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Add'l Info On AA's 777 Upgrades  
User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2296 posts, RR: 13
Posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6730 times:

Ok. Here is some more information on the upgrades coming to AA's 777s. As mentioned before, the T7s are getting the new business class seats, or, as AA calls them, next generation business class seats. The new IFE system is indeed a Rockwell Collins system, not the Panasonic eFX or eX2 system. No model number was mentioned in the information I read today.

The new system will be on demand for first and business class, with several movie channels, tv channels, games and 50 audio CDs. For the coach cabin the video entertainment will be near on demand, with content starting every 25 minutes. The j-class is getting two new seats, 8 H and J, bringing business class to 37 seats. And, one of the three lavs is being removed.

Also, the remaining 20 aircraft with the coffin-style seats will be getting the Flagship Suites. The first a/c to be completed with new Flagship Suits, new j-class and new IFE will be 7AM and will be released in July. The entire 777 retrofit project for all aircraft will be complete by May 2008.

The bulk head seats in business class will be equipped with airbelts. They are seat belts with built in airbags that inflate automatically based on deceleration forces. Rather interesting.

For AA F/As: If you've seen the Special Briefing, did you notice in the picture with the new j-class seats two seats in the background? Could those be the new first seats for the 757? I'll be at FSU this week and try to get more info. If those are the new seats, they look great!

[Edited 2007-05-16 03:37:46]


The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMGASJO From Nicaragua, joined Feb 2005, 466 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6640 times:

Interesting report QQflyboy. Do send some pictures of the new seats for the 757.
Good luck on FSU, make sure to get your 'Have a nice day" when you order your breakfast.



C208B
User currently offlineWCS From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 255 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6636 times:

Quoting QQflyboy (Thread starter):
For the coach cabin the video entertainment will be near on demand, with content starting every 25 minutes

While I'm not a huge fan about IFE and so, I think it's quite frustrating. Once you had tasted IFE like the one on KL A330 (and I presume 777), the "almost on demand" looks like totally "has been". Now I think it's a pity to update system with not state of the art technology!

That being said, thanks for the update regarding AA update process.

Regards,



FLY SKYTEAM JETS
User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2296 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6589 times:

Quoting WCS (Reply 2):
the "almost on demand" looks like totally "has been". Now I think it's a pity to update system with not state of the art technology!

I totally agree. It is definitely an improvement over the current system, but it should be on demand throughout the aircraft, not just the premium cabins.

Also, I just completed on the online 777 enhancement training and in that I learned there will be 15 games available at each seat, including coach. Premium cabin customers will also be able to create their own play list from the 50 audio CDs available. Coach, on the other hand, will continue to get the 14 audio channels currently offered.

The new business class seats will feature a 10.6" screen, first 8.4" (the current Flagship Suite monitor).

Within a year we'll see this entire project completed. None too soon.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6570 times:

Once again, QQ, thanks so much for the interesting information.

Quoting QQflyboy (Thread starter):
For the coach cabin the video entertainment will be near on demand

At some point, you have to sh*t or get off the pot, for lack of a better phrase. These ridiculous piece-meal changes that continually leave AA just one step behind where their competitors were -- 5 years earlier -- are pathetic. They're paying to install all of this new seat-back IFE hardware/software, etc. anyway, and while I recognize that it would have cost a few million more dollars to give the entire plane on demand IFE -- as other airlines had almost a decade ago -- but honestly, this is just so cheap.

Customers recognize it, too. AA thinks they're pulling a fast one by only redoing the 763 cabins with new interiors, overhead bins, etc. back to the mid-cabin galley/lavs in Y, and thinks that their customers aren't smart enough to notice that they can only get "near on demand" IFE on AA while their competitors (including U.S. airlines, IINM) can give them completely on demand IFE on every 777. AA thinks people don't notice that Delta and United give you "signature cocktails" while AA's First and Business Class passengers get a "signature" club soda with lemon? AA thinks the Exec Plats in suits paying $100,000 per year to fly AA F don't know that they can't get salt and pepper shakers any more (except the rations that dedicated flight attendants steal and keep in their luggage just in case)?

