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Why No Really Early Flights?  
User currently offlineTonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1014 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6233 times:

Why won't airlines add really early flights in the summer to increase capacity to some of the most popular destinations?

I'm talking about flights between 1am and 4am.

Do you think airlines could make more money like this?

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6217 times:

Quoting Tonytifao (Thread starter):
Why won't airlines add really early flights in the summer to increase capacity to some of the most popular destinations?

I'm talking about flights between 1am and 4am.

Do you think airlines could make more money like this?

Not in the US. Remember, you have to check in at least 90 minutes prior to departure and you should be at the gate an hour before each flight. That means that pax have to get up at an ungodly hour (1-2 am), drive 30 to 45 minutes (including parking) to get to the airport and then wait another hour/hour-and-a-half to get to the gate and board the flight. Plus you also have to have people around to staff these flights. It would never work. No one would get up that early, even for a dirt-cheap fare. DL used to have lots of flights leaving destinations at around 5a about three years ago and even that has been dropped for a lot of the reasons I just discussed, not to mention the obviously bad load factors. I remember seeing about 35 to 40 people on these flights, max, each time I flew them.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6202 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6206 times:

Typically, you'll find many such flights leaving the west coast, aka "Red Eye" flights. They get the planes back to the east coast in time to turn to another morning flight headed elsewhere.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6194 times:

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 2):
Typically, you'll find many such flights leaving the west coast, aka "Red Eye" flights. They get the planes back to the east coast in time to turn to another morning flight headed elsewhere.

Yes, but they leave about 11p to get in around 7 to 8:30a. He's asking about flights leaving at 1a-4a, which would never work.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineLGAtoIND From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 490 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6173 times:

JetBlue has some weird flights going from JFK to places in the Carribean like Puerto Rico. I remember when I worked there seeing flights that would leave at 12 or 1am and arrive at 4 or 5am in the morning. Are people from that part of the world more likely to take flights at those hours?

User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6167 times:

1. Not many people want to do short-medium haul flights at these times. The longer "more popular" routes have red-eye flights already which arrive in the morning after sunrise, at a time the plane can turn around and fly out on an early route.
2. Who wants to start a vacation at 3-4am? Get to the airport at 11pm, takeoff 1am, arrive at strange airport 3am, arrange pickup or get to destination 4am. That would be one hell of a morning and I'd waste half the day sleeping to recover from all that which would really defeat the purpose of arriving and starting vacation with that extra day. For me it's much more manageable to arrive at 4-5am for the 6am flight out arriving in the early morning 8-9am, then I'm awake and can hang out all day.
3. Lots of people whine about airplane noise during daytime flights, alot of airports have noise restrictions. Flying in during these hours of the day the NIMBY's might actually start to have a case....well, maybe not.
4. Airlines would have to keep check-in desks staffed, the ramp staffed, ect for this time.

edit: God, I should have known by the time I type this 4 other people would have said the same points.

[Edited 2007-05-23 05:26:23]

User currently offlineJoemac547 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6167 times:
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For what it is worth, SFO and LAX have a bank of Asia departures during the summer months between 1 - 2am. SQ, CX, BR, CI, etc all leave after 1am. This is so they arrive around 6am. During winter months, due to headwinds I guess, these flights all leave before midnight.

[Edited 2007-05-23 05:35:00]

User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6135 times:

I'm flying out on AA tomorrow morning at 6 AM.
Pretty facking early right there.


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20354 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6125 times:

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 3):
He's asking about flights leaving at 1a-4a, which would never work.

Eastern used to have flights to their MCI hub departing around 2am from the west, and they were always packed. NW used to have a flight from LAX to MEM departing about the same time, and it was full every time I was on it as well.

Of course full planes don't always equal profits, but the MCI hub was said to be profitable for EA, so those flights must have worked for them. I'd much rather depart from the west at 2am and land in the east in the late morning to arrive when my hotel room stood a good chance of being ready, rather than a red-eye that landed at 6am.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineTravatl From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6100 times:

HP's LAS night hub. Oi....

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32599 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6058 times:

jetBlue operates flights to Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, and, during the winter, to Ft. Lauderdale with wierd schedules. Spirit airlines has a plethora of odd late night departures from the Caribbean to Ft. Lauderdale. Avianca this summer will have a flight leaving Miami for Bogota at 2.30AM.


a.
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3065 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6058 times:

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 7):
I'm flying out on AA tomorrow morning at 6 AM.
Pretty facking early right there.

