EI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 22037 times:
.............Airbus
According to the Sunday Times, Aer Lingus has entered into exclusive talks with Airbus for its long haul fleet renewal, after a long selection process between Airbus and Boeing.
The main quotes:
- Aer Lingus has entered into exclusive talks about its €1billion fleet expansion programme with european manufacturer Airbus.
- Irish airline management hopes to conclude a deal with Airbus within weeks.
- According to industry sources, there is still a clear risk that the recently floated Aer Lingus will end up buying aircraft at inflated prices, and could find itself carrying the cost of expensive aircraft in an increasingly competitive market.
- The airline is in advanced talks with a number of airports regarding a new european base, believed to be Belfast, Birmingham, Bristol and Manchester.
The order will be for 14 aircraft. The airline has been looking at the A350 and the 787 for over a year.
Personally I was hoping to see some Boeings in the fleet again, but it appears that the airline does prefer the A350. I also believe that an interim order for A330s is on the cards, as the airline plans to launch new long haul routes over the next few years.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23613 posts, RR: 79 Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 21177 times:
Considering EI's entire fleet is Airbus, sticking with the A350 allow them to continue to single-source and find savings in maintenance, training, and other areas through package deals with Airbus.
Kaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2153 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 21107 times:
Even though they are an Airbus only airline, I think it is a bad idea for them to publicly state that they are looking for only the A350. This would make Airbus less willing to lower the price for them.
BrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3739 posts, RR: 11 Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 21045 times:
Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 11): Even though they are an Airbus only airline, I think it is a bad idea for them to publicly state that they are looking for only the A350. This would make Airbus less willing to lower the price for them
The problem is, I guess, that they have left is waaaay too late for the 787. They should be able to get a cracking deal on the A350s. As a launch customer (almost certianly among teh 1st aircraft to be delivered if tehy go for the A350) they should be seeing a buy one, get one free sort of situation, given that airbus HAS to sell this aircraft fast, to maintain ground against Boeing.
It was widely roumered that VS got 40-50% off its initial A346's. So EI should be looking at 50% discount, as would Finnair ans US.
Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23613 posts, RR: 79 Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 21023 times:
Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 11): Even though they are an Airbus only airline, I think it is a bad idea for them to publicly state that they are looking for only the A350. This would make Airbus less willing to lower the price for them.
Fiddlesticks. Airbus needs the sale, and even if they didn't, telling EI to now "pay list or kiss off" just sends them back to Boeing.
One would think the single-source deals secured by the likes of WN, FR and U2 would make it plain that even in such deals, the manufacturers are still giving no less then "standard" discounts.
Heck, even PA, who was downright required to buy Boeing because of their outstanding 744 deposits, still got 42% off their 777-300ERs.
EI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 20950 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 10): Considering EI's entire fleet is Airbus, sticking with the A350 allow them to continue to single-source and find savings in maintenance, training, and other areas through package deals with Airbus.
Training yes, although I cant see much in in the way of maintance commonality between an A330 and A350, esp if EI order Rolls Royce engines on A350s. For the moment at least they have a GE option only on the 787.
Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 11): Even though they are an Airbus only airline, I think it is a bad idea for them to publicly state that they are looking for only the A350. This would make Airbus less willing to lower the price for them.
The airline has not yet stated anything officially. It appears that they may have reached a preliminary deal with Airbus. Whether this includes an agreement on price is unclear at this point.
Dank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 811 posts, RR: 18 Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 20931 times:
Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 11): Even though they are an Airbus only airline, I think it is a bad idea for them to publicly state that they are looking for only the A350. This would make Airbus less willing to lower the price for them.
I think maybe you are reading more into this than there is. If I am reading this correctly (and I might not), I would assume that they have taken in bids from both manufacturers and have made their decision and are just finishing up the details. I have seen statements like this all over the place, that an airline is entering exclusive talks with one manufacturer once they have made the decision which of the offers to take.
