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United Hub At SFO  
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 2918 posts, RR: 20
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 6330 times:

I did a search on here and on United.com and couldn't find a confirmation of the below. I am somewhat surprised that UAL's SFO hub isn't larger than this given that it is it's primary International hub on the West Coast. I have tried to incorporate only United and United Express operated flights. I make a total of 282 flights. I thought they were bigger than this? Can anyone confirm that I'm in the ballpark here or whether I've missed any destinations? These are based on May 22 departures.

International

FRA 1
HKG 1
ICN 1
KIX 1
LHR 2
MEX 1
NGO 1
NRT 2
PEK 1
PVG 1
PVR 1
SAL 1
SJD 1
SYD 1
TPE 1

Mainline

AUS 1
BOS 5
BUR 7 4 mainline, 3 express
BWI 1
DEN 10
DFW 2
EWR 3
HNL 3
IAD 8
IAH 1
JFK 7
KOA 2
LAX 19
LIH 1
MCO 1
OGG 2
ORD 10
PDX 7
PHL 2
PIT 1
RNO 6 2 mainline, 4 express
SAN 10
SEA 8
SLC 5 1 mainline, 4 express
SNA 6 4 mainline, 2 express
YVR 4
YYZ 1

Express

ABQ 2 Express
ACV 8 Express
BFL 3 Express
BOI 5 Express
CEC 2 Express
CIC 4 Express
COS 1 Express
EUG 6 Express
FAT 8 Express
MFR 8 Express
MOD 5 Express
MRY 7 Express
ONT 4 Express
MFR 8 Express
MOD 5 Express
MRY 7 Express
ONT 4 Express
PSP 2 Express
RDD 5 Express
RDM 3 Express
SAT 1 Express
SBA 9 Express
SBP 5 Express
SMF 7 Express
TUS 1 Express

Ted

LAS 8
PHX 4

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 6309 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Thread starter):
I am somewhat surprised that UAL's SFO hub isn't larger than this given that it is it's primary International hub on the West Coast.

SFO isn't situated geographically to take more than connecting traffic to Asia in essentially one large midday bank, connect passengers up and down the west coast, to Hawaii, and some west coasters to the east, along with servicing the somewhat sizeable O&D market. If you're flying from Seattle to the east coast, for example, SFO is several hundred miles out of your way vs. DEN or ORD. Traffic between other western cities is large enough that some of it can overfly SFO, reducing the need for too large of a hub on the coast.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6234 times:

SFO's ability to handle large volumes of arrivals, primarily due to lack of separation between parallel runways...well, it just doesn't exist. This puts a big limit on the airport's ability to handle much more than it already does, therefore hindering anyone's attempts at making SFO a large hub.

The airlines are lucky to get a 60 Average Arrival Rate out of SFO on an almost perfect day. More often than not...when there are low ceilings and/or patchy fog...that drops to a 30-45 AAR and the ground delay programs start. Without SOIA approaches, the AAR drops to even less than that. This is a big concern for many people when Virgin America* and WN start full operations out of SFO. SFO flow times can be bad enough right now without the extra volume...just imagine throwing 2 more carriers into the mix.

If SFO could manage a 60 rate all the time, it could be a pretty big hub for someone. Unfortunately, in it's current configuration, it just isn't going to happen.






* - How are we coming along on getting the IATA code in the system for Virgin America?


User currently offlineRamprat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1522 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6161 times:

United operated around 250 mainline departures a day back in the late 90's. Most of the flights were Shuttle By United. Like others have posted, when low clouds hit, delays were very common. United has handed a lot of traffic over to UAX RJ's in recent years.

User currently offlineOH-LGA From Denmark, joined Oct 1999, 1436 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5759 times:

You neglected to add the second daily SFO-FRA flight which has been operating since late April, and there are 3x additional weekly SFO-HKG frequencies as well.

The June schedule change will shake things up a little bit, with SFO-PMD inaugurating with 2 daily CRJ200 roundtrips, and an additional COS frequency (OO) and an additional EUG frequency (OO) as well. BOI will see a 737-300 on the last flight of the evening, replacing a UAX CRJ200. Upon further investigation it looks from a glance that the 737 was pulled from SFO-BUR (replaced by a CRJ200), making it one 737 and one CRJ200 RON in BUR and the BOI 737-300 operating FFOD BOI-SFO as well.

Many markets are seeing capacity and equipment adjustments, with EUG seeing a capacity increase, while SMF and RNO see minor decreases (CRJ200 -> EMB-120 on certain flights). But, with the exception of the PMD addition to the route network, nothing major seems to be on the horizon for now at least.



Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6091 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5677 times:

If I am not mistaken SFO will be losing the 3 additional weekly HKG once LAX-HKG begins. I'd think it would have stayed if UA had the a/c available.