Both AA and CO have 6 am-ish flights out of BHM...on Saturday mornings, no less. Both of these flights tend to be at or near capacity regardless of season.
I'm always too excited to sleep the night before a flight anyway, so why not get an early start?



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineDetroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6034 times:

well...i would think the ovbious reason would be beacuse of noise ordinances??? maybe i am wrong...

also a lot of international flights like mentioned earlier leave @ those hours. But honeslty travelling domestically, in most cases leaving at 3 am would get you to your desination between 4-6 am, and then you would probably spend the whole day sleeping, beacuse you stayed up all night.


not to mention all the additional costs incurred to the airline (bad load factor, more staff) and airport or faa (controllers).

All these make it a pretty bad idea



Boiler Up!!!
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8892 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6010 times:

Quoting Travatl (Reply 9):
HP's LAS night hub. Oi....

HP (now US) has pretty much done away with that late-night bank of departures. Last flight out are 1159p departures to OAK (A320), PSP (DH8), PHX (319), ONT (A320), SJC (CRJ-900), SMF (A320), SAN (B733) and SFO (A320). Of course, that last bank (1140p-1159p) has some really crazy arrivals, such as a 338a arrival at DFW, 217a at SLC, 209a at PDX, 230a at SEA. Still better than those 1-2a CRJs to COS and what not.


User currently offlinePiedmontINT From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days ago) and read 5921 times:

At MHK (Manhattan, KS) we have a 5:55a flight to MCI and it is PACKED every single day. 19 seats, 19 pax: every day. Also, because of the close proximity to Fort Riley about 10 minutes away, there are almost always some army guys with their 6 duffels crammed to the brim full of gear which they are required to take everywhere they go. So we end up pulling bags half the time, pretty crappy..

Back on topic, the flight from MHK to MCI is actually a stopover: it originates in SLN (Salina, KS) and leaves at about 4:30 or so. Talk about an early day...    But then again, hardly anyone flys from SLN to MCI anyway.

edit: the codes for mhk and sln didnt show up

[Edited 2007-05-23 07:08:35]

User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days ago) and read 5896 times:

Its not the way it's always been.

I have tried to find where the practice shifted, somewhere around de-reg I believe, airlines basically scheduled flights 24 hours a day, and I am not talking about trans-con red-eyes.

PSA once had a couple of flights between SFO and LAX that op'd after midnight.

AA used to run an 0315 ELP-SAT.

DL a 0115 from CVG to DTW.

EA a 0220 ORD to BHM and PNS.

BN had some 4 and 5 stop milk-runs southbound from ORD, terminating in HOU, that left at 0200, arriving around 0800.

I could go on forever.....but why it changed? Is anyone's guess.



Delete this User
User currently offlineEnginebird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days ago) and read 5873 times:

Quoting Tonytifao (Thread starter):
Why won't airlines add really early flights in the summer to increase capacity to some of the most popular destinations?

In Europe, many charter airlines going to the most popular holiday destinations do just that and even worse: many times (more often than not) they change departure times to an ungodly hour just a few days before departure. It often seems like they had never planed to leave at the time printed on the tickets and the law allows them to do so, as charter operators only have to guarantee the date but not the time of transport.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days ago) and read 5822 times:

Well, these flights simply dont exist btnw 1AM-4AM, to domestic destinations in the USA, but i have noticed from my AI traffic which is up to date, that many of the holiday airlines in Europe like TUifly, Air Berlin, seem to have flights really early like 3-4AM going to holiday destinations.

In the USA and many airports, NIMBY's have quite a lot of power thus preventing flights at ungodly hours. However, being the nut I am, i dont think i would mind a 747 waking me up from my precious sleep.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineTurkishWings From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1441 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days ago) and read 5814 times:

As Enginebird said, lots of charter airlines in Europe has crazy flying times as they want to utilize their aircraft as much as possible. Similarly, at SAW (the second airport of Istanbul) most of EasyJet and Germanwings flights depart at around 2-3 a.m. to arrive at their destinations very early in the morning. Air Arabia has a similar schedule too... Usually these flights are the cheapest option so people don't complain much  Smile

Again similarly, most of TK's Middle Eastern flights to CAI, BEY, AMM, DXB, KWI, BAH, AUH, DAM etc depart between 10 and 12 p.m. and arrives at these destinations between 1-2 a.m. On the way back, these flights depart between 2 and 4 a.m. to arrive in IST just in time to connect for European flights. But this is pretty much standard for most European airlines I believe...



