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CAL LHR Slots?  
User currently offlineBucknut From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 45 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5330 times:

With all the talk about Delta getting slots at LHR, We haven't heard any plans on CAL. I believe the start up date for CAL is march of 08. Any news?

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNWA757boy From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5296 times:

It might be harder for CAL to get some slots at LHR I would think, since their skyteam partners, AF and KL are closer to DL and NW respectivley. And since it's rumored that DL will be getting most of if not all of their slots from AF and KL ( I havent really heard what NW plans on doing with LHR) it might be difficult for AF and KL to dish out some more slots to CAL, afterall AF and KL still, I would think, want some sort of presence in LHR, they don't want to give away all of their slots. Maybe AZ will be willing to give up a few lots?

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7642 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 1):
It might be harder for CAL to get some slots at LHR I would think, since their skyteam partners, AF and KL are closer to DL and NW respectivley. And since it's rumored that DL will be getting most of if not all of their slots from AF and KL ( I havent really heard what NW plans on doing with LHR) it might be difficult for AF and KL to dish out some more slots to CAL

I wondered that myself. If AF/KL gave their slots to DL, where will CO get their slots? Or will they get slots at all? They need at least two to have a roundtrip from IAH. They will probably want more. They might be able to buy some slots off of AZ or another European carrier.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5256 times:

Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 1):
It might be harder for CAL to get some slots at LHR I would think, since their skyteam partners, AF and KL are closer to DL and NW respectivley. And since it's rumored that DL will be getting most of if not all of their slots from AF and KL ( I havent really heard what NW plans on doing with LHR) it might be difficult for AF and KL to dish out some more slots to CAL, afterall AF and KL still, I would think, want some sort of presence in LHR, they don't want to give away all of their slots. Maybe AZ will be willing to give up a few lots?

I don't think its a matter of "dishing out slots"...like what LH and UA have for many transatlantic flights, AF/KL might do "revenue sharing" with DL in "exchange" for slots....possibly even with CO.....it might be better use for AF/KL to do that over bringing in smaller planes to preserve those rights...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5210 times:

who knows what is going on behind closed doors but DL is winning contest after contest in all aspects of its business when it comes to getting a leg up on the competition If it's between DL and CO for slots from the AF group, methinks DL is doing everything it can to make sure it gets the slots and a competitive advantage. Notice that CO has not even said it is trying for EWR slots right away.

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5196 times:

Both DL and CO would have to be seriously cheaper than VS/BA/AA transAtalantic for me to consider flying them - especially in Y.

CO's C class is good but for the same money EWR/JFK-LHR you could have new Club World or VS Upper Class.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7642 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5190 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
Notice that CO has not even said it is trying for EWR slots right away.

They have said they want slots for IAH first. Then they will go for EWR.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
who knows what is going on behind closed doors but DL is winning contest after contest in all aspects of its business when it comes to getting a leg up on the competition If it's between DL and CO for slots from the AF group, methinks DL is doing everything it can to make sure it gets the slots and a competitive advantage.

Its still early in the game, CO still has several avenues to try before we say CO wont be getting any LHR slots. My guess is that they will be able to come up with at least two by the time open skies takes effect.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5186 times:

oh I'm hardly writing CO off... I just think DL will throw its weight around in such a way to gain an advantage if that is at all possible.

User currently offlineStyle From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5042 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 7):
I just think DL will throw its weight around

This isn't the 'Delta' of the good ole days, I don't see how DL has more weight to throw around compared to CO or NW.

Until March 08 and we actually see who's flying what from where with how many slots I wouldn't say anybody has a leg up on the competition, especially Delta.


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2415 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4996 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 7):
I just think DL will throw its weight around in such a way to gain an advantage if that is at all possible.

No shit.

There is no doubt in my mind that CO will find and purchase enough slots to do exactly what they want to at LHR. Hell, they may have even secured them already, but have not made a fuss over it.

Continental will launch service to IAH first since this route has a greater profit potential than EWR/CLE or elsewhere. The NYC-LON market will be flooded with seats (LHR especially) immediately following adoption of Open Skies, so CO is probably playing it close to the vest as 1) the market may require some time to stabilize, and 2) CO will need at least 3, perhaps more daily slots to LHR to be competitive with an EWR route. Since IAH is first priority, it may take more time for CO to acquire additional slots for a sufficient EWR operation.

Once the 787s come online, and rest assured, they will be at LHR, you can chalk that up as a real leg up on the competition!


User currently offlineAsuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4863 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
Notice that CO has not even said it is trying for EWR slots right away.