EI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 20899 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13): Heck, even PA, who was downright required to buy Boeing because of their outstanding 744 deposits, still got 42% off their 777-300ERs.
Moo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 2986 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 20899 times:
Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 11): Even though they are an Airbus only airline, I think it is a bad idea for them to publicly state that they are looking for only the A350. This would make Airbus less willing to lower the price for them.
Why do people keep saying this? To quote the thread starter:
Quoting EI321 (Thread starter): Aer Lingus has entered into exclusive talks with Airbus for its long haul fleet renewal, after a long selection process between Airbus and Boeing.
...
The airline has been looking at the A350 and the 787 for over a year.
Boeing was involved, and there was a competition (of sorts) between the relevant products, Aer Lingus isn't handing this to Airbus on a plate as pricing has almost certainly been discussed well before this.
This is the purchasing process entering the final stages, dotting the T's, crossing the I's and peripheral items - theres no reason to think that Airbus have any great leeway in gouging Aer Lingus pricewise.
Poitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 20878 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 10): Considering EI's entire fleet is Airbus, sticking with the A350 allow them to continue to single-source and find savings in maintenance, training, and other areas through package deals with Airbus.
This is true
Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 11): Even though they are an Airbus only airline, I think it is a bad idea for them to publicly state that they are looking for only the A350. This would make Airbus less willing to lower the price for them.
This is even truer
And everyone, I don't think we have hear the end of MOL in this scenario.
There is a old saying that the Opera isn't over until the fat lady sings and I don't think she even got on stage yet. There are still a couple interesting acts coming up in opera. The curtain on Act II of Aer Lingus will come up in July, when the EC choirs sings Non-competitivi and the evil Baron Micheal storms on to stage to plot his revenge.
Sorry, I don't have a copy of the libretto, and if I did I won't publish it in A.net and ruin all the fun of the upcoming threads!
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11362 posts, RR: 40 Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 19990 times:
They have already been talking to Boeing and Airbus for some time, so - if this article is true (and it's still a big "if", because I didn't see comment from EI and they'd probably deny it vociferously) - they've probably got the RFPs from both and have gone through them and found that the Airbuses offered a better deal. Again, bear in mind that Airbus needs this order much more than Boeing, so it does make a lot of sense. Boeing simply doesn't have the same need to discount its aircraft to the extent that Airbus is apparently doing and if the rumours about the discount offered to US or anything like true, then EI will be getting a lot of bang for its buck.
Without actually knowing what either side was offering, I am sure that Airbus's proposals also included details of what it intended to provide as an interim solution. Remember also that not all of these aircraft will be bought directly; like the 320s, a good few will be leased, so the $1b deal isn't necessarily inaccurate (although I suspect it is - they can't possibly know the true contract price!)
JFK787NYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 798 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 19904 times:
First off I would like to appolgize to everyone it seems I have pissed some A.Netters off with this comment.
Please explain to me the logic of doing this?
there is still a clear risk that the recently floated Aer Lingus will end up buying aircraft at inflated prices?
Ok, Here is my main opinion on the EURO to DOLLAR pricing.
In regards to 787 components being built outside of the United States, All raw metals & other materials are purchased in US Dollars even in Europe. I know this as I am in the Metals Trading business. Which means that it is cheaper to build these components in Europe than in the United States because you are converting from the Euro to Dollar to pay for the raw materials. The only thing where BOEING and the component producer are loosing out on are the SALARY of all employees, as instead of paying $4000 USD in the states they are paying 4000Euro which equals out to $5400 USD.
When they are paying for the raw materials in EURO but price is set in USD for these materials you are saving $.35USD per kilogram of material.
Example: Titanium Sponge TG100 aircraft grade-The main Titanium product used in the avaition industry today cost
$21.50 USD per kilogram....When you are buying this material in EUROPE you are converting the EURO to the USD
Which technically equals out to $15.92 EURO per kilogram.