Coffee - Tea or Me?
User currently offlinePgh234 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5758 times:

For spring break I flew B6 SJU-JFK. Our flight departed SJU at 2:00AM and arrived at JFK at 5:55AM. As stated previously, B6 has some pretty odd schedules during busy time periods. But, if they can make a profit on these flights, then more power to them.

-pgh234


User currently offlineTennis69 From Qatar, joined Apr 2007, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5739 times:
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I fly from the middle east to China/Korea and the US on average 15 times a year. All airports I pass thru, with the exception of the US, operate flights 24/7 and most are very crowded even at 0400.

User currently offlineEGTESkyGod From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1712 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5724 times:
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A lot of airports have curfews to abide by too...


I came, I saw, I Concorde! RIP Michael Jackson
User currently offlineHnlBoi From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5621 times:

We cant forget HA's Midnight madness flight which departs LAS at 2:45am and arrives into HNL at 5:45am. It was designed to give traverlers the most time in vegas. Its not a bad flight time as youre pretty much up at 12am in Vegas and youve worked yourself up to a point that all you want to do is pass out when you get to the Airport. You wakeup and viola youre back at home and ready to make it to work by 8. :O) Ive taken it twice and im starting to like that flight more and more.

User currently offlineDC10Widebody From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5602 times:

Quoting PiedmontINT (Reply 14):
HP (now US) has pretty much done away with that late-night bank of departures. Last flight out are 1159p departures to OAK (A320), PSP (DH8), PHX (319), ONT (A320), SJC (CRJ-900), SMF (A320), SAN (B733) and SFO (A320). Of course, that last bank (1140p-1159p) has some really crazy arrivals, such as a 338a arrival at DFW, 217a at SLC, 209a at PDX, 230a at SEA. Still better than those 1-2a CRJs to COS and what not.

I think that this works great at LAS, so many people are trying to come here cheap that they will hop anything at anytime to get them here. Do any other airlines at LAS schedule this late? I think maybe AS to SEA around 11 but that isn't too late.



Cheers thanks a lot.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32599 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5602 times:

Quoting EGTESkyGod (Reply 21):
A lot of airports have curfews to abide by too...

Not in the US. Curfews aren't the norm here. Off the top of my head, the only airports with a decent amount of traffic that I can name with curfews in the US are LGB and SAN. I think HPN, SNA, and DCA have them, too. Though again, it is the exception, not the rule.

[Edited 2007-05-23 10:24:29]