As stated above, why waste the slot on a route with a ton of competition.

What I don't understand is why everyone thinks CO is dependent on SkyTeam airlines for slots. What prevents them from getting a slot from VS and revenue sharing on the route?


User currently offlineFUN2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1051 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4686 times:

While a considerable amount of bashing is going on for CO's "lack of action", has anyone even heard a word from NWA on this subject. Realize they only have 2 daily LGW's. Will they just stay at LGW?

User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4642 times:

I disagree that NYC-LHR will see a large increase in the number of flights upon OpenSkies starting.NW and US are both (very) unlikely to start flights. DL has (or is close to starting) 2 dailies from LGW and it's unlikely they will have more than 3 from LHR for a while as soon as they switch their operations to LHR. VS or BA might add a flight each but given the size of the market this is rather insignificant.
The main reason why CO will start IAH-LHR before EWR-LHR is due to the large amount of oil-traffic that will be connecting on to Africa, the Middle East etc. A higher percentage of CO's EWR-LHR traffic will be O&D, partly due to CO's impressive European network and the increasing availability of NYC-India nonstops on both CO and other airlines, reducing the need for such traffic to connect. I think the hub-to-point mode of operations will increase in time but that's another subject.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4492 times:

Quoting Donder10 (Reply 12):
The main reason why CO will start IAH-LHR before EWR-LHR is due to the large amount of oil-traffic that will be connecting on to Africa, the Middle East etc. A higher percentage of CO's EWR-LHR traffic will be O&D, partly due to CO's impressive European network and the increasing availability of NYC-India nonstops on both CO and other airlines, reducing the need for such traffic to connect. I think the hub-to-point mode of operations will increase in time but that's another subject.

...while I don't disagree with your premise above, I'm curious as to how things will work (in terms of competition, which pax will choose to fly CO or EK to fly to other destinations, etc.) out once EK start DXB-IAH nonstop flights......

..that being said, I think IAH-LHR will do just fine... yes 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7642 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4467 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
...while I don't disagree with your premise above, I'm curious as to how things will work (in terms of competition, which pax will choose to fly CO or EK to fly to other destinations, etc.) out once EK start DXB-IAH nonstop flights......

The question in my mind is will CO put its numbers on EK's IAH-DXB?

Quoting Donder10 (Reply 12):
The main reason why CO will start IAH-LHR before EWR-LHR is due to the large amount of oil-traffic that will be connecting on to Africa, the Middle East etc.

Thats one reason.  checkmark 

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 9):
Continental will launch service to IAH first since this route has a greater profit potential than EWR/CLE or elsewhere.

Thats the other reason. NYC-LHR has soooo many flights as it is. IAH has no nonstop flight to LHR. There is definately a market for IAH-LHR, so this is a big reason why IAH-LHR is (and should be) CO's priority to LHR. Why would CO use precious slots on a market that has tons of competition at first?  checkmark 

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
..that being said, I think IAH-LHR will do just fine...

Yes it will!!!



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineRivet42 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 818 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4317 times:

All this talk of slots changing hands like money in a bank seems to overlook one key point, which is that slots are time-specific - i.e. AF slots for a CDG-LHR-CDG flight may be of absolutley no use, time-wise, for an NYC-LHR-NYC or IAH-LHR-IAH flight. It's going to be a lot more complicated, and carriers such as AF, KL, LH and even SK are certain to protect the slots that feed their own network connections, before offering up any 'spare' slots for trade. Whch means the available slots will likely be much less attractive than everyone seems to think.

Quoting Style (Reply 8):
Until March 08 and we actually see who's flying what from where with how many slots I wouldn't say anybody has a leg up on the competition, especially Delta.

Exactly.



I travel, therefore I am.
User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4285 times:

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 9):
Once the 787s come online, and rest assured, they will be at LHR, you can chalk that up as a real leg up on the competition!

Really? Seems like that wouldn't be the best use of the 787's capabilities. I'd think that CO is using those to open up new long haul flights to unserved cities from IAH and EWR. Seeing that LGW has 2 daily 772's from IAH, it seems like the 777 would be the best aircraft for the LHR flights.

Quoting Donder10 (Reply 12):
The main reason why CO will start IAH-LHR before EWR-LHR is due to the large amount of oil-traffic that will be connecting on to Africa, the Middle East etc.

I don't know about that. I'd think that most of CO passengers going onto Africa and the Middle East would go through the 2 Skyteam hubs at AMS and CDG. Who would CO passengers connect to at LHR? Certainly not BA, and I think that they only code share on VS on East Coast-LHR flights.


