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An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons  
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3738 posts, RR: 11
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9895 times:



Flight Global article

There's been a lot of talk about the supposed copying of western technology by eastern countries lately...

I don't suppose GE has been working with ZKMB Progress on the 'exhaust chevron' technology, nor that they sold them the technology. I don't even know if that technology is patented.
Really, I don't know what to make of this pic...

Any thoughts?


Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9686 times:

Doesn't the An-124 regularly carry GE90 engines from the plant to Boeing? Maybe some folks complained about the An-124s noise, so GE gave them the technology for free...

But IIRC it was Volga-Dnepr who was contracted to carry the GE90s...

It seems my fantasy is at a catastrophic level today... Wink



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9570 times:

Curious. Isn't Russia a member, or soon to be, of the WTO? And don't the WTO members adhere to the laws on the protection of patents & intellectual property? Of course, that's assuming that this is GE proprietary technology. If so, we'll know soon enough when some sort of lawsuit hits!


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3498 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9554 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
Maybe some folks complained about the An-124s noise, so GE gave them the technology for free...

What! The An-124 is pretty quit, a 747 classic is louder.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9539 times:

Quoting Francoflier (Thread starter):
I don't suppose GE has been working with ZKMB Progress on the 'exhaust chevron' technology, nor that they sold them the technology. I don't even know if that technology is patented.
Really, I don't know what to make of this pic...

A guy I know was a tech rep for GE back in the day, and at that time Ariana had a single DC10 and a single spare CF6 at their base in Kabul. When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan the first thing they did was crate that sucker up and send it home for some 'research'.


User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9424 times:

Nice Photoshop job on that pic.  Big grin

There's nothing in the law which would prevent them from making that modification to their own equipment, as long as they don't sell the technology to others because it could be looked upon as a patent infringement.


User currently offlineKalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9317 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
Of course, that's assuming that this is GE proprietary technology.

As far as I understand, technology behind GEnx serrated trailing edge is described in US patent 6612106 filed by Boeing in 2001.
Even in that patent itself, there are quite a few references describing similar prior art (going back to 60s), and patent claims only some details (curvature of the trailing edge) as novel.


User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9246 times:

Rolls Royce experimented with Chevrons in 2001, on a Boeing 777-200ER.



Boeing press release

General Electric also tested chevrons on another 777 (a 77W of ANA) in 2005.



Boeing press release



7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineGEnxPower From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9083 times:

You cannot patent an idea. Anyone around the world is free to take the idea of "chevrons" and experiment with it. Unless, if they took all the dimensions and replicate them exactly, then that would be an infringement.

The trick of making this technology work efficiently is in the dimensions, chevron angles, curvatures and size w.r.t your engine thrust level and air flow. Matching flow and size is important, the rest is engineering trade offs. GE and Rolls have both done their own tests on this technology, and has learned great lessons. Those information are proprietary and companies won't share such results, and patent laws will protect us from copiers.


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9083 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
Curious. Isn't Russia a member, or soon to be, of the WTO? And don't the WTO members adhere to the laws on the protection of patents & intellectual property? Of course, that's assuming that this is GE proprietary technology. If so, we'll know soon enough when some sort of lawsuit hits!

Nope, the US has vetoed(or sabotaged) their entrance several times mostly for stupid reasons(mainly as retaliation method for their stance on Iran, Iraq, etc) the russian industry and the last time I think the Russians said "we don't need no stinkin' WTO".


User currently offlineOTOPS From Canada, joined May 2007, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8982 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
Curious. Isn't Russia a member, or soon to be, of the WTO? And don't the WTO members adhere to the laws on the protection of patents & intellectual property? Of course, that's assuming that this is GE proprietary technology. If so, we'll know soon enough when some sort of lawsuit hits!

Antonov is in the Ukraine



Airbus-A name that manages to make aviation sound uncool.
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3738 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7940 times:

Quoting OTOPS (Reply 10):
Antonov is in the Ukraine

That's right. So is Progress, the engine manufacturer.

Quoting GEnxPower (Reply 8):
You cannot patent an idea.

That's also right. I wonder whether they obtained appreciable results with that design on the D-18s. Are those engine that noisy in the first place? Do they comply with the current European and US noise regs?



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1605 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7425 times:

Quoting GEnxPower (Reply 8):
The trick of making this technology work efficiently is in the dimensions, chevron angles, curvatures and size w.r.t your engine thrust level and air flow. Matching flow and size is important, the rest is engineering trade offs. GE and Rolls have both done their own tests on this technology, and has learned great lessons. Those information are proprietary and companies won't share such results, and patent laws will protect us from copiers.

The laws only protect in countries willing to recognise them.



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7290 times:

Patents don´t run until the end of time either, so question is how long the patented it for?

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7199 times:

Quoting EGNR (Reply 7):
Rolls Royce experimented with Chevrons in 2001, on a Boeing 777-200ER.

As I remember it, Boeing were driving this test more than RR.

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 6):
As far as I understand, technology behind GEnx serrated trailing edge is described in US patent 6612106 filed by Boeing in 2001.

Indeed. The chevrons are a Boeing idea. Won/t they be applied to both the GEnx and Trent 1000 on the 787?


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7132 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 9):
and the last time I think the Russians said "we don't need no stinkin' WTO".

Thanks for giving me my laugh for the evening! Surely serrated tail pipes have been around for a long time. Some of the hush kits have interruptions round the rim of the tailpipes and these date back to ?the 70s.

