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Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2702 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14983 times:

I was wondering why the 757 was not popular with European national carriers? I mean, AFAIK only BA and IB fly them! why?
ps: I am not talking about charter airlines


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
78 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJamesJimlb From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14957 times:

i don't know but a very good question i'll do some research and try to get an answer.


The sky is no longer the limit, but the mere minimum
User currently offlineYULYMX From Canada, joined May 2006, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14901 times:

Would guess: Europe is smaller than North America no need for a 5-6 hours flight type of plane carring 180 pax like we use in the USA-

A320 and B737 was enough to deliver the need?

My 2 cents

[Edited 2007-05-17 15:11:31]

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7077 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14868 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I was wondering why the 757 was not popular with European national carriers? I mean, AFAIK only BA and IB fly them! why?
ps: I am not talking about charter airlines

Swissair, Sabena, KLM, LH and AF were using the A310 and hence had no need for the 757.
P.S.
Finnair is another 757 operator that has to be mentioned.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2702 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14819 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
Finnair is another 757 operator that has to be mentioned.

you are right



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User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14819 times:

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 2):
Would guess: Europe is smaller than North America no need for a 5-6 hours flight type of plane like we use in the USA-

A320 and B737 was enough to deliver the need?

Swissair used to fly from GVA and ZRH to LHR with A310-200s. Air France (6), KLM (10), Lufthansa (12), Sabena (2) were among the other regular European carriers operating the Airbus in Europe. Not to speak of the A300B4 operators. IIRC, IB was a late comer for the B757 while BA replaced its Tridents with it, and somehow filed a gap between the TriStars and the B737s.


User currently offlineBaexecutive From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14799 times:

Iberia, Icelandair and L'Avion are also operators of the B757 in Europe

Dunno if Greenlandair counts as its not geographically in Europe but they use the B757


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4341 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14766 times:

The typical US continental routes needed slightly bigger airplanes then the European networks. That's also a reason the 727 was so popular in the USA but not as much in Europe.
In the late 1970s when airlines started to think about their 1985-2000 fleets, the backbone of most European airlines seated around 110 pax; KLM, Swissair, Iberia, Alitalia, SAS (DC-9), Air France (Caravelle) , Lufthansa (737) etc while all the US airlines had aircraft seating around 160 as backbone, all had 727s, TWA and American also 707s, UAL and DL also DC-8s, all of which could be replaced by 757s.
In the meantime, frequency in the US also became more important, and both in Europa and the US the 737 and A-320 is the typical aircraft now for flights under 5 hours.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineCV580Freak From Bahrain, joined Jul 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14722 times:

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 6):
Dunno if Greenlandair counts as its not geographically in Europe but they use the B757

Just about  Smile


Regions and territories: Greenland

Greenland is the world's largest island. Formerly a province of Denmark, it gained the status of an autonomous Danish dependent territory with limited self-government as well as its own parliament in 1979.

DHL also operate about 34 B757F's



One day you are the pigeon, the next the statue ...
User currently offlineRB211 From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 632 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14648 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
was wondering why the 757 was not popular with European national carriers? I mean, AFAIK only BA and IB fly them! why?
ps: I am not talking about charter airlines

Funny I didn't really notice it until you brought it up. The 757 was supposed to be a replacement for the 727. BA ferried some of theirs over here to BFM (Mobile Aerospace Engineering) for freighter conversion to be delivered to DHL. I guess it's one of those unsolved mysteries like why is it all of a sudden that they're in demand again.



Airline photography. Whether they're fully clothed, butt naked, having issues or confused I'm taking pictures!!
User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14591 times:

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 6):

Don't forget BA!



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14523 times:

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 6):
Iberia



Quoting AA777223 (Reply 10):
Don't forget BA!



Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I mean, AFAIK only BA and IB fly them!

 wink 

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 6):
Dunno if Greenlandair counts as its not geographically in Europe but they use the B757

Nowadays named Air Greenland.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I was wondering why the 757 was not popular with European national carriers?

Do you mean when the aircraft was introduced back then in the '80s and that no other major European ordered it then, or in general ? Do you include cargo fleets in your question ?


User currently offline6YJJK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14522 times:

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 2):
Would guess: Europe is smaller than North America no need for a 5-6 hours flight type of plane carring 180 pax

BA, Finnair, Iberia (and Icelandair, maybe) - interesting that these are all on the "edges" of Europe. I wondered whether somewhere more central might not have been able to use them economically without the long cross-Europe flights.

But BA use them on tiny intra-UK hops. Are they the exception that proves the rule?


