least part of the fleet, so that's going to help, but even then, one would expect the A388 to perform very well in this category.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 20):
This almost sounds like EK has dropped their "make the 747-8 bigger" push and might be considering it?

EK actually wants a smaller (well, shorter) 747-8I with better range. However, since EK prefers higher seating densities, I imagine that Clark probably prefers the current 747-8I's length, he just wants to be able to get 8300+nm out of her when actually carrying closer to 467 passengers then 400.

As to the 777-300ER, I am sure Boeing continues to try and make it even better for many reasons, including to keep EK buying them by the flock.  Smile

[Edited 2007-05-10 14:19:13]

User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12635 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17106 times:
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Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 20):
Boeing should seriously just walk away

From an order that might run to 160 widebody planes? Are you serious?  Wow!



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8487 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17071 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
..would you care to explain what these mean?

"Clark will be working with Boeing to define where the 787-10X and 747-8I sit on range/payload while his wish list contains a lighter 777-300ER"

Translation: 747-8I can't do DXB-LAX and 787-10 doesn't exist. Without a 787-10 we can't get as good a deal on A350-1000.

Quote:
"He did not rule out a buy of the smaller 787-9"

Translation: We want a better deal from Airbus

Quote:
""Sure, if we go the A350 route we will need some interim lift, and the A330 would fit that bill, but no decisions have been made,""

Translation: We need Boeing to do something so we can get a better deal from Airbus.

I think Mr. Clark understands as well as any one that in order to get the best possible deal there must be competing offers. Without a 787-10 the A350-1000 has no competition. And without delivery slots for the 787-9, he can't get a good deal on his interim solution, the A330. So he's going to Seattle to see if Boeing will do something that will make Airbus give him a better deal on existing plan to get A350/330's.


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4112 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17005 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 22):
From an order that might run to 160 widebody planes? Are you serious?

If it was just a regular order, of course not! But EK seems to think they can just ask for whatever they want and the manufacturers will happily oblige. I'm sure Boeing continues to improve their products, like any good company would. I just don't think they will or should go out of their way just to please ONE airline.


