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A380 And Life Rafts.  
User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6237 times:

Hey folks
been just thinkin about the A380 and also what the procedure would be in an emergency over water. If on land then all the doors (as long as there not blocked) can be opened and slides deploy and the plane gets evacuated. Now if there on water the bottom deck then has no problem as then the slides become rafts like normal but then what about the passengers on the top?? do they then all have to come downstairs to get on the rafts as the top ones will still be slides!!

Anybody have any info on this??

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSpeedmarque From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6225 times:

The A380s upper deck doors also has slide/rafts.

Cheers


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4830 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6225 times:

I believe that unlike the UD on the 747, the A380 UD will be sliderafts rather than just slides only. Someone correct me if this is wrong.  Wink


56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6225 times:

They wait until the plane sinks to their level. Much safer actually, shaves several minutes of having to brave the open water.

User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6165 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 2):
I believe that unlike the UD on the 747, the A380 UD will be sliderafts rather than just slides only. Someone correct me if this is wrong.

But that is what im getting at. If they land on water then the top deck slides will slope down and then people wont be on the raft but rather in the sea. Will they actually have to wait till the plane sinks to get them level or are they very smart liferafts that have slides also!


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4830 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6114 times:

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 4):
But that is what im getting at. If they land on water then the top deck slides will slope down and then people wont be on the raft but rather in the sea. Will they actually have to wait till the plane sinks to get them level or are they very smart liferafts that have slides also!

a) the aircraft would be sitting quite low... the UD on the Whalejet is lower than the UD on a 744.
b) the UD sliderafts are considerably longer than those on the LD. I think they are actually in 2 parts even... a small slide connected to the raft? in which case it would be a slide down to the raft sitting flat on the sea.
c) none of this matters coz if the Whalejet ditches chances are most people are gonna die anyway and those that survive will fit on whatever rafts are useable.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineJamesJimlb From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6098 times:

what does ud and ld mean?

i think the slides might be longer and slide rafts.



The sky is no longer the limit, but the mere minimum
User currently offlineJamesbuk From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 3968 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6071 times:

Quoting JamesJimlb (Reply 6):
what does ud and ld mean?

Upper Deck Lower Deck.

Ok so what about the over wing ones then? they are all bent and slope and alsorts of stuff, if that was used as a raft it would capsize would it not?
Is there a video of them testing the rafts in like a pool or something?

rgds --James--



You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4830 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6045 times:

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 7):
Ok so what about the over wing ones then? they are all bent and slope and alsorts of stuff, if that was used as a raft it would capsize would it not?
Is there a video of them testing the rafts in like a pool or something?

On the 747 the OW slides are not sliderafts.... the A380 is probably the same.... used on land or as a backup in a ditching but the primary means of escape in a ditching are the other doors.
I've used a 747 raft in a pool before... good fun there, but you wouldn't want to be stuck with 60+ souls in one on the open sea!



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 460 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6022 times:

Quoting JamesJimlb (Reply 6):
what does ud and ld mean

UD= Upper Deck
ID or LD= Lower Deck

This kind of accident with survivors happened just once in aviation history. There was an article in the german AERO International some month ago about it. The plane involved was a DC-9. It happened somewhere in the caribean sea.

http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19700502-0

Just a general question, about this scenario. Are people supposed to jump into water first and after this they have to climb on the raft?

Best Regards. Tom



Tom from Cologne
User currently offlineSphealey From United States of America, joined May 2005, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5977 times:

> This kind of accident with survivors happened just
> once in aviation history.

Do you mean in the jet age? There were several successful ditching/evacuations in the large prop era (mostly involving Stratoliners). Personally I would not expect to survive such an accident, but it has happened.

sPh


User currently offlineFlybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5769 times:

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 9):
This kind of accident with survivors happened just once in aviation history...

It's these types of statistics that make me wonder why they even bother with "floatation devices" and preparing for "water landings". It seems to be all extra weight and fluff to keep nervous fliers happy. I figure if a plane as large as an A380 ditched it would be a 10-mile wide kerosene-soaked oceanic debris field.



"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3409 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5699 times:

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 11):
It's these types of statistics that make me wonder why they even bother with "floatation devices" and preparing for "water landings". It seems to be all extra weight and fluff to keep nervous fliers happy. I figure if a plane as large as an A380 ditched it would be a 10-mile wide kerosene-soaked oceanic debris field.

Calm waters with a good pilot ditching is very safe.

Course usualy when you ditch something is broken so you might not have a clean glide into the water.


User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 460 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5599 times:

Quoting Sphealey (Reply 10):
Do you mean in the jet age?

Yes I meant the jet age. I also meant, that this was the only accident, which happened in the way it is always shown on the safety videos.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 12):
Calm waters with a good pilot ditching is very safe.

What about the big engines? Won't it break apart? They should build in a special device for this case, with what they can loosen the engines prior to landing on water.  Wink

Best Regards. Tom



Tom from Cologne
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5563 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 5):
c) none of this matters coz if the Whalejet ditches chances are most people are gonna die anyway and those that survive will fit on whatever rafts are usable

It matters if everyone survives. If I am on that plane, I want every chance possible.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 11):
I figure if a plane as large as an A380 ditched it would be a 10-mile wide kerosene-soaked oceanic debris field

Maybe it ditched because it was out of fuel? Maybe it holds together.