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14464 times:

When the 757 was introduced in the mid-1980s (its primary mission was a 727-200 replacement), it did not gather much interest from European scheduled/flag carriers......European carriers replaced their early 727 and 72S aircraft with 737s and the then-new A320 by passing the 757. The Europeans airlines in most cases simply did not need a 200 seat aircraft with US transcontinental range. Its also important to note that the 757, one of the most amazing and versatile airplanes ever produced, sold quite slowly at the outset (BA and EA's launch orders were the only serious orders on Boeing's books for the type for many many years) and when the 757 did gain popularity, it was primarily a ""US thing"" with the majority of 757s being sold to US carriers.

As noted, BA was a large 757 operator and it continues to operate some newer build examples, IB has had a love/hate relationship with the 757.....it loves the versatility and economics of the type but it simply does not fit into IB's Airbus-focused fleet plans, etc. Many EU and UK charter carriers utilize the 757 due to its economics and versaility: its one of the few airplanes that a charter carrier can fly from Europe to the US or the Caribbean on one day of the week and then economically and effectively use on a flight to Mallora or the Canaries on another day of the week.

As mentoned above, several European airlines tried using larger A300s and A310s on intra-European routes....it did not work out very well for most of the airlines as the airlines realized that most high-demand segments need capacity AND frequency. Airlines like KLM, SAS, AF and Swissair quickly replaced most of their widebody intra-European services with smaller aircraft as soon as practical.

Often, there are posts that ask why neither Boeing or Airbus as building a direct successor to the A300/A310/762A/757.....here is the answer: on route up to 3000 miles, most airlines now prefer to offer more frequent service with smaller airplanes; thus, the more capable variants of the 737NG and A32X now fly many routes once flown by the 757 and other types mentioned. When the next generation narrow body airplanes are developed by B and A, we will likely see variants that can more directly replace the 757.


User currently offlineUSADreamliner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14361 times:

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 2):
Would guess: Europe is smaller than North America no need for a 5-6 hours flight type of plane carring 180 pax like we use in the USA-

So...if they don't needed the 757, why the A300/310 flying for Lufthansa, Alitalia, Air France, Iberia, Swissair, KLM, Austrian, Olympic..?


User currently offlineYULYMX From Canada, joined May 2006, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14332 times:

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 14):

Don't know? to fly to Morocco, Aleria, Spain?? more Cargo? to help Airbus in those days???


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11668 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14315 times:

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 14):
So...if they don't needed the 757, why the A300/310 flying for Lufthansa, Alitalia, Air France, Iberia, Swissair, KLM, Austrian, Olympic..?

Because they already had the A300 and A310, they didn't need to add the 757 to their fleets.

I think also you have to remember the large amount of charter airlines who operate the 757 within Europe;

Air Finland
Airtours
Asturias
Belair
Condor
First Choice
Fly Globespan
LTU/LTE
Monarch
Thomas Cook
ThomsonFly
Zoom

etc, etc...


Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14235 times:

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 14):
So...if they don't needed the 757, why the A300/310 flying for Lufthansa, Alitalia, Air France, Iberia, Swissair, KLM, Austrian, Olympic..?

Austrian got four A310-300 that were essentially used for long-haul flights as they were the airline's first widebody aircraft. They were used then on flight to JFK, NRT, CPH-ORD and perhaps JNB, but I'm not sure about that.

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 15):
Don't know? to fly to Morocco, Aleria, Spain?? more Cargo? to help Airbus in those days???

If you search in the data base, you'll find many pictures of major European airlines flying into LHR with A300s, A310s, DC-10s, B767s... Before EuroStar, the London-Paris line was the busiest in the world.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 16):
Air Finland
Airtours
Asturias
Belair
Condor
First Choice
Fly Globespan
LTU/LTE
Monarch
Thomas Cook
ThomsonFly
Zoom

Many of these are charter airlines, while LY777 asked for national airlines. The Zoom B757 is a member of the Canadian airline fleet.

Regards


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2702 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14224 times:

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 11):
Do you mean when the aircraft was introduced back then in the '80s and that no other major European ordered it then, or in general ? Do you include cargo fleets in your question ?

I speak in general, and I don't include cargo fleet.

by the way, the 787 is having the same fate as the 757 concerning National European airlines. Only LOT has ordered the 787 so far!!!



אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14211 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
by the way, the 787 is having the same fate as the 757 concerning National European airlines.

I think that most agree that this situation will change in the coming years!!! In any case, the 787 is off to a far better start than the 757 had many years ago.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11668 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14166 times:

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 17):
Many of these are charter airlines, while LY777 asked for national airlines. The Zoom B757 is a member of the Canadian airline fleet.