25 Post contains images Stitch : Yet making their products better for one airline will probably make them better for all airlines. It is possible EK is trying to use Boeing to knock
26 Jfk777 : Whatever EK's grand plans are the A380, 773ER, 787 or A350 will make up the fleet in 5 years. Expansion will take place in the USA and to a few more d
27 Baroque : Probably, but it might be that there is a temptation to widen the 777 as they lighten it to acquire another run of seats - seems to be all the go the
28 Post contains images Qantas744ER : Actually the 77W after a certain ln already had improvements of a couple of thousand Lbs and the first aircraft to recieve these improvements was a AF
29 2wingtips : and Mr Clark is confident the 350-1000 will enter service in 8 years time(yep 2015) ? I imagine the 787-10 is as close to reality(or more likely clos
30 DeltaDC9 : Maybe neither, maybe it is simply performing as advertised, which does match the description of stellar. A second line is not the issue, Boeings 'lin
31 DIA : How many landings and takeoffs per day does this airport expect? DIA has six operational runways ,and still has plenty of room to add on many frequen
32 Post contains images JAAlbert : What is the 777-400? I've not heard of this before. Is this actually being proposed by Boeing? What are its proposed specs? Is there any rumors that t
33 NASCARAirforce : Have I been sleeping, but what is a 777-400ER? I didn't think you can make it any longer than it is - man the tail scrapes
34 Slz396 : Thanks for translating the somewhat fluffy words of Mr Clark into easy to understand plain language. I think you are hitting the nail on the head, BT
35 Kaitak744 : WHAT??? They are actually building that? That is nothing but crazy. They basically said that they will not be interested in any potential larger vers
36 Stitch : Airbus is indeed offering EK more suitable planes, the problem is the time-frame they are offering them for is upwards of a decade out, and EK is gro
37 DeltaDC9 : They have considered the possiblity since before the 773 came out and once the 747 was in question, but there is no program AKAIK. It would require m
38 Post contains images Scbriml : Why wouldn't they build it? Why is it crazy? DXB really struggles to cope at peak times and with EK's massive fleet expansion, it won't last much lon
39 Post contains images Oykie : How would they now if that airport will be delayed prior to it's opening. They have to order planes some years before 2014, and then they still risk
40 Post contains images Justloveplanes : This is where protracted negotations can backfire. Clark could have had all the 787's he needed years earlier than he will get what he wants, but he
41 Jacobin777 : I don't think EK is going to nor wants to play "IB" and just go to Boeing to drive down the price and pick Airbus in the end (or do the converse eith
42 Lumberton : The 787 isn't exactly begging for orders at this point. It is not inconceivable that Clark may be presented with a very gentle ultimatum that he may
43 AA1818 : I see a huge possibility for the 748i in EK's fleet. After all they have purchased the freighter. Also, Boeing has kept the proposed specs of the pro
44 FriendlySkies : Sure...you might want different options available, but I don't ask Toyota to go back and redesign the car because I want it to be 1 mi/gal more effic
45 Justloveplanes : This is a more direct expression of my previous point. Mr. Clark can expect very little help from Boeing in driving down A's price. They can sell eve
46 EI321 : Sorry if its been mentioned already, but what exactly will Boeing be doing on the 777 to lighten it enough to compete with the A350? Airbus proposed t
47 JoeCanuck : As far as I remember, the 8 across limitation was one of the things that killed the original 350. It wasn't just the old tech composition. The 777 may
48 Stitch : In what way? (Genuine interest, not trying to be snide). I imagine trying new lighter internal structures and fittings, but they're going to be limit
49 Morvious : Why can't EK just buy planes that are availible or will be in a few years time. They always want something different. They really think they are THAT
50 Post contains images Stitch : They're taking a good chunk of 773ERs and A388s...
51 Dank : I don't think that this is the case. I am just as convinced now that EK isn't impressed with the original Boeing specs for the 787-10 and Boeing hasn
52 RJ111 : I personally thought the 4 additional A380s outlined their intentions here. Though like you say the as they already have the frieghter in the fleet a
53 EI321 : Its impossible to draw anything from it I guess.
54 Kaneporta1 : I tend to think along the same lines. Also, I really don't see EK ordering the 787-9 if they also order the A350, as the 787-9 is closer to the size
55 Albird87 : I beleive that the 777-400ER is one of these mysterious myth creatures that you hear about!! lol Boeing wont make a 777-400ER as the 773 is already c
56 Yyz717 : Seems that EK is not interested in markets smaller than the 332. Surely, a fleet of 321/738 could be used to the (many?) smaller markets from DXB not
57 Astuteman : There are a number of people on here, me included, who suspect that Clark's view may well be borne out...... IMO they will discover an alarming large