It's just sad that a company that used to be a the forefront of change and innovation in the industry is now content to constantly stay firmly behind the curve on what the industry is doing. In numerous ways and multiple areas, AA just cannot seem to innovate at all, even in the smallest areas. I think the last moves that AA made that were truly "innovative," and if not ahead of the industry curve at least towards the front end of it, were the noise-canceling BOSE headsets (about 1999-2000) and international self-service check-in machines (2006).

I understand that the company is building back its balance sheet which, unlike its U.S. competitors, wasn't wiped completely clean through bankruptcy, and thus they are being extremely conservative and risk-averse, but still: at some point, AA is actually going to have to make a stand or just continue ceding more and more markets to other airlines. Continental continues to deliver excellent service, United will leapfrog AA's "next generation" Business Class soon along with life-flat bed seats/huge meals/on demand IFE on its p.s. transcon service, and Delta seems to be growing into just about every market on earth -- for better or worse -- and in some places where AA should be heartily defending its turf (I'm thinking Roaton, Fort de France, LAX, JFK, etc.). Virtually every airline in America has brand new airplanes on order, many new-generation (including 787s), and what is AA doing? They're giving up 25 757s (understandably, they're non-standard ex-TWA) that will be used against them across the Atlantic and in Latin America by Delta and replacing them with ... drum roll please ... three 737-800s in 2009, that will be used to replace a few old MD80s.

AA has to strike a balance between rebuilding their shattered balance sheet and reinvesting in future growth, and I fully recognize that, but the balance they have struck this far is just not going to work long-term if all of their competitors, with wiped-clean balance sheets and wiped-out suppliers and union contracts, are spending capital like crazy on new planes, new facilities, new markets, better service, etc.

Quoting QQflyboy (Thread starter):
And, one of the three lavs is being removed.

Do you have any idea what is going to go in the place of one of the lavatories?

Quoting QQflyboy (Thread starter):
The entire 777 retrofit project for all aircraft will be complete by May 2008.

Any word on how the 763 mods are going?


User currently offlineSlovacek747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6536 times:

This stupid move just makes me want AA to just go under. I freakin 3rd grader would have more common sense than the people running this show. UPGRADE THE WHOLE PLAN TO AVOD AND MAKE THE CUSTOMERS HAPPY AND WANT TO FLY WITH YOU!

Slovacek747


User currently offlineTonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1032 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6517 times:

Is that 757 also getting new F seats or they are just getting new Y seats?

Thanks,
Tony


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6474 times:

well, when you think about it, they are about on par with CO for upgrading IFE, though CO will, I'm sure, have a better system when all is said and done. NW's new system on the A330's surely puts this to shame, DL is in the middle of upgrades. UA's system is nothing to write home about, so while AA isn't going state of the art, they aren't completely outside the pack here. Obviously I think they should go state of the art, but their bean counters disagree.


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineKevi747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1058 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6456 times:

Quoting QQflyboy (Thread starter):
The bulk head seats in business class will be equipped with airbelts. They are seat belts with built in airbags that inflate automatically based on deceleration forces. Rather interesting.

Cool! But I wonder why the rest of the seats won't get them.  confused 

Quoting QQflyboy (Thread starter):
For AA F/As: If you've seen the Special Briefing, did you notice in the picture with the new j-class seats two seats in the background?

Yes, and I bet you're right. They had the comforters and first class pillows sitting on them. They look pretty cool. I thought they were going to be the blue type seats that we have on the 737's, but it looks more like a fresh update of the old 757 seats.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
At some point, you have to sh*t or get off the pot, for lack of a better phrase. These ridiculous piece-meal changes that continually leave AA just one step behind where their competitors were -- 5 years earlier -- are pathetic.

Yikes, you used to be our biggest cheerleader. Sorry you're not impressed. But our passengers are usually very happy. Sometimes I want to stop reading posts in this website because it's always so doom and gloom for us, but then I actually get on one of our planes and feel much better. I feel confident we're doing just fine.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
AA thinks they're pulling a fast one by only redoing the 763 cabins with new interiors, overhead bins, etc. back to the mid-cabin galley/lavs in Y, and thinks that their customers aren't smart enough to notice that they can only get "near on demand" IFE

I would argue that we are offering a better product for those who are willing/able to pay for it. AA's been operating for the past 4 or 5 years under the assumption that the majority of coach passengers buy tickets solely based on price and not on the amenities offered in-flight. I think they're right.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
Do you have any idea what is going to go in the place of one of the lavatories?

