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Buffett Battles Bush As Corporate-Jet Owners Fight  
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10810 times:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...670001&refer=home&sid=a_weVSOX_Ito

President George W. Bush is proposing to cut the amount passenger carriers such as American Airlines and Continental Airlines pay in federal taxes each year by $1.68 billion. Most of that obligation would be shifted to small-jet operators, including General Motors Corp., Exxon Mobil Corp. and NetJets Inc., the business-jet charter company owned by Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc.

Under current law, the government collects $2,015 in taxes every time a full Boeing Co. 757-200 jet flies between New York and Florida, according to the Federal Aviation Administration. A General Dynamics Corp. Gulfstream 4 business jet flying a similar route -- and requiring the same amount of attention from air-traffic controllers -- pays $236, agency figures show.

Under Bush's plan, the operators of the Boeing jet would pay $1,298, and owners of the Gulfstream would pay $837.

116 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineContnlEliteCMH From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1458 posts, RR: 44
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10765 times:

Something stinks about this whole thing.

The large airlines ''are carrying the majority of the costs'' now, says Senator Jay Rockefeller, the West Virginia Democrat who heads the Senate Commerce subcommittee on aviation. ''Two-thirds of the planes in the sky are private jets. They've got to do more.'' Rockefeller, 69, and Mississippi Republican Trent Lott, 65, are the chief sponsors of the Commerce Committee measure.

This it *totally* irrelevant, so far as I can tell, to the workload of controllers. Who accounts for 2/3's of the takeoffs and landings that must be controlled? Yet another example that people can't do math, but this shocks none of us who can.

In my opinion, this is just posturing. If the FAA were actually competent to improve the air traffic control system for which they have already paid too much money and gotten nothing, this would be less of an issue. And I've paid a lot of tax on airfare in the past few years -- too much in my opinion -- but I don't see the distribution as inequitable because passenger jets create so much traffic.



Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
User currently offlineJAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10757 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Under current law, the government collects $2,015 in taxes every time a full Boeing Co. 757-200 jet flies between New York and Florida, according to the Federal Aviation Administration. A General Dynamics Corp. Gulfstream 4 business jet flying a similar route -- and requiring the same amount of attention from air-traffic controllers -- pays $236, agency figures show.

Yet a Boeing 757 requires massive airport infrastructure that's paid for those same taxes whiela a G-4 pretty much just needs a decent runway.


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10728 times:

Quoting JAL777 (Reply 2):

Yet a Boeing 757 requires massive airport infrastructure that's paid for those same taxes whiela a G-4 pretty much just needs a decent runway.

Incorrect. The airport infrastructure is paid for by landing fees, not taxes. The issue here is the air control system, which makes no difference if you have a private G-4 jet, or a 757-200. This is pretty sound business practice. Charge people according to what your costs are. (That I suspect won't be popular on A.net).


User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2001 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10640 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):

Problem is...the G4s aren't clogging up the airports where ATC is the worst. Yes, there are a few airports they contribute some congestion but most of the airports where ATC is a problem, it's because of airline traffic.

I don't mind paying a little extra to help fund a new ATC system. But the problem is, the FAA has had a terrible track record in trying to implement a "new system." Until they can prove they are able to manage the money and get results, why would I want to give them a ton of money just to flush down the drain. Also, why does the FAA think avgas needs to go up by as much as they are proposing. Is GA going to reap many of the benefits from paying this huge increase in taxes? So far, I don't think so. Again, I don't mind paying $25 or however much it is for a new license or other smaller nominal fees to cover those expenses, but for what they are asking GA pilots to pay for is over the edge, IMO.


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10632 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Under Bush's plan, the operators of the Boeing jet would pay $1,298, and owners of the Gulfstream would pay $837.

So, does this mean ticket prices will be reduced, or does it mean the airlines' profits will be boosted?  Wink


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10507 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 5):
So, does this mean ticket prices will be reduced, or does it mean the airlines' profits will be boosted?

Seeing as most airlines aren't making a profit, more like the airlines' costs will be lower  Smile


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10472 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
A General Dynamics Corp. Gulfstream 4 business jet flying a similar route -- and requiring the same amount of attention from air-traffic controllers

Hardly. A G-IV can fly up in the 40,000+ levels, above most of the other traffic (and gets up there quickly), and will likely choose to land at ORL, and so does not affect the traffic arriving at MCO. That jet would also likely be departing out of TEB or HPN as opposed to LGA, EWR or JFK, and so would not contribute to the congestion at those airports.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSeattle Ops From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10402 times:

Its about time the corporate jets paid their way!