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2415 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4285 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):

Thats the other reason. NYC-LHR has soooo many flights as it is. IAH has no nonstop flight to LHR. There is definately a market for IAH-LHR, so this is a big reason why IAH-LHR is (and should be) CO's priority to LHR.

I would say that the oil traffic is the ONLY reason IAH is more attractive than EWR for LHR service, and that leads to the greater profit potential. Major oil companies in the Houston area have long-standing contracts with Continental, and the ability to tap into the availability of LHR's Africa and Middle East network makes that relationship much more attractive. This would equate to some serious premium-cabin demand.

As far as aircraft availability for the route, I could see CO quite readily switching the 2 existing 777 flights from IAH-LGW to IAH-LHR, and to maintain presence in the LGW market (as they have stated, their intention is to do so), they could temporarily can the 2nd IAH-AMS frequency (CO58/59), use that aircraft for a 4x weekly IAH-LGW service, and wait until the delivery of 787s or further swaps to restore frequencies to those markets. AMS will probably see a reduction in demand with LHR service, so that move could be justified, even though AMS is so much more pleasant to connect through.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4086 times:

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 15):
All this talk of slots changing hands like money in a bank seems to overlook one key point, which is that slots are time-specific - i.e. AF slots for a CDG-LHR-CDG flight may be of absolutley no use, time-wise, for an NYC-LHR-NYC or IAH-LHR-IAH flight. It's going to be a lot more complicated, and carriers such as AF, KL, LH and even SK are certain to protect the slots that feed their own network connections, before offering up any 'spare' slots for trade. Whch means the available slots will likely be much less attractive than everyone seems to think.

...if one is to look at the arrivals to LHR from the various cities in the United States such as JFK, ORD, LAX, SFO, BOS, MIA, etc...one would see

1)both AF and KL have slots which would fulfill the "morning bank" of flights which arrive from the USA to LHR a
2)....same as above for the "evening banks"

....I think two things will happen

1)revenue sharing like UA/LH does
2)CO/DL buying some slots in the "open" market....

...a combination of these two will be more than enough to satisfy the needs for both DL and CO for now.....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4076 times:

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 10):
What I don't understand is why everyone thinks CO is dependent on SkyTeam airlines for slots. What prevents them from getting a slot from VS and revenue sharing on the route?

Are you kidding, hell will freeze over before VS gives away slots. They need them badly, why do you think SRB wants to buy BD?!


User currently offlineRivet42 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 818 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3827 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
1)both AF and KL have slots which would fulfill the "morning bank" of flights which arrive from the USA to LHR a
2)....same as above for the "evening banks"

But you assume AF and KL don't have good use for those slots. Traditionally those early morning inbounds to LHR from Europe (which is an hour ahead of UK) are likely to be very high yield, so why would they sell them? This has been a reason for BA having aircraft overnighting in Europe, in order to tap in to that premuim early morning market. Any of the key European players would be mad to give up those slots.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
2)CO/DL buying some slots in the "open" market....

You can't buy what's not for sale. There's already enough demand for slots by existing residents which is not being met by 'the open market', how's that going to improve as a result of Open Skies?



I travel, therefore I am.
User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 17):
I would say that the oil traffic is the ONLY reason IAH is more attractive than EWR for LHR service, and that leads to the greater profit potential. Major oil companies in the Houston area have long-standing contracts with Continental, and the ability to tap into the availability of LHR's Africa and Middle East network makes that relationship much more attractive.

Yes, but what airline is CO going to connect these passengers to? LHR isn't exactly a big Skyteam hub. If CO passengers want to get from IAH to Afrida/ME, they'll go through CDG or AMS on AF/KL. CO sure as heck isn't going to connect any pax to BAs flights, and IIRC their partnership with VS is only a code share on flights from the US to LHR.

Also, CO is moving the IAH service first because BA announced that they would move all IAH service to LHR from LGW as soon as open skies goes into effect. Thus, CO needs to serve LHR to be competitive on the route.


User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3589 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
Thats the other reason. NYC-LHR has soooo many flights as it is. IAH has no nonstop flight to LHR. There is definately a market for IAH-LHR, so this is a big reason why IAH-LHR is (and should be) CO's priority to LHR. Why would CO use precious slots on a market that has tons of competition at first?