On top of the amount of flights SFO can handle in low weather situations and the geographical position is United has limited gates space at SFO. During the mornings they overflow some international flights to the A concourse. If I am not mistaken there are on 4 domestic gates that can handle the 747/777.

I wonder if United would consider a few early am departure's to Asia if they had the a/c availability.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineSFOFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5515 times:

Without doing any real searching, you are missing the Saturday only flight SFO-CUN. I am sure that there are more Saturday only flights out there...


UA 1K Million Mile Flyer
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5504 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Thread starter):
PIT 1

No. This is only a codeshare onto a USAirways flight. It's US metal, not UA.


User currently offlineJdwfloyd From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 837 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5495 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Thread starter):
PIT 1

UA does not serve PIT direct out of SFO. It may be a code share with US or a thru flight.


User currently offlineOH-LGA From Denmark, joined Oct 1999, 1436 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5474 times:

SFO-PVR operates Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat as well with a Ted A320...


Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 2918 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5442 times:

So I'm seeing one additional FRA + two new PMD + 1 COS + 1 EUG - 1 PIT = 286.

Quoting SFOFlyer (Reply 6):
Without doing any real searching, you are missing the Saturday only flight SFO-CUN. I am sure that there are more Saturday only flights out there

I didn't count the Saturday only flights because I figured that they were replacing a mainline domestic service for the most part and, therefore, wouldn't overly effect the number of departures for the day. If anything I'd have though weekend
departures would be slightly lower than weekdays.

Quoting OH-LGA (Reply 4):
and there are 3x additional weekly SFO-HKG frequencies as well.

I didn't count those 3 because I figured that they were disappearing when the LAX-HKG flight takes effect.

Thanks for the info everyone!!


User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5404 times:

SFO-BIL weekend service starts June 7th on OO.

-Copa


User currently offlineOH-LGA From Denmark, joined Oct 1999, 1436 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5383 times:

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 11):
SFO-BIL weekend service starts June 7th on OO.

Oh that's right... along with SFO-BZN as well.



Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5063 times:

According to flightaware.com SFO operations currently average around 52-55 ops/hr at peak hr. I talked recently to a man who designed the Garulhos Airport in Sao Paulo and he noted how San Francisco is stuck with this problem, essentially SFO has two runways at one time.

QUESTION: Can SFO operate with the 28R for Arrivals, 28L for departures and and Runways 1L or 1R for departures all at the same time? That would seem to be an efficient way of running the airport, then again I have no knowledge about runway ops.

I guess the only option for SFO, is doing something in the likes of Osaka-Kansai, building on the bay, but the environmentalists will be up in arms with that thought.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4991 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 5):
If I am not mistaken SFO will be losing the 3 additional weekly HKG once LAX-HKG begins. I'd think it would have stayed if UA had the a/c available.

For sure. Same old problem, we now seem to be getting at UA...distinct lack of metal.


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6091 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 4799 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 13):

Technically it does operate this was. The normal departures are 1L/R and arrivals 28L/R. When there are a heavies departing to Asia/Hawaii and Europe, they MOSTLY depart 28L/R. But to cut SFO down to 28R arrivals only is the problem. In low vis, this is what happens. Add in a good amount of heavies with added separation and you can really reduce arrival rates. Your friend at Sao Paulo is right that SFO is stuck with the problems unless the airport can get past the NIMBYs and add an additional runway in the bay as you said, which I am in favor of of course. I'd love to see a bridge type of runway, which would reduce the environmental impact.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4713 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 13):
QUESTION: Can SFO operate with the 28R for Arrivals, 28L for departures and and Runways 1L or 1R for departures all at the same time? That would seem to be an efficient way of running the airport, then again I have no knowledge about runway ops.



Quoting AS739X (Reply 15):

Technically it does operate this was. The normal departures are 1L/R and arrivals 28L/R.

...most of it depends on the time of day......most departures in the morning are from 1R/1L....I've seen many heavies departing from the 1's......as mentioned above, the 28's are for arrivals..especially in the midmorning on (when most heavies arrive anyway)......

There are simultaneous departures off the 1's while there are planes arriving on the 28's...this speeds things up...


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jacobin777



the photo above, our flight was departing 1R while there was an incoming NW757 on the 28....

Now, unlike LHR, etc. there is rarely a line of 5+ planes taxiing...of my 50-60 times spotting at SFO, I have might have seen a line of 6 planes taxiing for departure only 1-2 times.....usually 2-4 planes..that's about it..

..even with all of the problems SFO has with fog, etc. SFO has the ability to still take on a lot more flights....the fact WN is coming in is some positive proof as part of the reason why WN is coming back is not only because of renegotiated lease rates, but better capabilities of SFO to handle arrivals/departures.....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6091 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4586 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):

I don't think it depends. This is the standard good weather operations. But as we know the common weather changes things more then anything. Afternoon winds often make for 28 departures and arrivals which does reduce arrival rate though, but at a quite time of the day.