Imagine buying 1 metric ton (1 Metric ton equals 1000 Kilogram) of Titanium Sponge at $21500 USD in the United States or 1 metric ton for 15'920 EURO
So it is cheaper to actually produce some components in EUROPE than in the United States. Plus, Shipping is much cheaper as most of this material is coming from the Fromer Soviet Union - Russia, Ukraine & Kazakhstan.
(TITANIUM SPONGE)
Shipping from the Former Soviet Union to SEATTLE, United States for One 40'' Container usually equals 20 metric ton is around 75 days at sea and cost around $9500 USD per container plus Insurance around 1% of overall gross value of goods.
Container is worth $430'000 plus $9500 Shipping, Plus $4300 Insurance
Or
Shipping from the Former Soviet Union to Anywhere in Europe for one 40" Container 20 Metric tons is
around 7-10 Days on the road and cost around $5500 USD per container and usually you dont even need Insurance as Trucks are usually insured for everything.
Contianer is worth 318'400 EURO plus $5500 Shipping
We are not even factoring in exactly how many CONTAINERS monthly BOEING needs to keep up with production and We are not factoring in that Boeing needs to tie up $1'335'000 monthly just for material to always be arriving in SEATTLE without any delays.
If components were produced in SEATTLE or Far East and not EUROPE lead time for material to be delivered at the BOEING plant is 75 DAYS per Container.
When produced in Europe they can store the material in a container in Russia without picking it up until they really need it.
Technically, BOEING is actually winning by outsourcing main components of the 787 to EUROPE. Because of the EURO Purchasing Power.
Now, when you bring the finished components to the United States to assembly the 787. It turns out that the plane becomes automatically cheaper as the plane is assembled in USD not in EURO. All the Technical stuff is in DOLLARS not EUROS.
The minus with AIRBUS is all there bills Salarys, Components Developers, Assembly Plants and all the Governmental involvement is all in reference to the EURO but than the A350XWB must be sold in USD to compete with BOEING.
The United States & Far East circulates around the United States Dollars, Only Europe circulates around the EURO
Thats about one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read, Boeing is winning with the 787 because it's a better aircraft and more suited to today... but your are over complicating simple economics.
SJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 18164 times:
I often wonder if the Irish Government which owns around 30% of Aer Lingus somehow influences these choices. Kind of along the lines of what is good for Airbus is good for the EU, and what is good for the EU is good for Ireland. There are very few airlines that I believe consider anything beyond pure economics in purchase of Aircraft. The Airlines based in Taiwan, Japan, Russia and Israel I believe are influenced by econmical politics. Because of Aer Lingus buying habits and government ownership I put them in the "suspect" category, but otoh most of their purchases are logical when viewed from a pure economical standpoint, but I still wonder....
EI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 18052 times:
Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 23): I often wonder if the Irish Government which owns around 30% of Aer Lingus somehow influences these choices. Kind of along the lines of what is good for Airbus is good for the EU, and what is good for the EU is good for Ireland.
Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 23): Because of Aer Lingus buying habits and government ownership I put them in the "suspect" category, but otoh most of their purchases are logical when viewed from a pure economical standpoint, but I still wonder....
In that case, could you offer an explanation why, when Aer Lingus was 100% government owned, in the 80s & early 90s they selected the 767 and 737 over competing Airbus products?
SJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 17713 times:
Quoting EI321 (Reply 24): In that case, could you offer an explanation why, when Aer Lingus was 100% government owned, in the 80s & early 90s they selected the 767 and 737 over competing Airbus products?