You must remember that BA will also move IAH to LHR when open skies comes into action and also it being upgraded to a 744 with the 70 J seats to grab passengers as well. CO will have to fly a 772 into LHR to match BA on the services. BA will be I think the most benefitial from the ending of Bermuda II and i expect that since BA sold GB to BMI then those slots that they kept from the deal will be used to open up the LGW-US flights to LHR. Also i expect to see that all the 767 routes across the atlantic not to the US (which unfortunately i only see NAS-GCM being one of those flights.... any more?) being moved across to LGW and possibly upgraded again to 777 so BA can use those slots to there advantage on the US routes. wouldnt be suprised to see maybe the second BA flight from LHR-MIA also moved to LGW for the leisure passengers also to get slots (also changed to a 772 then).

Out of mind what routes are served from LGW to US by BA??


User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3564 times:

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 22):
BA will also move IAH to LHR when open skies comes into action and also it being upgraded to a 744 with the 70 J seats to grab passengers as well

Great news, another pax 744 to IAH? Will they stick with two daily frequencies or just have a daily 744 flight? Currently the IAH route has 2 daily 777's.

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 22):
Out of mind what routes are served from LGW to US by BA??

IAH, DFW, MCO, ATL, PHX are the ones that I can think of.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3502 times:

Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 11):
While a considerable amount of bashing is going on for CO's "lack of action", has anyone even heard a word from NWA on this subject. Realize they only have 2 daily LGW's. Will they just stay at LGW?

NWA has every intention of flying to LHR and has stated this. They will formally announce it when it fact and not vapor.


25 LAXdude1023 : My guess is that every airline that wants to fly to LHR will get to. They might not get a whole lot of slots, but I bet both CO and NW will be able t
26 Cba : The open skies agreement is going to put a tremendous increase in demand for LHR slots, thus making them more expensive on the open market. It's pure
27 Post contains links 102IAHexpress : Remember that no one is giving away any slots to anybody. If AF or KL want to sell some of their slots to their Skyteam partners in the US and if VS
28 Cba : I don't think we'll see any 787's to London. Those will mostly likely be used to open new destinations in Europe and Asia, and potentially Australia.
29 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ....slots are always available...if one is willing to spend the money for them....I think DL and CO could certainly justify the expense of purchasing
30 Coewraatysaz : Bankruptcy is a wonderful thing when you can go from the bottom to the top all because you basically cheat. What is the advantage to AA and CO stayin
31 Nwa757boy : Not to completely hijack the thread, but I have a feeling that DTW will loose LHR service from BA, from what I hear the flight does poorly. It now co
32 LAXdude1023 : All BA has really said is that once open skies take effect, they would like to move IAH, DFW, and ATL service to LHR. Where they will get the slots o
33 FUN2FLY : I think NWA has the best shot - new 787's coming online in 2008 along w/open skies. Could be a deal changer for them if they get the slots. Others w/
34 LAXdude1023 : CO is also getting the 787. I dont think either is at an advantage at this point.
35 Asuflyer05 : Chill out. I was using VS as an example. My point was they can get the slots from anyone, it doesn't have to be from a Skyteam partner. They'll get t
36 COewrAAtysAZ : I made that statement knowing the facts. I was really looking at a time period post-9/11. Regardless of whether it is the airline industry or any oth
37 Jfk777 : With ten and a half months to go until CAL can land at LHR some slot(s) will become available. AF and KLM might provide a few but Delta and NW also wa
38 FUN2FLY : My point was the slot game starts in 2008 and NWA will have several new 787's then. CO is one year behind and out of planes except one diversion of a
39 WorldTraveler : the Delta of the past was a little nice for its own good. This Delta has some teeth and isn't afraid to tussle with the big boys - and has the know h
40 Post contains images Rivet42 : Right. So some airlines are just waiting to pull out of LHR, as soon as someone offers them the right price? I wonder which airlines that might be...
41 Post contains images 777gk : Watch. The 787s will give Continental a very marketable competitive advantage in a place (LHR) where they will need it. There is no doubt LHR will se
42 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...thanks for taking the piss out of my comments...I would give you some credibility but the problem is your comments are just flat out incorrect....
43 Albird87 : Well BA might not make the rotue profitable but im sure AA will love to fly into DFW from LHR! I mean i think they would love to do that since day on
44 Post contains images Rivet42 : Fair enough, I'm aware of the way everyone is talking up the availability of slots, but most of it is pure speculation, and of course one would expec
45 Cba : Hmm, good point. I'm assuming we'll have to wait for the 789 to come online before we see a CO 787 at LHR, as the 788 seems to be too small for this
46 777gk : The 789, which comprises the bulk of CO's orders, is between the 764 and 772 in capacity, so this could be the solution.
47 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...of course it is pure speculation (until a carrier makes an announcement).....the point is that there is a very high statistical probability that b
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