58 Post contains images Jacobin777 : you are comparing apples to oranges......the vehicle market is much different than the aviation market...where routes, destinations, locations, etc.
59 Post contains images Stitch : I don't think the cost is the major hold-up on the 787-10, but the time-frame. Boeing is limited in how far they can push the 787-10 MTOW without upg
60 BoomBoom : He seems to be saying the A350XWB, as currently proposed, is unsuitable.
61 Socaljoeyb : Will the current Dubai airport be closed when this new airport opens?
62 Post contains images Dank : I don't read it that way. I read it as he doesn't believe that it will end up with composite panels. That doesn't mean that either way the plane is u
63 BoomBoom : Since Boeing is going the all-composite route, they're already doing better, sooner. If Airbus does decide to go the all-composite route, the way Mr
64 F4N : Astuteman: An excellent observation. As much as the various cheerleaders do not want to read such things, they can't or won't recognize the fact that
65 Dank : Nope, they're not. If they were, EK would have jumped on the -10. WIth a composite panel fueslage the 350 can do better than the 787-10 that Boeing h
66 Bringiton : And which model are we talking of here ? Are you talking of the A350-900 doing better then the 787-10 or the A350-1000 doing better ? The -10 will pr
67 Dank : It doesn't matter which version of the 350 you want to compare it to. The 787-10 in either form that Boeing has proposed, does not have the range tha
68 Post contains links BoomBoom : If true, then why is the 787 still on the shopping list? The fact is that neither the 787-10 or the A350 is defined at this time. http://online.wsj.c
69 Post contains images Astuteman : To me, a composite fuselage made from "shells" is as near as dammit as "all-composite" as a composite fuselage made from "barrels". The composite con
70 BoomBoom : So why do you feel that Why would Airbus ever incur the additional time and expense of going with barrels if it gets them very little gain?
71 DeltaDC9 : Too bad, cause us Tahoe drivers did just that and we got FIVE more miles to the gallon out of them with the new model! I cant agree, the composite ba
72 Dank : Because they want planes sooner. Reading the comments from above. They would be interested in a -10, only if Boeing can give them better range. My gu
73 Post contains images Astuteman : Personally, because........ And its my preferred solution. Although I suspect the advantages (over all-composite shells) are in most cases of an incr
74 AVinutso : Are we all tired of Mr. Clark and his statements? Yes, I believe so. On the other hand, this point in history has to be one of the most difficult time
75 BoomBoom : It not clear at all:
76 JayinKitsap : I would think that Boeing is trying to keep the eye on the ball and have an on-time successful launch of the 788. If engineers are becoming available
77 2wingtips : I've been an advocate of EK splitting their 787/350 requirement for a while now, despite EK denying this as a possibility. I think EK is acutely aware
78 Aminobwana : Have somebody thought that Mr. Clark (or possibly some of Emirates owners) is beginning to see that his pharaonic expansion plans are conflicting wit
79 Stitch : If Clark truly values range above all else, then the 787-9 might be just what the doctor ordered. If he uses the 773ER seats he can maximize the seati
80 XT6Wagon : What I seem to be missing is why people are discounting the 787-9, yet EK operates planes very much the same size as it currently. Certainly seems to
81 Stitch : Mainly because Clark is. He seems to prefer not to have something as "small" as the A332 and A343 in his fleet going forward. I get the impression he
82 XT6Wagon : If one assumes that he truly DOESN'T want something smaller than a 787-10/A350-9, then I guess the question is, why are people bitching about him not
83 Post contains images Dank : I see the 789 as serving a similar role as the potential 330 order, they can get some extra capacity much sooner that way. The clincher for them woul
84 AirFrnt : That's definitely one school of thought, but the other is that Boeing will have a generational advantage by launching the 787 realistically 7 years b
85 Ken777 : Some Ramblings . . . Short or Long 748i for EK? Boeing, in my opinion, isn't going to build a short 748i. in order fot he Long i to be attractive EK w
86 BoomBoom : That's what he's going to Seattle to talk about. For now it doesn't, but that could change. What is so hard for you to understand about these two ite
87 Post contains images Astuteman : I didn't quite follow how this paragraph had any relevance to whether Boeing "lighten" the 777 or just sell it slightly cheaper, once demand starts t
88 JoeCanuck : Indeed...a rigid argument... There's no huge rush for -10 or y3 at the moment. Though I think the 787 will perform above and beyond, I like the idea o
89 Post contains links and images Scbriml : When you buy as many planes as EK has in the last few years, and is going to in the next few months, too damn right they can ask for whatever they wa
90 Lumberton : Mr. Clark does not have the last word. That belongs to the owners, the al Maktoum family, who also rule Dubai.