I'm not saying they didn't choose the best aircraft for their business, but if I got the years correct here it just makes me wonder. Aer Lingus took delivery on B737's in 1969, 1987, 1989 and 1990, so most of those years there was no Airbus equivalent, but as soon as there was in 1992 they started dropping the B737's and buying Airbus products even though both airliners are almost identical. They operated a B767 from about 1991-1994, but as soon as the A330 and A340 were available in 1992 the Boeings started to be replaced. Sorry I am not an Aer Lingus expert but it seems to me as soon as the equivalent Airbus product is available that is what they buy. Giving their buying habits, I'm not surprized they would buy the A350 instead of the B787. BTW, I do not think this is a bad idea. If an American Airline has a choice between identical Boeing and Airbus products, IMHO they should buy the American product to support the economy and passengers that fly their airline. On a local level this is what Alaska Airline is doing with their "ALL Boeing Fleet". If an airline buys American products, all things being equal I will normally choose to fly on that airline. IF WN starts converting to a Airbus fleet I will start flying AS more often.
BrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3739 posts, RR: 11 Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 17436 times:
Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 23): The Airlines based in Taiwan, Japan, Russia and Israel I believe are influenced by econmical politics. Because of Aer Lingus buying habits and government ownership I put them in the "suspect" category, but otoh most of their purchases are logical when viewed from a pure economical standpoint, but I still wonder....
My good man, I would advis you not to make comments on a subject of which you know nought.....
Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 25): as soon as there was in 1992 they started dropping the B737's and buying Airbus products even though both airliners are almost identical. They operated a B767 from about 1991-1994, but as soon as the A330 and A340 were available in 1992 the Boeings started to be replaced. Sorry I am not an Aer Lingus expert but it seems to me as soon as the equivalent Airbus product is available that is what they buy. Giving their buying habits, I'm not surprized they would buy the A350 instead of the B787.
Let me enlighen you.....
747s to the east coast were replaced with 767-300ERs. Quite frankly they were too small. The A330-300 was larger, and because of the CANX Air Inter order were available immediately(c 1994), at fireslae prices. Aer Lingus took Airbus up on its offer. Later, when LAX was to be launched, the A330-200 made sense, it had the range and commonalitty.
Sprng forward a few years to 1996/1997, LHR needs more capacity, and the 737-400s SPECIFICALLY bought for teh IRK-LHR runs are too small. Being slot constrained what was EI to do? Use the heavier 757 on 1 hour hops? or(like many, amny other European carriers) take the more effecient and lighter A321 for its needs? At this point the 737-900 was not on the table, I believe.
As time went on it made sense to add common Airbus aircraft, as opposed to a fleet of 737NG & A321/A330. The EI fleet is not huge, so it is a significant benifit to be able to have effectively a one-type fleet across a large range of aircraft sizes. Boeing could never have offered this.
At any rate, the idea that the Irish government would even know how to apply pressure on EI is simply daft. Indeed, for many, many, years, until surprisingly recently the DOT was thought to be the "downtown office of Aer Lingus", and let me assure you the flow was EI->GOVERNMENT, and not teh other way around!
Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 25): all things being equal I will normally choose to fly on that airline. IF WN starts converting to a Airbus fleet I will start flying AS more often.
Im sorry, this is just silly. Airlines should buy the best product for their needs. Period.
Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
EI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 17367 times:
Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 25): Aer Lingus took delivery on B737's in 1969, 1987, 1989 and 1990, so most of those years there was no Airbus equivalent, but as soon as there was in 1992 they started dropping the B737's and buying Airbus products even though both airliners are almost identical.
There were no airbus aircraft in 1969, but Airbus did have the A320 in the late 80s, over which Aer Lingus chose the 737. They did not drop the 737s in 1992, I think your refering to the A330s which began to replace 747-100s in 1994.
Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 25): They operated a B767 from about 1991-1994, but as soon as the A330 and A340 were available in 1992 the Boeings started to be replaced.
Aer Lingus actually planned to operate more 767s, but they returned the two (leased) ones at the time because of route difficulties. They aquired them on the premise that they they could launch a new DUB-LAX route, for which the 767-300ER was deemed the perfect aircraft. They had also just recently retired their 707s. It soon emerged that they would not be able to operate the route due to legislation, and so they found that they had not much use for them alongside the 747s.