M


User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5517 times:

Ok i know that these kind of situations are rare and normally the situation will bring death BUT FAA still says that you need enough lifeboats for the people on board and so forth.
So if you need the liferafts and so forth and you make the landing, can the upper doors be used or not!
I thought it was a very simple question and an answer would be quick but it seems people have given me ratios of safe landings on water to deadly landings on water!!


User currently offlineGlobalATL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5436 times:

Ditching usually means that you're a gonner! UD rafts LD rafts -- who cares. It wont matter by then

User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3409 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5361 times:

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 13):
What about the big engines? Won't it break apart? They should build in a special device for this case, with what they can loosen the engines prior to landing on water.

engines are supposed to break clean off. The danger with a water or wheels up landing of any kind is hooking the wing itself on the ground and starting a "cartwheel"


User currently offlineMarkHKG From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 960 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5239 times:

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 9):
Just a general question, about this scenario. Are people supposed to jump into water first and after this they have to climb on the raft?

For the DC-9, the doors slides are not rafts. Therefore, passengers would have to first jump into the water, and the slide detached to be used as a flotation device. Unfortunately, the life-raft that was equipped for this aircraft was accidentally inflated inside the cabin at the 1R door and was thus rendered useless.

On the A380, this is a non-issue as the door has slide/rafts which allows for direct boarding.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 8):
On the 747 the OW slides are not sliderafts.... the A380 is probably the same.... used on land or as a backup in a ditching but the primary means of escape in a ditching are the other doors.

You're right. The overwing exits would interfere with the deployment of the UD2 door slide/rafts. The FAA actually wrote a special rule requiring that Airbus develop procedures to prevent this exit from being used. Just as the B747, the door should be placed into manual (disarmed) mode after a ditching.

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 7):
Is there a video of them testing the rafts in like a pool or something?

I remember seeing a picture of the A380 UD slide/raft in the open water. (Actually it was on the OCEAN!) Kind of cool.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 5):
I think they are actually in 2 parts even... a small slide connected to the raft? in which case it would be a slide down to the raft sitting flat on the sea.

The "2 parts" of the Upper Deck slide/raft is actually just a couple of more feet of slide that gets deployed if the door senses an unusual attitude (usually nose up) due to a gear collapse. The design probably won't help in a ditching.

Quoting Graphic (Reply 3):
They wait until the plane sinks to their level. Much safer actually, shaves several minutes of having to brave the open water.

I'm not sure about this. Most flight attendants and cabin crew are taught that a ditching is catastrophic, so as soon as the aircraft comes to a stop, doors must be opened and slide/rafts readied as soon as possible. The only exception is doors that are below the water line.

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 16):
Ditching usually means that you're a gonner!

There are many of airports near major bodies of water, so an overrun into water is entirely possible. Consider the case of a B747 China Airlines aircraft (registration B-165) ended up in the water of Hong Kong's harbor-- in which case, all slide/rafts and life jackets were used. Though not a ditching, per se, the aircraft remained intact and allowed for a safe evacuation of the passengers of crew.



Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
User currently onlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4146 times:

Quoting Graphic (Reply 3):
They wait until the plane sinks to their level. Much safer actually, shaves several minutes of having to brave the open water.

That would cut down on the stress involved in such a situation...  silly 

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineGeorgiaAME From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 12):
Calm waters with a good pilot ditching is very safe.

I doubt that very much. Modern aircraft are probably only slightly better landing on water than they are at landing in trees.

Be that as it may, I wonder if anyone bothered to figure out just how deep the plane will sink, assuming it doesn't crack up on landing. This is a pretty big machine, and its pretty heavy. Where is the water line? Cargo level? Main deck? Between the main deck and the upper?

I'm just glad I don't design these things...



"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlineTheRonald From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3006 times:

don't forget shark repelant in your carry on  pray 


I already have the quilty concious, may as well have the money, too.
User currently offlineMarkHKG From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 960 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2866 times:

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 20):
Be that as it may, I wonder if anyone bothered to figure out just how deep the plane will sink, assuming it doesn't crack up on landing. This is a pretty big machine, and its pretty heavy. Where is the water line? Cargo level? Main deck? Between the main deck and the upper?

Aircraft manufactures do undertake flotation studies using models on their aircraft. This can help them estimate which exits are likely to be below the waterline.



Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
User currently offlineVgnAtl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2842 times:

You guys haven't heard!?!?!?! The A380 program delays had nothing to do with wiring. The innovative folks over at Airbus have been putting in some extra hours developing a giant raft that deploys under the aircraft, floating the whole aircraft.  Wink

In all seriousness, I think the procedure for evacuating an aircraft the size of an A380 on water is probably just for morale. Everyone knows that the chances of surviving such event are pretty slim--about the same as rocketing down one of those slides and actually stopping in the raft at the end without bouncing right off it.

In the discovery series about building the A380 they spend an entire segment talking about the development of the slides and the evac tests. They even go into the factory of the slide manufacturer and explain how they're built. It's quite interesting (actually all 5 shows in the A380 series are quite good).



Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
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