From the diagram it looks like they will keep the smaller coat closet, add a much larger coat closet, and add video control closet.

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 6):
Is that 757 also getting new F seats or they are just getting new Y seats?

They're getting new F and Y seats.



"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6440 times:

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 8):
Yikes, you used to be our biggest cheerleader.

I call 'em as I see 'em.

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 8):
But our passengers are usually very happy.

I am glad to hear that, as that is what matters most in the end, not what we debate here on A.net.

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 8):
Sometimes I want to stop reading posts in this website because it's always so doom and gloom for us, but then I actually get on one of our planes and feel much better. I feel confident we're doing just fine.

Make no mistake about my point: I think AA is generally going okay, and generally going in the right direction. I simply fear that while AA (very prudently and smartly) finds its way through the mess that was inflicted on it by 9/11 and the fuel price spike, and ensuing disastrous impact on the balance sheet, the company is losing sight of long-term competitiveness.

I would say this: in the airline industry, I believe that beyond the obvious focus on fuel prices, fare buckets, and schedule punctuality, another critical component for long-term success is palpable, future-oriented dynamism. Some airlines have it, some don't. Southwest, has dynamism. Delta, at least by the looks of it, for now, has a new-found dynamism. American, doesn't. It's just not a dynamic company anymore, the way it used to be. There is no more innovation, no more creativity, no more passion. There is definitely a flight from A to B. Definitely a consistent product and fairly consistent service (depending on the flight attendants, mostly). But there is definitely not dynamism. There is no buzz about new airplanes, new routes or markets, expanded service, upgraded amenities, etc. Instead there is replacing the 757 Y seats 10 years after it should have been done, giving 777 passengers "near on demand" IFE, huge marketing about an "industry-leading Business Class" seat when the only real innovation in it is a tray table that is split into two parts. Perhaps I'm just disillusioned, but I truly believe that if AA wants to remain competitive in the long-term, they are going to have to get that dynamism back. They can't keep shrinking the fleet, retreating from more markets, handing over more of their capacity to low-fare carriers or, even more troublingly, to Delta or United or Continental. That just isn't going to work long-term.

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 8):
AA's been operating for the past 4 or 5 years under the assumption that the majority of coach passengers buy tickets solely based on price and not on the amenities offered in-flight.

No doubt about it -- price and price alone is definitely what drives the vast majority of Y passengers' booking decisions these days.

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 8):
I think they're right.

They are right, and I'm not disputing that.

However, everyone else (including Continental, Delta, United, etc., to say nothing of foreign airlines) also know that they're right. And those airlines are staying quite competitive on price plus offering better, more consistent, service. Due largely to those airlines' (sans CO) ability to extract huge concessions from labor unions and screw their suppliers and creditors through bankruptcy, they now have more flexibility to invest capital in better service, etc., and still charge the same fare as AA. That should be very troubling to AA.

It appears that (some) managers at AA are being fooled by high load factors into thinking that these ridiculous cuts AA has made to basic customer service and product are acceptable to customers. In reality, AA's planes are jam packed because demand is larger than ever, AA keeps pulling more and more seats out of the market, and competitors literally cannot put planes into the air fast enough to steal AA's market share. Just because AA's flights to Hawaii are sold-out doesn't mean that passengers find it okay to be served a $5 turkey wrap for a meal on a 9-hour flight. That is just deplorable. It means that AA's customers have no other choice but AA -- and I have been told as much by oh so many current and former AA frequent flyers, many of whom feel -- just like me -- that the lack of dynamism, passion and common sense that used to define and inform AA's professional service and distinguish it as an undisputed leader in the industry, is now bringing the airline down.

Sad.


User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2296 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6280 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
AA should be heartily defending its turf

Not to hijack my own thread, but a lot of us at AA have wondered why we're not growing, especially on the international stage. Yes, additional aircraft is the obvious problem, however, staffing them is the big issue. When AA announced a week or so ago 200 flight attendants were being recalled, including some TWAers, that was very surprising. Why? We're dumping those former TWA 757s this year (last to go in September) yet we STILL need more flight attendants. We are so understaffed that dropping 20 +/- aircraft from the fleet still isn't enough to meet staffing needs.