They were also having trouble filling the 747s which were due for replacement. They looked at buying second hand 747s but it was feared that in doing such they would before long in a situation where they would again have to look at replacing the newer Jumbos. In the meantime, Airbus offered them 3 A330s at short notice, which the airline deemed to be the right size for their routes to the east coast, although not suitable of flying DUB-LAX, but this was not so bad considering that the LAX route they wanted was now off the table anyway. The A330-300s that Airbus offered had been intended for Air Inter which no longer needed them, and Aer Lingus were being offered a great deal by Airbus.
Legoguy From Ireland, joined Jun 2006, 3288 posts, RR: 50 Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 16309 times:
Great news if it turns out to be true. Some of the replies in this thread have made a great laugh to read.
Is this the first potential A350XWB order for an airline that did not order the original A350?
Quoting EI321 (Thread starter): The airline is in advanced talks with a number of airports regarding a new european base, believed to be Belfast, Birmingham, Bristol and Manchester.
Also great news for me What exactly does this mean? They will possibly fly to Belfast from Dublin, or they will possibly start flying across the Atlantic from Belfast?
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
Haddock0815 From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 41 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 16021 times:
>>According to the Sunday Times, Aer Lingus has entered into exclusive talks with Airbus for its long haul fleet renewal, after a long selection process between Airbus and Boeing.<<
>>The airline has been looking at the A350 and the 787 for over a year.<<
It´s kind of funny... no, it´s actually sad that most of the A.netters here think that the choice of the A350 is just a matter of money!
No way that this plane just fits better to Aer Lingus than any other does!
Especially not, if the competitor is the holy, the best, the one and only B787!
And sure, Boeing is not in the need to give discount rates (Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
Heck, even PA, who was downright required to buy Boeing because of their outstanding 744 deposits, still got 42% off their 777-300ERs.) , so it is no wonder that Airbus got the deal.
Just remember:
If Boeing gets a deal it is because of the superior quality of their products.
If Airbus gets one it is because of the huge discount rates, the "buy one, get 5 free"- deals, it´s because the airline is owned by the Nations that holds shares of Airbus, etc.
It is always the same song and I can´t hear it anymore...
B707Stu From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 918 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 15694 times:
Ireland and EI have done quite well by the E.U. and all it brings. It's no surprise they've gone Airbus. I'd have been shocked had they gone Boeing. Good for them and good for Airbus, it's nice to see EI doing so well and planning for the future, and seeing the E.U. have more off spring.
JFK787NYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 798 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15175 times:
Reply: Smokeyrosco From Ireland
I was not trying to prove which plane was better. As you can see by my screenname I personally am a 787 fan.
Someone on this forum said when comparing the 787 to the A350 you cannot compare the EURO to DOLLAR RATIO.
I was just proving that BOEING is actually making money on the development of the plane by outsourcing to EUROPE.
AIRBUS Economically is hurting because of the EURO.
I was not comparing which plane is better. I was trying to point out that when your at the table with AIRBUS or BOEING the carriers use this formula to recieve better prices and obviously BOEING can drop price easier than AIRBUS.
So AIRBUS is going to be held with a gun to the head everytime they speak to a carrier because they have to match the price or give a bigger discount than BOEING.
25 SJCRRPAX: Nice explanation Brian, that all sounds reasonable, and I agree that an airline should buy what ever is the best product for their needs. But if two
26 Ken777: I have no doubt that EI chose the best option for their situation. Airbus will most likely have provided launch pricing (or close), maybe betting that
27 PacificWest: I really don't care what Aer Lingus chose... Airbus Boeing, Tupolev, Cessna(lol)...whatever. But AT THIS POINT it seems like the 787 is the best produ
28 SSTsomeday: It seems to me that the 787 is a more DEFINED product, since I would imagine it has a near 100% design freeze at this point. So I am intrigued when a
29 Helvknight: So presumably you won't be flying on the 787, large bits of which are made in Europe and Japan. After all a few bits of the 787 are actually being bu
30 PacificWest: I love anything made in Japan, especially my Toyota pickup!... as for Europe, we'd need to know which countries
31 CV990: Hi! Congratulations Aer Lingus, welcome to the team of A350's buyers like TAP, FINNAIR, TAM, SIA, etc. etc. Nothing that I was not expecting...and the
32 BrianDromey: The last time EI choose "poorly" was the 767-300ER. Quite simply (as detailed by EI321 & myself) it was too small for trunk routes to the east coast.