User currently offlineKohflot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10378 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
That jet would also likely be departing out of TEB or HPN as opposed to LGA, EWR or JFK, and so would not contribute to the congestion at those airports.

The problem doesn't lie solely within the boundaries of airports. Biz jets departing TEB or HPN are just as likely to clog up New York Center airspace (and thus Cleveland Center airspace heading west). Sure they may cruise at FL430, but they have to get there.. and conversely, they have to fit in the arrival flow into the NYC terminal area.

And this is just New York we're talking about... not even Boston, DC, Chicago, or Oakland (centers) - to name a handful of the biggest ATC problems in the country....


User currently offlineVapar8 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10359 times:

So if I pay the Tax as a GA pilot this should mean everytime I want to fly through class Bravo airspace they will let me?

User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10359 times:

The hole in the sky while on the CIVET arrival into LAX I make in a GV or GIV is the same size to a controller as the hole made by a 767. In fact, my aircraft is more of a pain because they have to figure out where I fit in while I'm at FL450 and the airline traffic is down in the 30's.

My aircraft is cruising at M.85 while the traffic flow I'm being wedged into is bopping along at M.82 or less.

Bizjets should pay more. $800 from NYC to FL may be a bit high but not exhorbitant. It's not like the boss is going to sell his Gulfstream and ride on Skybus... TC



FL450, M.85
User currently offlineSprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10246 times:

I think the big issue will be having to pay for WX briefs, using flight following and such for prop jobs. As a rec pilot, I dont think I would pay for a WX brief just to fly for few hours around PBI, but since it is free right now I get a brief every time I go for a flight, even if it is just touch and goes at F45. And if you have to pay to use certain air space, most people would avoid it, and land their biz jets at places like F45. User fees are just wrong when it comes to safety related items.

Dan in Jupiter


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10226 times:

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 4):

Problem is...the G4s aren't clogging up the airports where ATC is the worst. Yes, there are a few airports they contribute some congestion but most of the airports where ATC is a problem, it's because of airline traffic.

From the article, and other reference material, the FAA estimates that corporate business jets consume about 60% of their available work load. That strikes me as being a bit out of line given the general prices that they are currently charging.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10163 times:

Quoting AA717driver (Reply 11):
The hole in the sky while on the CIVET arrival into LAX I make in a GV or GIV is the same size to a controller as the hole made by a 767. In fact, my aircraft is more of a pain because they have to figure out where I fit in while I'm at FL450 and the airline traffic is down in the 30's.

Well, that's LAX. If you were going to BUR, VNY or LGB, you wouldn't be on the CIVET, or any of the other arrivals to LAX. I have no problem with charging GA more at Class B airports like LAX, LGA or BOS - there are a number of alternatives available for each of those. But a blanket increase in taxes would have a drastic negative effect, particularly (perhaps ironically so) in areas that are out in the middle of nowhere where controllers would be thrilled just to get a few pilots per hour who want VFR flight following.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 6):
Seeing as most airlines aren't making a profit, more like the airlines' costs will be lower

The airlines' costs would stay the same. Airlines don't pay the taxes themselves.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2001 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10089 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):

That doesn't sound right...I'm going to try and look up more statistics if I get some time on this.

*edit* I wonder if he is accounting every single small jet that takes to the sky. That would include Part 135 operators. Now...I'm still looking (maybe someone can enlighten me) to see exactly how the Part 135 operators pay into the AIP/ATC. If they pay a percentage of revenue into the AIP/ATC just like passengers, those numbers he is talking has to be way off. Again...I just don't see how 60% of the jets flying up there are corporately owned and not on a Part 135 certificate.

[Edited 2007-05-14 20:37:36]

[Edited 2007-05-14 20:41:12]

User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10077 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
The airlines' costs would stay the same. Airlines don't pay the taxes themselves.

Oh? Who does?


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10023 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 16):
Oh? Who does?

You. And me. And anyone else who books a ticket. It's all part of the "taxes and fees" that get added onto the base fare. Very rarely will a business eat a tax - they tend to pass it on to the consumer.

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 15):
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):


That doesn't sound right...I'm going to try and look up more statistics if I get some time on this.