91 Post contains images Astuteman : Retrospective apologies, AirFrnt. Your comment didn't merit the response it received. In a nutshell, I suspect the difference in rigidity between the
92 JoeCanuck : I probably just missed it somewhere but is there any sort of comparison of the estimated efficiencies of the 787 and xwb?
93 EI321 : Airbus and Boeing have their own comparisons, maybe somebody can post links to powerpoints.
94 JoeCanuck : I don't personally see how a 5" difference in fuse diameter can make that much of a difference in any performance parameter when it comes to stretchin
95 Dank : Everything out of Boeing suggests that it won't. He's going to push them to do better. Will they? Hard to imagine that they will without the major in
96 Stitch : EK could arguably use the current 787-10 to replace the 772A and 773A fleet, provided they want to continue to operate a "medium-haul" family of airc
97 Post contains images Dank : I think that their fear is that to get the uplift they want, even at the shorter ranges, they need the extra range. So they need those guarantees tha
98 AirFrnt : That was my point, and I agree with this analysis. Not a problem at all. Boeing actually raised the point when they were initially doing the technolo
99 Aminobwana : Agreed, This is precisely my point. Independently of the verborrea both by Al Maktoum and TIM, I am not sure that the latter at this stage continues
100 EI321 : Why?
101 Jacobin777 : ...just watched an interview with Flanagan.....again, it seems to me he's not too keen on having planes from just one manufacturer...
102 BoomBoom : So,according to Clark, there are many people at Airbus who see the benefit of the Boeing approach. I wonder when this internal struggle will be decid
103 Stitch : It may already have been. Executive Management is going to make the decision, and may already have done so, despite the view of some (and how much is
104 JayinKitsap : It seems like EK doesn't use options or purchase rights. Doing a 20 + 30 options for both the 787 and the 350 would provide sufficient commonality and
105 Post contains images Lightsaber : I'm highly amused at how much attention every EK potential order gets on a.net. Since we realize that their order will be HUGE, I think A & B both do
106 Aminobwana : Dear Colleague: You ask; WHY ?? I think I explained it. I entertain the possibility that EK has second thoughts regarding of the number of A380 they
107 Post contains links and images Zeke : “We have repeatedly said we are committed to the A380 and, having now fully settled all past issues, this latest agreement should leave no one in a
108 SeJoWa : Anyting else would simply be rigiculous!
109 Stitch : That possibility is so remote to be statistically zero. EK is darn near committed to the A380 even more then Airbus is. EK could have had 744s years
110 DeltaDC9 : Could this simply be a matter of grabbing early production slots to offset the delays, with the possiblity of never taking the last 4, or more? They g
111 Stitch : I would think EK would not need to place a "phantom order" to do so, merely just working with Airbus to take over those slots opened by FX, 5X and VS
112 Post contains images Jacobin777 : EK like to carry a lot of cargo below also....I've been on numerous flights where the cabin was practically empty only to be delayed by "loading of c
113 DeltaDC9 : But that would not give the 380 program a real pat on the back, which it needs. My theory covers both angles. They should not be dead set on the last
114 Scbriml : But the PR states exactly that - EK reaffirmed their previous firm contracts for 43 and SIGNED another contract for 4 more. Other (highly respected)
115 Aminobwana : I am very sorry and beg to excuse about the wrong remark I made regarding the content of the AB Press release. Unfortunately,I didn't read the releas
116 Post contains images Dank : This is where the range issues that EK brings up get interpreted incompletely here. More range = more uplift over shorter distances in many instances
117 Stitch : Yeah I guess, but it comes across as cheesy, at least to me. I prefer to think better of both Airbus and EK.
118 Dank : Well, if EK thinks that they could use four more frames, and the price is quite nice right now due to Airbus' problems... I would assume that if they
119 Dank : Plus, I would have expected that Airbus has been willing to negotiate with airlines regarding compensation based on sliding into some of the vacated
120 DeltaDC9 : They said that this order for 4 has nothing to do with compensation. There must be an angle here somewhere.
121 XT6Wagon : Really? How many of the old narrow A350's are still on the books? How about the investigating slapping on the A380 nose? Airbus shows NO sign of actu
122 Post contains links and images Astuteman : Interestingly enough, there was a perfectly rational explanation of this, presented by people who are in a position to know, on this thread. Emirates
123 Dank : I didn't say it did. What I was suggesting as an alternative to ordering four more frames to grab production slots as you suggested may have been a p
124 Aminobwana : I would agree in principle. From todays point of view, they at least want to leave open the possibility to take them all and possibly later switch so