a.
25 UA777300ER : Last year, I had a flight from VIE to AMM (Amman, Jordan) on OS. It left VIE at 22:20 and arrived at 02:50 local time in AMM (the trip to the hotel to
26 Knope2001 : Except for a few sepcific exceptions including... --classic red-eye flights in longer markets departing around midnight and arriving around 6-7am --lo
27 DesertAir : I have taken 5:50 am flights out of SMF on WN and am scheduled for a 6:00 AM on September 3rd. As was mentioned, a number of airports located in urban
28 Phoenixflyer : I've flown CO from PHX to IAH at 1:20AM. It lands at about 6AM. And its on an ERJ so its by far my least favorite flight.
29 PNQIAD : Most US / Europe bound flights depart from BOM between midnight and 4 am - in fact late nights are the busiest in BOM...
30 IAHFLYR : There are quite a number of northeast area departures headed west to IAH, DFW, DEN HUBs that leave at oh dark 30....like PHL-IAH is something like 5:3
31 Tonytifao : I was just hoping that with reduced capacity this summer, some 1am flights could be added to popular destinations such as MCO, ATL, LAX, SFO, ORD, LAS
32 Viscount724 : Before deregulation, when US domestic fares had to be approved by the then-CAB (except intrastate operations) and all carriers operating the same rou
33 AH332 : Hi, I'm not sure if your question pertains only to the US, but for what it's worth LH's flights to ALG arrive at 12am/12:30am and leave at 2am for a 6
34 Coal : It seems most people here are talking about flights in the US, but in some parts of the world flights at those ungodly hour are the rule rather than t
35 Viscount724 : Also TUN. LH's FRA-TUN flight arrives at 0045 which isn't too bad but the return flight TUN-FRA is worse -- departs at 0345, arriving FRA at 0615.
36 N766UA : Most flights typically start to leave around 0530 or so. Anything earlier is not only too early for most people, but also there aren't any connections
37 Rafabozzolla : Culture clash. If you are Latin and have a flight at, lets say, 0600 AM and have to be at the airport at 0430, thus, leave home (or where ever) at 030
38 Bridogger6 : The first part of that statement is not entirely true. HP/US has a whole bank of flight from LAS to the east coast, they depart just before 2300, mos
39 Ogre727 : In December I took a Flight from LIM to SCL which left at 1:45 and arrived at 6:10. It was a HORRIBLE flight, absolutely full, and dreadful. If I have
40 Schooner : Well I am checking in at half midnight for a 0130 departure to Zakinthos Monday morning. Off duty at 1030 local......deep joy. Night flights should be
41 Planeguy727 : I was once a regular on the DL BWI-ATL flight at 0530. It was almost always above 90% full. I liked it because I would not be required to go to ATL th
42 JoePatroni : I know AC has a flight on Thursdays and Sundays to YEG from LAS. I think it leaves LAS at 2225 and arrives in YEG at 2:35am. That's crazy to me. I fe
43 VC10BOAC : That's the way it is supposed to be, but let's get real. I have to make an 8.30 am meeting at company headquarters in Detroit every Tuesday which mea
44 Cedarjet : So true. Early o'clock flights are very convenient from the point of view of queuing, buying a magazine, getting to the airport as well - by far in s
45 Burnsie28 : Actually 30 minutes in most places. Also, the early flights tend to be poorer performers, I wish NW would get rid of all the 5am departures that nobo
46 EXAAUADL : Back during regulation EA, DL, and NA all had late night flights to Florida from NYC and ORD. I also think DL had a 1am bank in ATL in the 1970s...rea
47 CitationJet : I flew LH from New Delhi to FRA last month. The flight left at 2:20 am. The airport was packed with a few dozen flights leaving Delhi between 11 pm an
48 Nkops : We have a Sat/Sun flight that leaves SJU @ 0130 and arrives ACY @ 0510... is that early enough?? It doesn't do as well as they hoped so it will go bye
49 Marcg11 : Never quite understood this one....Who wants to get in at 3 in morning? Flight # 212 Depart Las Vegas, NV Date 5/24/2007 Gate Scheduled 11:59 PM Actua
50 Sea2Pdx : Check out ANC. I know AS has a few flights that leave in that timeframe heading down to SEA and from what I've seen, they're always packed - only way
51 USFlyer MSP : @MSP, we have: arrivals: 205AM PHX on SY 249AM PHX on US 358AM LAS on US departures: 515AM PHX on US 530AM PHL on US 530AM IAH on CO 530AM ATL on DL 5
52 ArcrftLvr : I'm not sure the airports can justify the costs to remain open.
53 EDICHC : QF 20 MNL-BNE-SYD Departs MNL 1840 Arrives BNE 0330 Departs BNE 0510 Arrives SYD 0630 I flew on this flight throughout recently, and what surprised me
54 Post contains images FlyingColours : I love operating night flights, seemed every week I would end up on the friday MAN-TFS-MAN, check in close to 20:00z and get back to base around 07:3
55 Post contains images Schooner : Then you're insane . Cheers.
56 Post contains images Rwy04LGA : I hear THAT! At LGA, you're right. Again, at LGA, it's the rule, and they have a bit more than a 'decent amount of traffic'.
57 Post contains images FlyingColours : What?! It maybe boring for you guys up front but it gives us in the back a chance to sit down and chat (on longer flights), and gives some of us an o
58 Post contains images Schooner : Nothing to do with that Phil, I always enjoy crew coming up, its just the nasty effects that nights wreak on my body clock! Judging by your ability t
59 777WT : Don't forget most hotels you can't check in before 11am...
60 Cairo : Eastern during the 1980s operated their Moonlight Madness hub operation at IAH (and elsewhere?) which saw perhaps a dozen L1011s and A300s arriving an
61 ANCFlyer : Not only AS, but UA, CO, NW, DL, US(HP), F9, AA . . . . In order to get pax to the major hubs for each of these carriers, there is a large bank of de
62 VC10BOAC : Yes, every week. The morning flight is a 757 and the evening flight back is always a DC 9. Anazing how much power those old birds have at lift-off. F
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