33 Tjcab: why is it that when an airline chooses Airbus, it's such a big problem to some. Damn! Get over the hating already!
35 OA260: Yeah some people still havnt gotten out of kinder garten. If Aer Lingus had have ordered the 787 I would be equally pleased, just that they are getti
36 TJCAB: As would I! Love aviation not hate. There are enough customers to go around. Do we see this hate between CRJ and ERJ lovers?
37 Danny: Today's morning Metro in Dublin seems to confirm that Airbus has been selected with A350XWB. The best news is that the decision has been made and cont
38 EI737NG: Disappointed that 350 got the nod, but 787 was never really an option, given that it was already an all airbus fleet. Again, as has been stated Airbus
39 DAYflyer: Yes, so really no big surprises with this selection. If they had picked the 787, it would have been a shocker.
40 Stitch: On the other hand, if Airbus can get the A320E out of the hangar with a GTF or LEAP56 hanging off it, it would give EI a more efficient A320 to tide
41 Baroque: With BA using a GE owned facility, is there scope for the more than averagely cunning Irish to set up an RR maintenance facility there?
42 EI321: Just to refer back to what I stated earlier in this thread, its becoming clear that the 787 is the natural successor to the 767, A300, A310, & 772 and
44 Stitch: Price won't be the determiner of this order more then availability, I imagine, as Airbus will give them a good price. More A330s on short-term manufac
45 CV990: Hi! I'm sorry to say this, but LOT cannot be used has an example!!! And airlines like BA, AF and LH also have Airbus planes...and LH and AF actually h
46 EI321: Interim aircraft are definitely important. Apparently Boeing have been offering Aer Lingus a very attractive deal for interim 777s, but such a small
47 StarGoldLHR: Buying a plane isnt like buying a car. you dont just turn up and say I want 10 of x how much ? Other factors are influencial... if EI wants Y or F sea
48 Revelation: Not as much is known about the A350, but it's not at all clear what the best product is. Certainly the A350 is the larger aircraft, so if you are Aer
49 EI321: True, although I think Aer Lingus will go for relativly run-of-the-mill seating in new aircraft. Just your standard Eco and Business class. On the A3
50 EI321: I disagree. Not much is known about the A350 .......... If like most a.netters all you have access to is Airbus.com, Wikipedia & Flight International
51 EI321: I contacted the Airbus media dept about this, and as I expected, they said: ''We are aware of these articles, but unfortunatly we are not able to elab
52 Toulouse: Very true. Have given me a good laugh as well. So very very true Haddock0815. Well, hoping this is true, I can now really enjoy the rest of my holida