125 Aminobwana : [quote=Stitch,reply=117]Because maybe the market already assumed that EK was sticking with the 380 and a four frame order isn't exactly going to make
126 Stitch : Of all the things EK/Clark has carped about (and it's a great deal of things), dropping or reducing the A380 order has never been one of them. So if
127 Dank : While it is true that we don't know the details of any of these contracts. There are many ways that you can reserve prices on frames, etc. without ha
128 Post contains images Dank : Which doesn't mean that there weren't any doubts, but not enough to make the reaffirmation make a dent in the stock. cheers.
129 XT6Wagon : I seem to recall him saying that they were evaluating thier order when asked about cancelation, but yes it was only speculation that there was more t
130 JAL : Emirates' plan sounds very complicated but looks like for growth for them!
131 Scbriml : All of them. This is not unreasonable since none of the airlines that placed original orders has yet decided to cancel them (given they seem to be ge
132 Areopagus : Oh, well... I suppose you remember the put-downs that followed the progress reports of components coming together for the first A380. I haven't seen
133 XT6Wagon : Oh so its valid that Airbus sold them a plane they apparently had no intentions of building? Doesn't that simply prove in one easy step that Airbus i
134 Post contains images Scbriml : No intentions of building? Well, that's clearly what you want it to prove, and it seems nothing I can say will change your mind, so there seems littl
135 Aminobwana : We all agree that TIM speaks and speaks without much coherence, but as I think we also agree that he do so for a purpose. And as I had some days ago
136 Dank : I don't think that they never had intentions of building the narrower version of the 350. And herein lies the problem. What difference does it make w
137 Stitch : EK could have bought 744s years ago. That they both did not do that and canceled delivery of 20 A346s implies EK is willing to wait for the A388 beca
138 Zeke : I don't think he speaks incoherently at all, if anything he comes across as having a well thought out long term business plan with no allegiance to a
139 Aminobwana : Zeke 1) I have stated repeatedly that for the next 4-5 years EK will have a strong growth, as the damaging competition from other airlines will not s
140 Post contains links Zeke : You can state what you like, when the airline comes out and says the opposite, no one is listing to you. Around 2012, very few people will have the 7
141 XT6Wagon : Ah no, I don't think Airbus is a liar. I think its highly dysfunctional, with far too much power concentrated in marketing. Seemingly there is no che
142 Post contains images Astuteman : At the time they had every intention of building them. You should credit Boeing for forcing the change. We have discussed ad-nauseam the fact that, u
143 XT6Wagon : Yes, I know this and it was due to... switching to 9Y as a possible configuration from what I can tell. I might also mention that the 787-9 has had a
144 Post contains images Astuteman : And yet the 8Y specifications also changed..... I don't think anyone would deny that the iterations of the old A350 and the move from A350 to A350XWB
145 Bringiton : Thats a very reasonable way of looking at things .
146 Post contains images Zvezda : The opportunity for a 2011 EIS for the 787-10 closed last year. If the Boeing board were to approve the 787-10 for offer this month, it would be a st
147 Post contains images EI321 : I have yet to read all of the posts in this thread, but this comment derserves a wave of the BS flag ...... Where you got the presumption that airbus
148 Post contains images Astuteman : That drew a smile. Thanks. Anyone for "technotennis?" Many thanks. That was my hope. Regards
149 Baroque : Amazing content for a thread that should be discussion how to get some pounds or kilos off the 77W. The flight of fancy towards Carthage suggests som
150 Zvezda : It could perhaps mean that, but there are many other possible explanations, including not-invented-here syndrome, for example. I think Boeing have al
151 Post contains images Baroque : Yes, that should probably be the first rule of a.net, never underestimate the NIH factor.
152 Atmx2000 : Not sure that is correct. It's 4.5 years for approval to offer of the 7E7 to EIS of the 787-8. The end of 2011 is certainly within the realm of possi
153 Stitch : The original A350 offered a nine-abreast configuration once they decided to reconfigure the interior cabin walls. I believe Airbus was hoping the CAS
154 Zvezda : There are other factors at play. Slot availability, the need to learn from the 787-9 before finalizing the 787-10 design, availability of engines wit
155 Post contains images Dank : The lack of sales from BA, LH, EK, (even maybe UA), etc. may be reflections of the fact that a -10 is not available for sale. And the only reason tha
156 Atmx2000 : Huh? There was 9 abreast configuration for the A330/A340 labeled by Airbus as a charter configuration as opposed to the tourist class 8 abreast confi
157 BoomBoom : Will that delay the 2013 EIS? But it may gain them some 777 sales from BA, EK (and even maybe UA), etc.[Edited 2007-05-12 17:37:20]
158 Atmx2000 : While slot availability is an issue, production rates could be increased depending on demand well before the end of 2011. Engine availability is a qu