AA tried to the bitter end to prevent recalls, and for that, we've suffered on the growth side. It kills me that DL is going to use those 757s we're getting rid of to go forward with the plans AA announced to us two years ago: transatlantic expansion out of JFK and expansion from MIA into northern Brazil. I know those 757s are their own fleet type, essentially, because of their differences with AA's 757s, but we could have made them work well as their own fleet by flying them transatlantic instead of mixing them in with regular 757 service. If we had concentrated them in two cities (JFK/MIA) like the Airbus, it could have been much more efficient and less costly to operate.

I do believe big things are on the horizon for AA, in terms of aircraft orders, but agree with you Commavia, we need to remain innovative. And yes, there is money in that. I guess for now, it's finding the right balance.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineTonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1032 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6117 times:

What are the new 757s seats in F going to look like? Just like the ones in the MD80s?

User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2296 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5967 times:

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 11):
What are the new 757s seats in F going to look like? Just like the ones in the MD80s?

If what we saw in the picture is indeed the new 757 seat, it is kind of a creamy beige leather. Very different than anything onboard our aircraft so far. They really looked quite nice and will go along way to upgrading the 757's first class cabin. I'll try to find out more.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineKevi747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1058 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5942 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 8):
Yikes, you used to be our biggest cheerleader.

I call 'em as I see 'em.

Fair enough, I'm just sorry we've lost your favor. I always looked forward to your posts. Maybe "fan" would have been a better word than "cheerleader".  Wink

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
another critical component for long-term success is palpable, future-oriented dynamism. Some airlines have it, some don't. Southwest, has dynamism. Delta, at least by the looks of it, for now, has a new-found dynamism.

But it doesn't seem to make that big of a difference to the passengers, since both of those companies are dynamic and one is ranked first and the other last in customer satisfaction. And I thought that was what we were talking about.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...articles/0515biz-airlines0515.html

And it's kind of telling that the company with the most new, flashy features is ranked at the bottom, while the company who offers very little in terms of in-flight amenities outranks all of us simply for offering consistently low-fares for no-frills coach class travel. Obviously Southwest has figured out a winning formula, and imitation is the best form of flattery.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
It's just not a dynamic company anymore, the way it used to be.

But there's also a time to be more conservative. And I can't think of a better time than the past few years. These announcements may not blow any a.netters out of the water but I know the passengers will welcome them. And I have a feeling there is more to come. We're coming along, just very cautiously.

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 11):
What are the new 757s seats in F going to look like? Just like the ones in the MD80s?

Well, assuming that what we're seeing in the background of those photos are the actual seats they look more similar to the old 757 F seats. They are a much lighter shade of beige, almost off-white and have a built in adjustable headrest.



"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5926 times:

Quoting WCS (Reply 2):
Once you had tasted IFE like the one on KL A330 (and I presume 777), the "almost on demand" looks like totally "has been".

I love the new KL system.

That said, I really don't think IFE drives a lot of business. Sure, some people care, and I won't say I haven't missed it since moving my business to AA -- but at the same time, it's not a huge deal.

Steve


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5859 times:

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 13):
But there's also a time to be more conservative.

Right you are, and I am fully understand that. AA has been very cautious, and very conservative, for the last few years since 9/11. And it has served them well. While virtually every other legacy competitors has used bankruptcy to exact huge concessions from labor, creditors, suppliers, vendors, etc., whittle down their long-term debt and (in some cases) foist pension obligations off on the government, AA has been able to prudently cut net debt by nearly 20% in just the last year alone, continue fully funding their pension obligations each year, and still amassing the largest cash cushion in the industry. That is extremely impressive, by any measure.

However, I fear that while the time to be conservative is still here at AA, the time to innovate, expand and grow has arrived for every one of AA's competitors. Again, all of these little, miniscule, embarrassing service changes that really aren't doing anything but bring AA back up to circa 2000 service level standards (or in some cases, even worse) don't stand up too well to excellent new services and amenities from the likes of Delta, United, etc. And that's to say nothing about the incredible expansion going on at just about every one of AA's competitors, where they are moving into AA markets, stealing AA's historic leading market share, and poaching AA's customers. Look at how AA is doing in the Chicago-Northeast markets, in the Caribbean (where Delta is flying just about everywhere AA is not), in New York where everyone seems to be pouring in capacity except AA. I recognize that AA is being prudent -- some of the expansion moves that Delta, JetBlue and others are making are either: a) incredibly foolhardy and stupid, or b) out of desperation. But either way, if Delta, JetBlue, United, etc., etc., can get their new, expanding network to stick in even 1/5 of the new places they are adding capacity, then they are going to be eating up AA's market left and right.