That doesn't sound right to me either.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineContnlEliteCMH From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1458 posts, RR: 44
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9996 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
From the article, and other reference material, the FAA estimates that corporate business jets consume about 60% of their available work load. That strikes me as being a bit out of line given the general prices that they are currently charging.

Forget about what they're charging. Let's just look at some simple numbers to see if this is believable.

Per http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/20...2_07/html/bts022_07.html#table_01, the industry flew 715,900 flights in February '07 per Table 7.

Shouldn't we assume that all commercial flights have to be "handled" by ATC? If so, in order for small jets to be 60% of their workload, this would require nearly *1.2 million* small jet flights in February. Maybe I'm completely out of touch with what I observe at airports, but this is an outrageous number and totally unbelievable. I *might* believe 100,000 small jet flights per month, in which case the amounts presently charged are not so far out of line. I might even believe more, but 60%?



Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
User currently offlineJpax From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1018 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9926 times:

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 12):
I think the big issue will be having to pay for WX briefs, using flight following and such for prop jobs. As a rec pilot, I dont think I would pay for a WX brief just to fly for few hours around PBI, but since it is free right now I get a brief every time I go for a flight, even if it is just touch and goes at F45. And if you have to pay to use certain air space, most people would avoid it, and land their biz jets at places like F45. User fees are just wrong when it comes to safety related items.

To add, I believe they (FAA) were proposing a user charge for precision approaches. That spells catastrophe.

And in agreement, I also do not think I would pay for a WX brief especially since the cost of GA has already risen significantly over the past years and is still rising. The brief, airspace fees, etc would easily tack on a double digit charge to the already expensive flight bill. No thanks!


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8958 posts, RR: 40
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9872 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
From the article, and other reference material, the FAA estimates that corporate business jets consume about 60% of their available work load.

At least from the impression I get from the article, that's according to Senator Jay Rockefeller--not the FAA. I think Senator Rockefeller meant to say two-thirds are GA flights, not just private jets.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9832 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
I think Senator Rockefeller meant to say two-thirds are GA flights, not just private jets.

That's probably correct. And, of course, a very sizable percentage of GA flights do not get involved in the ATC system.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMach3 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9653 times:

Very little of the money collected from the Airport and Airways Taxing finds it way back into the system. Congress is reluctant to tap that fun since they use is to offset the budget losses. With the current make up of the FAA could you imagine the enept FAA geting its hands on the money in the fund and wasting it all on unfounded programs as it has in the past. Giving the FAA that money would be like giving a drunk a case of Booz! It would be gone quickly and nothing to show for it. The Aviation Community is scares crapless the force the use of the money and and cowtows to the FAA. Just think how much better our airways system would be if that money were used and the FAA had hard accountability on its use of it.


If you pull on the Tiger's tail, better be prepared for him to bite you in the ARSE
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8906 times:

Quoting Seattle Ops (Reply 8):
Its about time the corporate jets paid their way!

I don't mind corporate paying its share, however the bill will impact all of GA. So the guy flying around his Cessna, who can least afford it, will get hit hard. As a result, this bill will cripple GA. Also GA guys will be less likely to use ATC, because of the cost, and you will see a rise in accident rates.

Quoting Vapar8 (Reply 10):
So if I pay the Tax as a GA pilot this should mean everytime I want to fly through class Bravo airspace they will let me?

I would think so, treat a 767 the same as a GIV, and the same as a C152. If it passes I will start to use the primary airports instead of relievers.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 12):
I think the big issue will be having to pay for WX briefs,


There is plenty of free information available on the Internet, from DUATS, NOAA, etc. However, flight following will be the issue, along with filing IFR. If the costs go up, you will see people take risks more and more to avoid the costs. And the accident rates will rise.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8796 times:

As a degreed meteorologist I can give myself a better briefing than a briefer can in many cases as far as the wx goes (I would hope I can anyways, haha), but I still like filing that VFR flight plan for any xc type of flight, and using flight following depending where I'm going... not to mention finding out about those pesky TFR's. You never know where George, Dick, Condy, etc. are going to be travelling to and bringing their TFR circus to town with them. Internet sources don't always update those as well as I'd like them to. And I don't think any of us wants to play chicken with an F-16.