159 Post contains images Astuteman : I honestly wouldn't have the first idea, BoomBoom, but I bet I'd be right in saying it features pretty highly in the risk trade-offs being done (as p
160 Aminobwana : I am not able to see what "goodwill" has to do with the issue. Airbus nor Boeing are selling aircraft to the Forum members !! And I am not concerned
161 SunriseValley : I'm sort of rather late in on this one but my question would be how much of a weight reduction is EK looking for in the 77W ? If I read it correctly,
162 Gbfra : When I met Tim Clark a couple of weeks ago he said that he would like to order the even bigger A380-900 anytime! And he was not happy to hear from an
163 Aminobwana : I assume that if you read my Reply 160. where I state: And it would be really nice if somebody will objectively counter-argue what I am stating inste
164 Dank : They obviously feel differently. If they really felt this way, they would have reduced their 380 order and already ordered 350s/787s (or even 777s an
165 Post contains images Astuteman : Lets see... So Isn't that far away, is it? If you're trying to argue that the EK business plan is flawed, you'll no doubt find lots of support. We've
166 Gbfra : Well I think that Astuteman just answered some of your questions and I fully agree with him. Nevertheless I'll give it a try. 1) I don't understand t
167 Moo : While my personal opinion is that Emirates will surprise us all on the business plan front (I am expecting them to become one of the largest and most
168 Post contains images Stitch : EK expects their traffic to continue to increase strong well before, during, and well after 2012. Sure they wish they had their A388s now so they cou
169 Post contains images Dank : Thank you for your kind words . Seconding that. From the naive observer, sure it seems like a lot. 47 380s sounds crazy on the surface, but so does 1
170 AirSpare : Some OT LH speculation-The LH 748Is will go west on a BCF run and stay in the fleet sending Mercedes-Benz truck parts and the like to Brazil and the w
171 Post contains links Aminobwana : It is a pleasure to discuss with you, STITCH, even if we often disagree. Lets see if we can find coincidence points! My point is that after 2012, ther
172 Gbfra : Emirates has been operating Hamburg-New York since October 2006. That was even before Open Skies.
173 Stitch : Non-stop flights are driven by O&D demand between those two points. While the 737-700ER theoretically makes it possible to connect just about any two
174 Aminobwana : Nice example ! I have not the data available, but I assume that the EK flight is New York - Dubai with a stop-over in Hamburg {?] This is a completel
175 Gbfra : No, it isn't. They are just flying Hamburg-New York in order to pick up passengers from the North of Germany who don't want to chose LH. Because in t
176 David_itl : BA seems to be happy for them to pick up 900,000 passengers a year from their regional UK services (it's roughly 33% of the total throughput to DXB -
177 Aminobwana : [quote=Stitch,reply=173]Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 171): Dear STITCH As what we are discussing, being most important, nevertheless is straying away fro
178 Aminobwana : Tut mir leid, GBFRA Flight 205/206 of Emirates are DUBAI - New YORK with stop over at Hamburg, as I wrote in reply 174 See EMIRATES Website. As it is
179 Scbriml : Isn't BA currently 3 x daily (1 x 747, 1 x 777 & 1 x 767)? Although only a small player on the route, Royal Brunei also flys a 767 daily between LHR-
180 EI321 : Why wouldn't he say this? If no decision has been made, theres no point hinting to a manufacturer that you intend to purchase 160 aircraft from them
181 Scouseflyer : I would reckon with Paris looming, that those negotiations would be well advanced for such a large order! But we'll see.
182 DeltaDC9 : The current outlook is for this to be like most programs, the passenger model will come on line first with a freighter on down the line when there is
183 Jacobin777 : BA run the B767 only on Tuesday, Friday and Saturday during the fall/winter season...
184 Scbriml : OK, that explains my confusion - I've just finished a 9-month stint in Dubai and all my visits home would leave DXB on Friday, returning the followin
185 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I've flown on BA to DXB also, and I've noticed the same thing.... ...thanks for the tip , but I'll only fly on the B777's...
186 2wingtips : Unless EK see the Dubai airshow in November as a more appropriate time to announce. I suspect there will be a Le Bourget and a Dubai component.
187 Post contains images Scbriml : If EK really haven't yet decided between the A350 & 787, then the much anticipated order for 100 almost certainly won't be ready for Paris. However,
188 2wingtips : Yep, that sounds very feasible to me.
189 Aminobwana : Tim Clark was visiting Boeing last Saturday, as far I read. There is a non-typical silence sbout what happened (if any) there. Anyone have a cle ?? am
190 Post contains images Stitch : Well there are two EK 773ERs on the tarmac (one in full colors and one in bare Al) so maybe he just wanted to see them. Seriously, I expect that the
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