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 13):
These announcements may not blow any a.netters out of the water but I know the passengers will welcome them. And I have a feeling there is more to come. We're coming along, just very cautiously.

If more is to come, then that is fantastic. But AA has got to stop this ridiculous crap about acting as if they are reinventing flying just because they are giving customers amenities that competitors have been offering for 10 years. AA can start by: retroffiting, all, not just half, of their 763 cabins with the new interiors, giving all 777 (and--gasp!--maybe even 767 and/or 757) passengers real AVOD, serving actual food (even if at an additional price) on 9-hr flights to Hawaii, giving revenue passengers in F/J normal portion sizes on long flights, installing wifi on aircraft, etc. Those are things that would actually begin to bring AA back to the standard that I (and many others) expect of it. And the sad thing is, that all of those things -- complete, from beginning to end -- would probably cost AA less than $150 million total. Especially if they are going to insist on continuing to fly some of their aircraft for years more to come (757s, 767s, etc.), I'd say it would be an investment well worth making.


User currently offlineCollin260 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5839 times:

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 3):

The new business class seats will feature a 10.6" screen, first 8.4" (the current Flagship Suite monitor).

Why are the business screens larger than the first screens?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
Just because AA's flights to Hawaii are sold-out doesn't mean that passengers find it okay to be served a $5 turkey wrap for a meal on a 9-hour flight.

Then those passengers should have flown first class!



The approximate flight time today will be 6 hours in First Class and 12 hours in Economy.
User currently offlineWCS From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 255 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5801 times:

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 14):
love the new KL system.

That said, I really don't think IFE drives a lot of business. Sure, some people care, and I won't say I haven't missed it since moving my business to AA -- but at the same time, it's not a huge deal.

Steve

Hi Steve,
I tend to agree: IFE is not the key factor for most of PAX. And as I said, I'm not a "ultra" when it's time to stress the IFE. But it's a matter of leadership. Why the hell do AA update Y cabin with something almost "as been"? While I do not know the price difference between AVOD and almost AVOD, I don't think it's that huge. It's all about the overall experience. To give you an example, I rather fly KL 777's or A330's rather than AF ones, even if I have to connect in AMS instead of CDG (depending of the final destination in the US).

One more time, not a big deal but quite disappointing.



FLY SKYTEAM JETS
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20791 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5737 times:

Quoting Collin260 (Reply 16):
Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):Just because AA's flights to Hawaii are sold-out doesn't mean that passengers find it okay to be served a $5 turkey wrap for a meal on a 9-hour flight.

Then those passengers should have flown first class!

To get a free turkey wrap? LOL. I agree that it's beyond the pale to expect a planeload of passengers departing at 9am on a 9+ hour flight to pack picnic lunches, or depend upon there being enough BOB onboard, that for many is a trip of a lifetime. They don't need to return to the days when UA served coach passengers full meals on monkeypod trays, but a route like ORD-HNL is a chance for them to showcase their best in small ways, and AA is frittering away that opportunity. Mai tais can be sold, and a tropical-themed salad or something similar could be offered without breaking the bank. If I'm reading Commavia correctly, flights are so full across the board that a $5 or $10 difference in fare to help defer the cost of a few small extras isn't going to leave them with an empty plane, simply because the other airlines are packed to near capacity as well and people will buy the seats that are open if they want to get where they're going.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
in New York where everyone seems to be pouring in capacity except AA

Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that AA was tossing a daily 757 from JFK to nearly every airport on the west coast? It didn't last very long at all. AA keeps making a go at the west coast, then pulling back. Out of PDX, we don't even have a red-eye to DFW any longer as of last December. It's confounding.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5694 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that AA was tossing a daily 757 from JFK to nearly every airport on the west coast?