25 3201 : Fractionals and other bizjets are where nearly all the premium revenue is, so they should definitely be paying taxes and fees at at least the rate of
26 Boeing727flyer : Nice to see Bush sticking it to aviation again - lets see how long it lasts when he realises that his Father charters a private Gulfstream as do most
27 3201 : All those guys have so much $$$, and pay big enough bills, they'll never even notice the difference. No one will stop flying fractionals or bizjets b
28 Skibum9 : Yep.....With his approach it won't be long until you see user fees for boaters to pay for the Coast Guard, user fees for cars drivers to pay for High
29 Khobar : How is Bush sticking it to aviation again? Wow, the middle class are flying around in Gulfstreams? Go on...you made that up!
30 Tugger : Excellent post! I agree that the value of the service is the key. We don't to hobble the base of the entire aviation sector while at the same time ma
31 Tornado82 : Will a G4 going, let's say TEB-MDW, at FL380, pay the same fees as a VLJ going TEB-MDW at FL380 (some do reach FL380)? The VLJ is slower, therefore wi
32 Molykote : Incredible! Aren't you getting a bit ahead of yourself? This proposal seems to alleviate a tax burden on the "middle class" flying around on our nati
33 Post contains images 3201 : I agree 100% with this. The middle class are the ones being overtaxed by the current system. This is an uncharacteristic move of restoring a tiny bit
34 Post contains images Acey559 : It's just my luck that right after I get my instrument rating, user fees might be implemented.
35 Flyinryan99 : Again...Fractionals and a lot of Bizjets/turboprops are Part 135 operators...I'll pose the question: do the 135 operators pay tax to the Aviation Tru
36 Mir : As long as airlines continue to quote their prices without taxes included, the amount of tax will factor little into a person's decision to buy or no
37 Bond007 : Well, to answer part of your question ... of all IFR flights, corporate and charter (Part91/135) account for around 15%. Jimbo
38 Theoden : If the cost for me to fly a Cessna becomes prohibitive and I can no longer fly, the FAA will receive nothing from me whereas before they received some
39 Post contains links KBFIspotter : Sorry, it will not work that way... As already stated, the airlines do not pay the tax, they pass it on to you, the consumer. But stop and think abou
40 Post contains images 3201 : Ah yes, I forgot, on all those blue-chip business routes like HPN-PBI, HPN-NAS, TEB-LAS, TEB-SJU, VNY-KOA, VNY-OGG, and wherever the PGA tour is goin
41 Jbernie : So to ask a question to any controllers out there, how much ATC traffic did the super bowl generate last year with all those biz jets flying in/flying
42 Theoden : This is my point, that it doesn't help the middle class to shift the taxes around, the consumer will end up paying for it one way or another. This is
43 3201 : I disagree. If that were the case, you might as well just randomly pick one operator and have them pay all the taxes. It does matter how they're dist
44 Post contains images PPVRA : Agree completely Someone mentioned a figure above, somewhere close to two billion USD could be saved by airlines. That's a good deal. Maybe the airli
45 Molykote : I am not sure I agree with your assertion about ticket prices. However, I'll entertain the following: At one extreme, perhaps ticket prices (or more
46 Mir : What taxes and fees are they not paying? -Mir
47 Ckfred : My wife's company is in love with bizjets. Frankly, the shifting of the tax burden is a good thing. I figured out that the company could save $2500 by
48 JoeCanuck : If they want to stick to the folks who fly above 180, go ahead. I don't think it'll make one bit of difference to the ailines because they'll piss awa
49 KBFIspotter : The skies are not clogging up with bizjets, as you say. Last time I checked, there were many more airliners airborne over the US at one time than cor
50 Bond007 : Correct, that is a very poor example, if you save $2500 by going on American Eagle. Most corporate jet travel represents huge savings in time, money
51 Flyinryan99 : Again....are Part 135 Operators paying taxes to the ATF from their revenue. I believe they do...just like the airline passengers pay taxes to the ATF
52 Starrion : "Stick it to the fatcat business jet users!" cry the airlines. "Our poor passengers are taxed to fund the wealthy"... So once congress buys the tripe
53 LMP737 : My guess is a compnay like Exxon Mobil can afford it. You mean those huge profit margins that the airlines have been pulling in the past six years? Ev
54 PPVRA : The airlines have just as much a right to use that airspace as GA. It makes no difference who's clogging the air. If it did, you could also argue tha
55 Dacman : Another intelligent decision made by Bush Jr. oops did I say intelligent......my bad! Michael (Dacman) LAX / LGB Local