Yes, but with comments pointing out that the B757 may have not been ideally suited for European operations, it is worth qualifying that many airlines, whatever their orientation, do utilise it.



Dan Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineSkyyMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14133 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
Finnair is another 757 operator that has to be mentioned.

Didn't/doesn't (not sure if they still have them) AY use their's mainly for charters? Seems lots of charter carriers in Europe like them, I do agree, most scheduled carriers opted for smaller a/c probably due to shorter stages.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7077 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14097 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
by the way, the 787 is having the same fate as the 757 concerning National European airlines. Only LOT has ordered the 787 so far!!!

and like the 757 it has been ordered by many European charter airlines......



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineUpperDeck79 From Finland, joined Feb 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14082 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
Finnair is another 757 operator that has to be mentioned.

Only Finnair Leisure Flights devision. Although, sometimes the scheduled division borrows one of them and sometimes the leisure division borrows an A32x from the scheduled one.



AY and ANA rock!
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2702 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14051 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
by the way, the 787 is having the same fate as the 757 concerning National European airlines.

I think that most agree that this situation will change in the coming years!!!

Believe me, most National European carriers will choose the A350 over the 787: BA will be the next major customer for the A350



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25 Dutchjet : Sorry, but I dont believe you. Wait until Paris and get back to me.
26 JJJ : Actually IB mostly used them in the 'puente aéreo' MAD-BCN flights and rather short sectors like LHR.
27 Icarus75 : Not completely true I think! I've flown a lot on Air Inter between 1985 and the (sad) end of this airline that flown A300 (or may be A310). I remembe
28 Dutchjet : France domestic services were very different back then.........no competition, pre high speed trains, etc. Air Inter even ordered A330-300s for their
29 Baexecutive : It was similar in the UK, BA used to fly the 757 and 767 on the GLA/LHR route
30 Post contains images OceansWorld : That's not true. F-GMDA 030 03/1994 - 02/1997 F-GMDB 037 12/1993 - 02/1997 Stored at Chateauroux, France since 09/1996. F-GMDC 045 02/1994 - 12/1996
31 Bongodog1964 : I realise that the thread start specifically stated "not talking about charter", but IMO here in the UK the widespread use of of the 757 by charter ai
32 Boeingguy1 : ??? Surely this cant be true. I remember reading VS ordered some a few weeks ago. BA/LH are in talks with Boeing/Airbus on the 787/A350 resp.... so I
33 Dutchjet : Sorry, I did not state it correctly....meant to say the airplanes did not remain in service on those routes,etc.
34 LY777 : I hope you are right. I really would like to see the 787 in BA and AF/KLM colours!!!
35 YULWinterSkies : I guess not much need for 3-6 hours flights unlike in N Am, which are the flight durations in which the 757 is ideally made for... With one notable ex
36 787EWR : I this this is a result of the cost of a new plane, a wait and see attitude, especially since the first 550 planes are already destined for someone e
37 OceansWorld : No trouble. They were ordered (5 + 15) when Air Inter was still the only or largest carrier serving France cities. But trend changed with competition
38 RIHNOSAUR : Just wondering..(not stating as fact) is it cool to compare the 757 with the A300/310 family??? what I mean is that the later are wide bodies and see
39 Columba : The A300/A310 and 757/767-200/-300 were seen as direct competitioners.
40 RIHNOSAUR : if so, (again just curious not saying I am right) then Why would some (an airline) one want a 757 over an A310 when the A310 has much wider cross-sec
41 Dutchjet : The initial versions of the 757, the 762A, and the A312 were all designed to carry about 200 passengers on segments of up to 3500 miles. Each type ha
42 OceansWorld : Singapore has operated four A312s and four B752s side-by-side for a few years during the mid '80s, before ordering more Airbuses.
43 Airbazar : I'm not so sure that you will see many 787's operating with European colors. I think it will suffer the same fate in Europe that the 757 did. The 787
44 RIHNOSAUR : I had never thought about that ...in other words....you are suggesting that Europe has a particular strategic location which means its carriers might
45 YULWinterSkies : One can also mention AA who has the world's largest pax A300 fleet, in addition to the 752, 762ER and 763ER in large numbers.