Hardly. They had two daily 757s to ONT and OAK, and then later two daily 757s to LGB, all to compete with B6. At one time or another, a summer-only second daily JFK-SEA and a daily JFK-PHX turn were also in there. Luckily, AA came to their senses are realized that not only was it impossible to compete on price with B6, which has about half the unit operating costs, but it also doesn't make sense for AA to poach from itself -- namely, LAX is actually an extremely convenient, and popular, destination in and of itself and what AA ultimately found is that most of their customers actually did want to go to LAX.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
AA keeps making a go at the west coast, then pulling back. Out of PDX, we don't even have a red-eye to DFW any longer as of last December. It's confounding.

I'm not talking about JFK-West Coast. AA has the important markets -- LAX, SFO, SAN and SEA -- covered, and plus LAS starting in a few months. My issue is with other markets where AA can, and should, compete, but can't because they continue to pull down capacity while everyone else adds. Adding 2-3x/week 757s in-season to SKB and SLU are encouraging signs, but more is needed. More Europe, more Latin America. I know these markets are approaching saturation, but I believe AA could be a viable competitor in many markets if it just had the resources to invest.


User currently offlineKevi747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1058 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
But AA has got to stop this ridiculous crap about acting as if they are reinventing flying just because they are giving customers amenities that competitors have been offering for 10 years.

I don't remember reading anything that said we were reinventing flying. What would you have them do? Not announce the upgrades? Not make them sound like improvements? They're just marketing the investments.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
AA can start by: retroffiting, all, not just half, of their 763 cabins with the new interiors, giving all 777 (and--gasp!--maybe even 767 and/or 757) passengers real AVOD,

That takes lots of money. I'm not sure how accurate your estimate is, but even $150 million is a lot. And again, why would they do that when people are still paying good money to fly without AVOD?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
serving actual food (even if at an additional price) on 9-hr flights to Hawaii,

I would tend to agree with you on that, but those flights are full. So, yet again, it doesn't seem to matter what you offer onboard as long as the flight is cheap enough. It would be very nice if they served food on those flights, but AA isn't in business to do favors for people (its employees included). It's in business to make money. People have clearly spoken with their wallets as to what is important to them when purchasing an airline ticket. If that changes, trust me, AA will adapt.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
And that's to say nothing about the incredible expansion going on at just about every one of AA's competitors, where they are moving into AA markets, stealing AA's historic leading market share, and poaching AA's customers.

The huge elephant in the room on that one is the buyout of TWA. That airline should have been left to die on its own, but of course hindsight is 20/20. Look for some major hiring/expansion announcements around this time next year. Hopefully we can all put that mess behind us once the recall list has been cleared.



"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
User currently offlineCollin260 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5618 times:

Hey Commavia,
Why do you hate AA so much?



The approximate flight time today will be 6 hours in First Class and 12 hours in Economy.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20791 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5608 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
Hardly. They had two daily 757s to ONT and OAK, and then later two daily 757s to LGB, all to compete with B6. At one time or another, a summer-only second daily JFK-SEA and a daily JFK-PHX turn were also in there.

I seem to recall JFK-SJC and JFK-SNA in there as well.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5577 times:

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 20):
I don't remember reading anything that said we were reinventing flying.

I don't have a link, but I remember reading an article quoting a European Marketing Manager for AA saying (essentially) that the next-generation Business Class seats were "industry-leading," "ahead of the curve," and would "put AA on an equal footing with European competitors." Now, to anyone who has ever flown any airline other than AA, I think we all know that is absolutely laughable. AA's upgrades, at best, put AA's Business Class at about the spot where European carriers' J cabins were aboute 5-7 years ago -- at best.

And that's fine. I fully understand that AA knows it will never be able to command the yield premium that BA or AF does, and that their top-tier FFs require upgrades more than lie-flat J seats. But again, if you are going to give customers a good (but not great) product, don't treat them like idiots and say that it is industry-leading.

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 20):
What would you have them do? Not announce the upgrades? Not make them sound like improvements? They're just marketing the investments.

I'd have them respect their customers and not treat them like morons who don't see right through the "marketing." If you are adding things to your product, that is great and I encourage it, but it just rings so hollow (and almost comical) when customers see what the huge "improvements" entail.

People recognize that the beautiful new cabin interiors on the 763s only go as far back as the mid-cabin lavs and galley, and it looks cheap. F and J passengers recognize that the meals keep getting smaller, and they need the flight attendants to ration them extra salt and pepper from the little paper packets, and it looks cheap. People know that just because AA's new Business Class seat has a tray table with two parts that fold down and meet in the middle, it's not exactly "industry leading," and it looks cheap.