56 Post contains images SansVGs : Isn't this a nice feeling? Nothing like accepting a climb to get by the "slow 7-5" So true--wonder if there was any thought about the risk of losing
57 Cloudy : Why do some people seem to think that the good ole average American in his Cessna will be affected by this? The Bloomberg article is not very specific
58 Sprout5199 : They get priority now. try to land at MIA, ORD, or JFK in a C152. Won't happen but they are still "public" airports. Now thats a smart idea. Fees on
59 Boeing7E7 : So airline capacity should be foregone in favor of private aircraft capacity? That's not even rational. Airport infrastructure is not paid for by tax
60 Sprout5199 : Because he will be affected. If I call FSS, I will be charged, if I ask for flight following I will be charged, If I want to fly in Class "A", "B", "
61 Mir : Certainly. But let's not pretend that the poor airlines are being held up because too many business jets are flying around. Next time you're stuck in
62 Post contains images DeltaDC9 : Wow, he is really evil isnt he? Damn republicans and their attempts to eliminate the people that vote for them! They must be crazy! Uh, did you notic
63 Vapar8 : It will be great flying over Bravo airspace not on VFR flight following. The controllers will love that. Why request it if you dont have to use it and
64 MD-90 : Isn't it interesting that nearly everyone who is in favor of this proposal on this thread because it would help their favorite airlines...aren't pilot
65 Boeing7E7 : Isn't it interesting that nearly every pilot opposed to this proposal doesn't understand airport finance or the free ride GA gets from the revenue ge
66 Tugger : ???? What on earth does THAT have to do with anything? A.) You have no actually data with which to back up your claim. It is merely a hunch (at least
67 Mir : I've yet to hear anyone say that the sky should not be for public use. -Mir
68 LMP737 : Well hell has finally frozen over, we agree on something.
69 SansVGs : I fly with a pilot who is a JD/CPA, one who has an MBA from University or Chicago, and several who are ex-CEO's. I also know of one who went to the L
70 N353SK : I believe graduating from the London School of Economics or having an MBA from the University of Chicago is what makes them experts in the field of f
71 Starrion : One thing I note about Boeing7E7's post is that in talking about user fee implementation in Canada and Europe it says "In Europe, a recent discussion
72 PPVRA : But do you know for a fact that will be how the user fees will be charged? I was thinking something more along the lines of the average cost an aircr
73 Boeing7E7 : Try around 6pm when all the business meetings are over. Crap. Doesn't mean they know jack about airport finance. And certainly not an expert as it is
74 KBFIspotter : Sprout, I agree with you 100% on this. The proposed fees would effectively put GA out of business in the US. Aside from the fees you mentioned, the p
75 Boeing7E7 : Not true. Less than the taxes you pay on gas for your car. Try $0.70 at the highest priced pump.
76 Theoden : Do you have a link or something to back that up. Everything I have read on this says otherwise. If you can demonstrate that GA pilots will not pay fo
77 JoeCanuck : Fact...a great many communities of 100,000 or less have commercial air service. Fact...they are proposing to raise the tax on avgas from an, (alleged)
78 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=8144 Proposed Funding Sources We propose a hybrid funding structure with three funding sour
79 JoeCanuck : Personally, I've rarely seen a tax grab that turned out to be good for anyone except the people collecting. Your average taxpayer would be better serv
80 Boeing7E7 : Just for clarification here for some of you, because apparently there is so much mis-information on this compliments of a freaked out GA community. Th
81 JoeCanuck : The onus to clarify information is on those presenting the information. If the message isn't getting through, perhaps it has to be made clearer. The a
82 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : It's 13.6 cents a gallon across the board. Airlines pay 4.3 cents today and will pay 13.6 under the FAA proposal. That's not some convoluted formula.
83 JoeCanuck : I'm not referring to the dead bill. I'm referring to the facts you posted. Raising the tax to 13.6cents is not the convoluted formula I'm referring to
84 Boeing7E7 : Removal of general fund (income tax) contributions to the FAA and elimination of the 7.5% ticket tax. Airline fuel tax increases from 4.3 cents to th
85 Post contains links Mir : Not according to the tax code, unless your car runs on diesel: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/usc_sec_26_00004081----000-.html The federal tax
86 Boeing7E7 : 70 cents only referes to a refinery direct fueling operation (i.e. bulk fuel/pipeline). The delivery cost on a pipeline feed reduces costs substantia
87 Tornado82 : Diesel is cheaper than gasoline now too. It's the commodities market. Distillates are cheaper than gasoline products. It has nothing to do with GA. I