46 Dutchjet : The 787 will be in production for many years to come........over the next ten years, European airlines will look to replace their 767s, A343s, early
47 RIHNOSAUR : which to SOME extent proves a little bit my original point which is....... These two aircraft A300/310 are NOT direct competitors of the 757....seein
48 Warren747sp : Did everyone forget Icelandic? who has almost an entire fleet of B752 and B753. W
49 Brilondon : First I would like to say that I do believe that BA will not choose the A350 because of their need for a replacement for their B757 & B767 fleets nee
50 YULWinterSkies : Read reply 35, you'll see that I did not forget and i provided my thoughts on that!
51 Dutchjet : That AA ended up with A300s is a very long story that has been told often at a.net. The very very short version is that AA and Boeing were not in agr
52 Deltaflyertoo : Please forgive me everyone for hijacking on this one note but Dutchjet brought up a good point that I always wondered about and was hoping I could ask
53 Dutchjet : Think financial terms, delivery positions, leasing terms, used aircraft, the need to expand, corporate politics, and the like.....and airlines will s
54 LTU932 : If you mean the 787-3, then you're correct, although LH is still a somewhat likely customer for it, especially for use on FRA-LHR. What about DP, ZB,
55 BMED : jet2 are starting to use them on low cost flights in europe now.
56 Notarzt : The main problem for Boeing and the 757 was the presence of the A310 which offered widebody comfort on medium-haul routes and a slightly larger capac
57 EFCar98 : I flew on an early build BA 757 in August of 1997 domestically from LHR-EDI and then returned on a B732 to LHR. Having flown on UA and AA's 757s many
58 Dutchjet : United 757s are powered by PW engines, not RR engines. UA and AA both received their first 757s in the very late 1980s, about 5 years after the first
59 Aviateur : You can ask the same question about Asian/Middle Eastern/Pacific carriers. Quick, name one that operates the 757..... SQ, no NH, no JL , no MH, no EK,
60 Dutchjet : As you pointed out, SQ operated four 752s for a short period (those airplanes went to ATA and are now with Delta).....SQ settled on the A310 for regi
61 Ncelhr : I am surprised that nobody mentioned the A321. With a similar capacity in high capacity config, Air France uses A321s. As others have said, distances
62 Flylku : Quite true. I've traveled on it from DCA-ORD, LAX-IAD, and PHL-LIS. I'm sure other A.netters have experienced equally diverse city pairs on this vene
63 Post contains images RIHNOSAUR : very well, you have brought some excellent and convincing arguments what you say makes sense, i did omit in my reasoning, that in fact there are many
64 EFCar98 : shanghai airlines? isnt that where the last 757 ln 1050 went to ? Sorry for not being clearer, I meant that the BA plane I was on had the original RR
65 Leskova : Since LH is increasingly moving to A321s and even A320s on that particular route, I continue to doubt that the A300 will see any direct replacement a
66 Airbazar : I never said _any_ airline not needing the _type_. There may be some 787's although not many, but what I really said is that by the time those A343's
67 Dutchjet : I guess that I am confused.......my reading of your posts is that the sales outlook for the 787 in Europe is not very good. And, I disagree; the 787
68 OldAeroGuy : If you compare 757 sales to A310 sales in Europe, the 757 did pretty well. Based on direct buys by major European airlines: 757: 82 A310: 74 Above nu
69 EDICHC : In the case of LHR-EDI/GLA significantly shorter, less that 400sm.
70 Varig_dc10 : BA used to operate the 757 between LHR and NCL and between LHR and MAN. I.e. 250 miles and 150 miles respetively. Last night when I arrived in NCL on
71 Post contains images Notarzt : I guess you did not read the thread originator's posting: Actually, many European carriers placed orders for the 757 - but British Airways was the on
72 OldAeroGuy : No, I read the original post correctly. In the above 82 757's, I only counted the European national airlines that made 757 original buys. These are B
73 CV990 : Hi! Regarding TP, I remember when they started to think about fleet renovation, back to mid 80's Boeing offered the 757 to replace the 727-200's that
74 Post contains images Notarzt : Well... only five major European national carriers bought either the A310 or the 757 (or 767) back in the early 1980's. Four of them ordered the A310
75 OldAeroGuy : What's strange about the concept of 82 being larger than 74? I agree some what with this conclusion. The 757 obviously met BA's needs for their intra
76 Post contains images Notarzt : Well, in this context the word 'outsold' means a higher acceptance among airline customers rather than pure number of sales. Only British Airways fou
77 Tonforty : As far as I know, BA still operate the 757 on the GLA-LHR route. I think theres one flight GLA-LHR at around 0735 and one comes back LHR-GLA in the e
78 OldAeroGuy : Then shouldn't the thread title have been "Why Weren't The A310 and 757 Popular With European Carriers?"?
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