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 20):
why would they do that when people are still paying good money to fly without AVOD?

Because that is what vision is about. People could have said to Crandall and Plaskett back in '80 "why give people free trips for their loyalty if they are still loyal to us and pay us big bucks without it?" People could have asked BA and Singapore "why give people in premium cabins lie-flat beds when they pay for First Class anyway?" People could have asked Continental, "why fly those narrow 757s to smaller European cities when people are already willing to just buy a codeshared seat on AF or KL?"

Sometimes you have to see beyond the here and now.

It is clear to me that if AA decides that they want to offer a commodity product, then all they'll ever be able to get for Y is a commodity price. And that's fine, except for the fact that everyone else (Delta, Northwest, United, USAirways, etc.) -- because of the warm fuzzies of bankruptcy -- will be able to offer a better product (AVOD IFE, real meals on long flights, mp3 hook-ups, etc.) at the same commodity price.

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 20):
So, yet again, it doesn't seem to matter what you offer onboard as long as the flight is cheap enough.

With due respect, I think this is exactly the flawed thinking that is going to cost AA dearly in the future if it doesn't change. AA cannot go on assuming that just because flights are full now, and yields are up now, and they're making some profits now, that their customers are satisfied, nor that their success will last. Flights are full and yields are up for one reason and one reason only: supply and demand. Air travel demand is at an all-time high and the industry's capacity has not been able to keep up because: a) airlines like AA keep taking more and more seats out of the market, and b) almost everyone else besides AA cannot get aircraft from Boeing and/or Airbus fast enough.

I cannot tell you how many very valuable top-tier AA FFs I know who basically now fly on AA because they have no other choice, or because they still want to burn their miles or must purchase based on the corporate account. They are fed up with careless flight attendants with an attitude (no offense to the good ones out there, but I think we all know what I mean), so-so (at best) onboard service that keeps getting changed based on AA testing what it can and cannot get away with cutting, and continued retraction from more and more markets where flights are either shifted to Eagle or just ended altogether, where JetBlue, Delta, etc. just keep adding, adding, adding in more and more places.

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 20):
The huge elephant in the room on that one is the buyout of TWA.

Buying TWA six years ago has nothing to do with not meeting competition head-on today.

Quoting Collin260 (Reply 21):
Hey Commavia, Why do you hate AA so much?

If you have followed any of my posts on A.net over the last two years athat I have been a member, you would no that I absolutely do not hate AA, or any airline. Indeed, AA is a company I have enormous and profound respect for, which is part of the reason that I am disappointed by some of the decisions that have been made by the company in the recent past. Make no mistake about it: I don't "hate" AA -- or any airline for that matter -- in the slightest.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5573 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
I seem to recall JFK-SJC and JFK-SNA in there as well.

Indeed, my mistake. JFK-SJC operated from 1999 up until about 2002 or 2003, when JetBlue entered the route. (At one point in 2000-2001, AA was operating 3x daily service on the route including one flight with a 3-class 762. My how times of changed!) As for JFK-SNA, I know that AA announced the route, but I'm not sure if it ever operated. If it did, it was only for a matter of months.