Yeah the heavies do depart the 1's, but not with a heavy loads. Other then NRT, I've hardly ever seen a Asia departure from 1R. The Euro flights do use 1R sometimes, but not very often. Even BA or VS need to lighter then average for a 1R departure.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4586 times:

What about SFO-CDG, I didnt see that listed

User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4573 times:

Did UA drop ATL-SFO?

User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1124 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4573 times:

When the afternoon 'westerlies' get strong, as it has been of late, the departures frequently shift to 28. When it occurs in the early afternoon, the queues for departure can get quite long. Winds usually subside in the evening, allowing return to normal 1L/R departures. The positive fact is that this scenario occurs in clear weather. Major backups occur when fog obscures the approaches to 28L/R, then there are the rainy day approaches on 19L/R, inbound over OAK, which are confined to a few months in the winter.

User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1124 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4559 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 19):
Did UA drop ATL-SFO?

UA790 @ 11:00AM, SFO-ATL


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4546 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 18):
What about SFO-CDG, I didnt see that listed

Thats history unfortunately!


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6091 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4546 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 18):

Was discontinued a while back

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4538 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 17):
I don't think it depends. This is the standard good weather operations. But as we know the common weather changes things more then anything. Afternoon winds often make for 28 departures and arrivals which does reduce arrival rate though, but at a quite time of the day.

..true..I should have added that in my discussion...most of the operations are obviously due to weather patterns, but those are "typical" days and weather patterns.....

as I've said, I've spotted and flown out of SFO one too many times..and what I have mentioned is the "standard" way SFO operates...of course, there are times planes arrive on the 19's


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jacobin777



and there are rare times when even heavies arrive on the 1's (spectacular views!) and 10's.....

Quoting AS739X (Reply 17):
Yeah the heavies do depart the 1's, but not with a heavy loads. Other then NRT, I've hardly ever seen a Asia departure from 1R. The Euro flights do use 1R sometimes, but not very often. Even BA or VS need to lighter then average for a 1R departure.

....most heavies such as UA, NW, JL and NH depart noon/early afternoon, but by then, its back to the "usual" ops (i.e. departures on the 28)....now fellow A.net member did have a JL flight during the winter take off from the 19's!! It was a fairly light load B744..in fact, he has insisted that it even rotated off before crossing the 28 intersection! Being that he does have a pilots license (at least was working on one), I assume he knows what he's talking about...

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 18):
What about SFO-CDG, I didnt see that listed

....SFO-CDG ended a couple of years ago....loads were rather poor..AA ended SJC-CDG in 2001 only a few months after starting the route because the route was doing so poorly...



"Up the Irons!"
25 Post contains images AeroWesty : From the layout of the 19s in the drawing below, I find that nearly impossible. I've taken off on the 19s in a 727, and it took far longer than that
26 Legacyins : The loads were great. It was the yeilds that sucked.
27 Laxintl : Yes loads were very strong, revenue was not. Matter of fact annual average load factors were astounding 83.3% and 86.7% for 2004 and 2005, one of the
28 UnitedFlyer : I heard from a frequent SFO user that the UAX remote terminal has been closed....I can't imagine that is even possible with the amount of useage.....
29 Timz : On 19L, 3300 ft to the centerline of 28R. That's from the runway end, so subtract a bit for the planelength. So maybe the wind was 190 at 90.[Edited
30 Post contains links Planecrazy2 : I believe it's been closed for quite a while now. Here is the current layout: http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,1121,00.html
31 OH-LGA : It is indeed true. It closed down February of 2006... the remote terminal building has been razed and is completely wiped off the map. UAX operations
32 Post contains images Jacobin777 : .......apologies guys..it was right after the 28's..not before.....feel a bit dumb now.. ...my bad.... ....I meant AA's SJC-CDG loads were rather poo
33 Sydscott : So how does Air France do in terms of yields & loads into SFO? Since UA pulled off the route they surely would have been able to increase their yield
34 Post contains images Johnboy : LOL, think LAX NIMBY'S times 100! The big difference would be the various sacred space drum circles/ mass "die-in's" on the runways representing all
35 Sydscott : LOL That's piss funny!! Are you serious??
36 Post contains images AS739X : SFO has issue's with NIMBY's when an idea pops in planners heads while laying in bed Right now there are no to many plans though, so I have not heard
37 AeroWesty : I don't doubt it at all. Just not a 744 carrying a commercial load fueled for NRT against 10 hours of headwinds. But the issue has been addressed, it
38 AS739X : Sorry Aero. Misunderstood what you had said. I agree, not a chance a JAL 747 hit Vr before crossing the intersection. ASSFO
39 Post contains images SailorOrion : UA might serve SFO-MUC next year SailorOrion
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