53 AirNz: Can I ask why......Europe is Europe, so what difference should it make?
54 LTU932: Just because the two biggest Airbus operators in Europe have ordered the A380, doesn't mean they'll automatically buy the A350. In fact, AF is the le
55 EI321: The lack of a GE option effectivly lost Airbus an AF A340-600 order (AF themselves stated that thay would have ordered the A346 , had it been built w
56 SKY1: Sorry, but that's a non-sense. Should myself avoid UX in domestic flights within Spain or intra EU just because they are operating the 737-800 instea
57 SJCRRPAX: What I am advocating is supporting your local economy. The USA has a trade defecit with almost every country in the world. I am not advocating avoidi
58 SKY1: I see your point, but USA is, also, the biggest power in the world, the World's biggest economy and if US has such trade defecit is because they can
59 SSTsomeday: I believe there ARE reasonable people here who prefer one over the other (320 vs 737) because of a very practical reason: at what height in the cabin
60 Slz396: And which would you consider the be more an American product: a 787 with RR engines or an A330 with the GE or PW engine? You might be surprised to kn
61 Baroque: Seems as if you might know the answer to this Slz, does the same hold for the 32x and 73x series? I read somewhere that it did, but cannot find a ref
62 BrianDromey: Yeup. If the Chineese can do it better, then why not? The Americans, had no trouble dumping their poorly made GM's and Fords when Toyota made better
63 CV990: Hi! And because there's no option for the GE right now it means that Airbus will not have it for the A350 in the future??? If they have it for the A33
64 Slz396: A very large portion of the value of a plane is made up by its engines, so selecting "European engines" over "American engines" automatically makes t
65 LifelinerOne: So, how do you feel about the outsourcing that is being done on several Boeing projects? I've I recall correctly, 25% of the new B787 isn't even US.
66 Slz396: I think you will find the real percentage number much higher... especially if you look at the 787 with RR engines: much more than half of the value o
67 BrianDromey: Its not Airbus complicating the issue, it is in fact, GE. AKAIK its to do with the 77W. Basically GE cont/wont make another engine in that size class
68 Slz396: The reason GE is so reluctant to step on board the A350-1000 is because the engine it would have to develop for the XWB would instantaneously finish
69 CV990: Hi! BrianDromey and Slz396, thanks for your information! I can understand pretty well issue of GE, but I'm also thinking about TP, they will receive f
70 PM: Does that much matter? The assumption must be that EI will replace their entire fleet of A330s with A350s. It's not like, say, KLM who concurrently h
71 Kaitak: I don't think it does matter, PM. As you rightly say, EI has stuck with the GE engine because it was on the ex-IT A330s it got. It had PWs on the 707,
72 EI737NG: Speaking to a colleague of mine and her son is a captain in EI, now flying s/h having flown l/h for a while and he has said that he preferred the 737
73 Revelation: You seem to think that GE presumed there would be no competition to the 3ER for its entire lifespan?
74 Slz396: Quoting Revelation (Reply 73): You seem to think that GE presumed there would be no competition to the 3ER for its entire lifespan? GE assumed that co
75 Stitch: I don't know how GE amortizes their costs, but I do know they spent $2.6 billion on the entire GE90 program (all variants) and around $500 million in
76 SJCRRPAX: Quoting Slz396 (Reply 60): And which would you consider the be more an American product: a 787 with RR engines or an A330 with the GE or PW engine? Wi
77 Boeing767-300: Second half of next decade... 25 years after GE90 launch. Does not bode well for Trent 500 and RR or A380 on the same basis. The 115B has sold a larg
78 Baroque: Thanks Slz, that is about what I thought, but if you ever work out how much of the "other bits" come from the opposite side of the Atlantic do let us
79 EI321: I though it was expected to be paid for by 2012? Its no wonder that GE are being coy about the A350, but I think they will eventually sign on. In fac
80 Stitch: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...20Keep%20Pace%20With%20Hot%20Sales Now how, exactly, Aviation Week came up with a 15-year break-even, I do not
81 Astuteman: This is the new A-net myth, EI321. Airlines are ordering the A350 from the back of a fag packet, despite 12 months of solid engineering having alread
82 Jacobin777: ...right now, GE is only agreeing to put engines on for the A358, GE still isn't certain with the A359..and I do not believe GE will be putting anyth
83 EI321: Are you sure? Virgin blues are coming next year. There are approx 320 aircraft in the 777 backlog. At a rate of 7/month, that is 46 months production
84 TeamAmerica: And admitting, of course, that the 'fly Airbus to support the EU' logic is equally flawed. Exactly so. The advantages the A350-1000 will enjoy over t
85 Jacobin777: ..I think Virgin Blue was one of the last of those.....I'm 95% sure 2011 (possibly 2010) is available for new B773ER operators...