25 Post contains images Kevi747 : He doesn't. Or didn't used to at least. He's very smart and somehow has access to loads of information about American Airlines. In fact, his signatur
26 MAH4546 : JFK-SNA lasted a little more than a year. The route that didn't start was JFK-ONT. Just because you speak the truth about an airline doesn't mean one
27 Kevi747 : But that's up for the customer to decide. If they don't feel that the improvements warrant their continued business they will travel with another car
28 Commavia : Yes, they are. The marketplace will set standards, of course, but we are operating in a very skewed marketplace right now. Competitors are beniffitin
29 NYCAAer : Congratulations, Commavia, on your reality check! I often wondered what kind of anti-depressants or other medication you were on when you defended AA
30 Post contains images Kevi747 : No, they're not. Well, we'll have to wait and see, but I am not losing any sleep right now. As pissed as I can get at our senior management sometimes
31 ToTheStars : Those people that you just can't wait to clear off the recall list have faces and names, and they are AA flight attendants and fellow union members.[
32 Commavia : The people on FlyerTalk are not "airline nerds." They are Plats and Exec Plats -- many of them probably the people you serve every day. And many of t
33 Post contains images QQflyboy : Ok, I promise I am not taking sides here. I have thus far enjoyed reading the differing opinions between Kevi747 and Commavia. You both know I, too, a
34 Post contains links and images QQflyboy : I meant to answer this before and forgot. The first screens are smaller because the Flagship Suite is an existing product developed several years ago
35 LMP737 : AA is finally starting to increase the number of recalls on the M&E side. Which is good because with all these improvement projects coming down the l
36 Thebry : In this age of video iPods, PlayStation Portables and the like, I really don't think IFE is as important as it used to be. Just as passengers are gro
37 BigGSFO : I agree with MAH and Commavia and I too, love AA and respect the airline to the fullest. However as I see it, AA's current stangnacy rests on the sho
38 MAH4546 : The sad thing is that AA has been working on expansion plans. They have some great ideas to expand upon, especially out of MIA, JFK, and DFW. They ju
39 Commavia : Or, if AA wants to keep MQ flying within the current MQ system, and not bring Connection out into the other hubs besides STL, they could always just
40 Daron4000 : The problem with this theory is that there is also an increase of security, with the extreme liquid bans as a great example. At LHR, a businessman ma
41 Thebry : If a guy has trouble getting an ultra portable video iPod or PlayStation portable into a carry-on bag, then he's got other issues more important to w
42 Cslusarc : I'm now thinking that AA has entered a rut, and if things progress down the current path, it will have extreme difficulty exiting that rut. Right now
43 Halls120 : The lack of IFE on a short domestic flight is of no consequence to me. I actually look forward to the CBS "Eye on American" shorts. But on a long ove
44 Kevi747 : The Platinums and Executive Platinums I shuttle back and forth between JFK to LHR are big time movers and shakers. They are always busy and I really
45 Qqflyboy : Ok, I've been released from the Charm Farm for another year. I tried to get more info on the new 757 first class seat, but sadly, was unable to come u
46 MoMan : I've flown 30 segements this year so far on AA, with 8 scheduled in the next two weeks, I'm also a member of FT. I was recently asked why I chose AA
47 Alitalia744 : It's flight attendants like you that made me switch away from AA back in 2002.
48 AA767400 : Please tell me what part of what he wrote makes you feel that way? All he said was that he does not see the flyertalk crowd on his flights. And the o
49 Alitalia744 : PM me if you wanna get into it. I'm not gonna get into a bash-fest over something. If you disagree with my opinion, fine, but it is my opinion. Never
50 AA767400 : If you are going to make an opinion about something, than give a reason. If someone disagrees with that opinion than fine, but at least give some deb
51 Alitalia744 : AA767400 - a couple of reasons but not limited to F/As alone. I think the nail on the head was an F/A on a flight from LGA-DFW who was selling "screw
52 Halls120 : I fly AA, DL, UA and US. F/A's are NOT all the same, in my opinion. At the bottom are US F/A's. When they are in action, which is generally infrequen
53 AA767400 : I agree. It begins to become too much, and that is going way over the top. I have worked with Kevin before and he is not that type of person. I think
54 AA767400 : That is because those Flight Attendants were having a hard time during each airline's troubles. Now that they are out of bankruptcy they value their
55 AeroWesty : If you want to fly anywhere on AA from PDX past 2:30pm now, you have to fly AS to SEA, SFO or LAX first, or wait 18 hours for the next flight. I neve
56 Xkorpyoh : Wow.. i am still in shock to hear these comments from Commavia and MAh4546. I have been boycotting AA for several years because of those reasons, aft
57 Alitalia744 : Unfortunately, a few bad apples end up representing the entire tree if you know what I mean. A bad experience with a company, based on a few F/As bec
58 MAH4546 : Just to add that while I totally disagree with the pathetic way AA is being ran, I fly AA every 2-3 weeks (I'll be flying MIA-ORD tomorrow) and I sti
59 AA767400 : Ok, but Kevin did not make any negative comments. Just because he does not agree with another person makes it a negative comment? What is an off duty
60 Jacobin777 : Being a "mid-level" Platinum Flyer for the past 1/2 decade or so (fly around 60-75k miles/year on AA), I've noticed more people on AA than any other a
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