88 Boeing7E7 : Yup. Imagine the value of revenue generated from a ticket tax when yields in real dollars continue to fall as cost continue to rise. Ooops!
89 JoeCanuck : So what are the real figures for what is collected now and where that money goes? We hear statistics but without a frame of reference, it's nonsense.
90 Tornado82 : JoeCanuck you seem awfully too personally upset about this for someone waving a Canadian flag and claiming home as Doha Qatar. What's up with that?
91 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Try reading, there are no evil FAA black helicopters out to get you. The only think you have to fret about is a fuel tax reduction and your buddies a
92 JoeCanuck : I'm a private pilot and I love to fly. I've been a fractional owner of a 1966 Piper Cherokee 140. I've dealt with the expenses of participating in som
93 JoeCanuck : So there's lots of time to spoon feed feel good pablum to the masses about how those nasty private planes are killing the airlines but not enough tim
94 Starrion : Yeah, AOPA just sent out the request for help ($$) in order to fight off this revision of user fees. I think everyone knows what happens when the gov
95 JoeCanuck : In a nutshell, my objection isn't necessarily to a tax increase. A government needs taxes to function. My objection is that they are doing a terrible
96 Starrion : And once the fees are implemented on the turbine guys, it will only be a matter of time before they come back to the well. Government programs -never-
97 Post contains links Mir : You might want to read Page 41 Line 7-9 again and accompany it with the other link I posted, specifically Section 2(A)(ii). The new tax would be 70.0
98 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : The amendment only affects the structure of funding and administration, not the structure of governance and oversight which is covered in the rest of
99 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Anyone else find it incredibly disturbing that NBAA promotes a 25% contribution (a tax increase for all US citizens) from the Federal General fund to
100 JoeCanuck : Anyone else find it incredibly naive to think that only pilots and passengers benefit from aviation?
101 Boeing7E7 : Regardless, save for emergency service (exempt under the FAA proposals) its private transportation. Highways are a net benefit, but at least users pa
102 JoeCanuck : So by the same token, if someone doesn't have a boat, do they still have to pay for the coast guard...? Awesome...so taxpayers only have to pay for th
103 Boeing7E7 : If you crash your little plane we don't mind funding your search and rescue team, paying for an investigation, or cleaning up whatever is left. By th
104 JoeCanuck : Wow...Such vitriol. If it helps, I'll explain it again. ATC, for example, exists for commercial aviation. In that respect, yes, the are costs are fix
105 Boeing7E7 : Yeah I'll do that. I'll call up one of the airports who have me on a retainer. They'll think it odd I'm calling them for advice, but eh... What the h
106 Starrion : Killing GA would be good for the environment? Really? Once all those runways are plowed under and all the buffer zone forests are chopped down, and a
107 Boeing7E7 : I'm sorry, but contributing $516 million to a funding requirement of $2.7 billion when you include AIP ($2.2B) and FAA ($500M) costs at non-commerica
108 LMP737 : The question is how many touch and goes are done each week by GA aircraft. Also considering the fact that air travle only accounts for 2% of greenhou
109 LMP737 : The question is how many touch and goes are done each week by GA aircraft. Also considering the fact that air travel only accounts for 2% of greenhous
110 Flyinryan99 : That's right...you'll see less flying in the GA community. Less flying = less gas being used = less $$$. And what about the newer aircraft that are c
111 Mir : Except that calling the airline vs. using the website doesn't carry the same significance of calling a briefer vs. doing it online. If you don't read
112 Boeing7E7 : No government agency is immune from rules. If you think they are, you're more paranoid than Canuck.
113 Post contains links JoeCanuck : Nice. I asked you to keep me out of it but you couldn't resist. Did you have attention issues as a kid? Now I can understand the need for extra fees.
114 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 113): As soon as you started throwing tantrums, any credibility you thought you had disappeared. Earlier, I said live and let
115 Bimmerkid19 : I´ve seen G-IV´s and G-V´s leaving MSP all time, and anybodz from the Minnesota, Western Wisconsin, and Northern Iowa knows how crowded MSP gets,
116 Mir : MSP, busy though it may be, is not one that I'd consider to be seriously overcrowded the way ORD, LAX, ATL or JFK are. Though I'd have no problem wit
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