Specific systems might have been subject to patent apps but it seems unlikely that the whole concept can be subject to new patents. Mixing of gases into smaller sub-streams has been an accepted way to reduce jet noise for a long time.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7102 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 9):
Nope, the US has vetoed(or sabotaged) their entrance several times mostly for stupid reasons(mainly as retaliation method for their stance on Iran, Iraq, etc) the russian industry and the last time I think the Russians said "we don't need no stinkin' WTO".

Seems we have company.
EU Casts Cloud Over Russian WTO Entry

Quote:
MOSCOW — The European Union is threatening to block Russia’s bid to join the World Trade Organization unless progress is made on resolving acrimonious disputes between Russia and some of its neighbors before a key summit near Samara next week.
While the EU still supports Russia’s accession to the WTO, it will not do so “at any price,” Peter Power, a spokesman for EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson, said Friday.

Of course, the reports are denied later in the article, but where there's smoke....

Back on topic, I'm getting two messages from the previous posts, it's patented, but if one were to duplicate the chevrons, it's not a patent infringement unless it's done exactly?

Quoting GEnxPower (Reply 8):
You cannot patent an idea. Anyone around the world is free to take the idea of "chevrons" and experiment with it. Unless, if they took all the dimensions and replicate them exactly, then that would be an infringement.

But isn't that the idea behind patents and copyrights--to protect ideas?

[Edited 2007-05-13 14:14:19]


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineGEnxPower From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6970 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 16):
But isn't that the idea behind patents and copyrights--to protect ideas?

This is true, but to patent something, it has to be more detailed and solution specific. I'm an engineer and not a lawyer and not all that familiar with the legalities.

However, the way I understand this is that you cannot patent this, for example, as "Acoustic reduction with chevron treatment on exhaust nozzle exit". There has to be more detailed specification on how the "problem" was solved using the idea.

RR cannot patent concepts like "3 spool gas turbine engines" and GE cannot patent "Variable Stator Vanes in the HPC". Those concepts are not protected. What is protected is the specific approach to applying those concepts in the product.

If general ideas can be patented, why wouldn't Apple (or whoever) patent "portable mp3 device". Or someone just patent "Touch screen Displays". There are various touch screen technology out there now, each with small differences and slightly varied approaches that are patented. The rest, I guess, is up to the lawyers to duke it out on what is infringement and what is "new".

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 12):

The laws only protect in countries willing to recognise them.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2051 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6779 times:

Quoting GEnxPower (Reply 17):
If general ideas can be patented, why wouldn't Apple (or whoever) patent "portable mp3 device". Or someone just patent "Touch screen Displays". There are various touch screen technology out there now, each with small differences and slightly varied approaches that are patented. The rest, I guess, is up to the lawyers to duke it out on what is infringement and what is "new".

If there were no prior works of similar technology, a vague patent would often hold up and block progress. There is a lot of that evident in the patents acquired in the information technology sector, especially in recent years.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7989 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6478 times:

I don't think either GE or Rolls-Royce will patent the idea of the engine chevrons because after all, the benefits of better mixing of hot and cold exhaust gases to reduce engine noise benefits everyone.

By the way, intermixing hot and cold air in the exhaust stream to reduce noise is not a new idea. Note this older Boeing 707:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Art Brett - Photovation Images



That unusual exhaust nozzle intermixes the hot exhaust from the engine and the cold air flowing around the engine nacelle to reduce engine noise whenever the plane is flying.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6153 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
Doesn't the An-124 regularly carry GE90 engines from the plant to Boeing?

The An-124 is used when an airline must ferry an engine replacement to a Ge-powered 777 that is stranded away from a maintenance facility. Other aircraft, like the 747F, can be used if the engine core and fan are disassembled for transport.

For standard engine delivery from the Ge plant to Boeing's final assembly line at PAE, an An-124 is not used.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5288 times:

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 3):
What! The An-124 is pretty quit, a 747 classic is louder.

Ok, good to know that.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 11):
Are those engine that noisy in the first place? Do they comply with the current European and US noise regs?

Yes. The engines used on civilian aircraft were fitted with STAGEIII hushkits, so they comply with the regulations.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 20):

The An-124 is used when an airline must ferry an engine replacement to a Ge-powered 777 that is stranded away from a maintenance facility. Other aircraft, like the 747F, can be used if the engine core and fan are disassembled for transport.

For standard engine delivery from the Ge plant to Boeing's final assembly line at PAE, an An-124 is not used.

Ok, thanks.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4977 times:

The An-124 is also quieter than the Lockheed C-5A & C-5B, though not sure about the re-engined C-5C(M).


"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently offlineSovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2577 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4825 times:
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Quoting RayChuang (Reply 19):
By the way, intermixing hot and cold air in the exhaust stream to reduce noise is not a new idea. Note this older Boeing 707:

Those are turbojets, there is no cold stream....The "things" you see at the end is actually just a bunch of pipes, instead of one huge exhaust nozzle. Here's a picture of the silencer pipes:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank Schaefer



and a picture without them


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Martin Pole



I doubt they were very effective, as I've heard plenty about the ridiculous amount of noise those 707 turbojets made.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4769 times:

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 23):
I doubt they were very effective, as I've heard plenty about the ridiculous amount of noise those 707 turbojets made.

Lemme tell you, son....my ears are STILL bleeding..


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