86 Astuteman: If you're talking performance, then (IMO) I don't think the 777 can have any improvements made to it that will materially affect the difference (just
87 PM: The Trent 500 was not a very expensive development of existing technology - certainly cheaper than the -900 or -1000. And even with the modest sales
88 RayChuang: While Aer Lingus will go with the A350XWB, the big issue for them has to be whether EADS can get the funding for proper development of the A350XWB, es
89 BrianDromey: A few years back (when the 1st A321s were introduced to EI) I was allowed to visit the flightdeck. I remember the captain saying he prefered the Boei
90 PM: Fair point. You could add SQ, CX, perhaps EY and even - arguably - AC to that list and I'll be surprised if BA doesn't join them sooner or later. But
91 PanAm_DC10: Is it possible we will see this announced tomorrow? The following report contains a statement from Mr Gallois that Airbus expect they may have to anno
92 Pilot21: I think the timing between Airbus's mention of an order before Paris, and EI's mention of an announcement tomorrow is too much of a coincidence to be
93 EI321: More here: http://business.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=877312007 I cant confirm this story, but I suspect that the reasons suggested for a required ann
94 WINGS: Ahhh PanAm_DC10, what would we do without your constant hard work is gathering up breaking news articles. Very interesting news. It all does point to
95 EI321: If this is signed tommow, it is not unlikely thet EI could potentially be the second airline to put the A350 into service in 2013, after QR. AY have s
96 N1786b: Could it simply be this? - n1786b http://www.londonstockexchange.com/L...wsPopup.aspx?id=1498527&source=RNS Company Aer Lingus Group PLC TIDM AERL Hea
97 PM: Could be. But where's Aeroflot in the queue?
98 Slz396: Likely NOT, since that wouldn't require EI's Commercial Director to inform the press about an announcement which is of commercial importance up front
99 EI321: Aer Lingus being second to take delivery is speculation on my part, as Aeroflot etc have yet to firm their orders.
100 EI321: Another possibility: EI are due to announce the location of a new base soon.
101 Boeing767-300: Maybe but the 2 spool 115B creamed the Trent 500 in both power and efficiency. Don't doubt for a second than GE can't and won't build an extremely co
102 Danny: These are interesting times indeed. For the first time ever one of engine manufacturers is taking openly hostile position against one of the airframe
103 Jacobin777: ...I guess I might have been correct on this (certainly for now at least) fair use excerpt: " June 4 (Bloomberg) -- Airbus SAS, the world's biggest c
104 Stitch: I'm not sure who posted it, but someone noted that for long-range missions, the Trent 1000 has higher fuel burn then the GEnx because the pressure is
105 EI321: Current 777 discounts are very similar to A330 discounts, according to industry anaylists. Will 777 discounts go much further, and do they need to? 2
106 Stitch: I expect not since the 777 pretty much has the market to herself for the next five years which should help stabilize pricing. Also, as the A350 secur
107 Jacobin777: ..could very well be true Stitch ...hence why carriers might choose which engines is good for them (if two different engines are available)....a lot
108 EI321: I agree. I cant see any drop in demand for 777s and A330s for at least a few years.
109 PanAm_DC10: Well it's the day when they are due to make an announcement, not that they've declared exactly what that announcement will be. But the WSJ is of the s
110 OA260: If true its a great day for EI and Airbus .
111 PanAm_DC10: OA260 it is indeed true and as this thread is rather long and the full details are now known this will be archived and we ask that the conversation co
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From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, 
From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 23084 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23613 posts, 
From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 2986 posts, 
What exactly does this mean? They will possibly fly to Belfast from Dublin, or they will possibly start flying across the Atlantic from Belfast?
From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 41 posts, 
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