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Court Rules SIA A380 Pilots Should Be Paid More  
User currently offlineBells From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 163 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4729 times:

A court has ruled that Singapore Airlines must pay its A380 pilots more than 747 pilots (see link).

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...80-pilots-should-be-paid-more.html

Guess that's fair - the aircraft is bigger and carries more passengers? Regional jet pilots get paid less than mainline pilots too. Do you think this will set a precedent for other A380 operators?

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDistantHorizon From Portugal, joined Oct 2005, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

Quoting Bells (Thread starter):
Do you think this will set a precedent for other A380 operators?

No.

European labor law (the one I know better) is a very diferent one.
And I do have serious doubts that more passangers should automatically implie more money. But I would have to read the entire sentence to elaborate on this.

Regards
DH


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6961 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

The real issue is the nonsense of pilots demanding more money for the spurious reason of carrying more passengers. At best the issue should be decided by years of experience, not nominal capacity. Apart from anything, the argument that flying a 400-seater carries more responsibility than a 300-seater is fatuous. Does that mean the pilots concentrate more?

Anyway, if the number of pax is the defining factor how about this: pilots should be paid according to the bodies behind them on a given flight. A full SQ 777-300ER will be carrying more passengers than a half-empty A380. Ergo, the 777 pilot should be paid more on that day.

Problem solved.


User currently offlineBasefly From Denmark, joined Apr 2007, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4383 times:

I dont think more money is fair, do rail operators pay the locomotive drivers on the basis of how many carriages they are pulling? and bus drivers on how many pax can fit in the bus?.

??

[Edited 2007-05-25 15:38:41]


757/777-A340/A380, Love them.
User currently offlineFilejw From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4370 times:

Although most pilot unions like to use the term productivity when they talk about bigger a/c in reality we are just trying to get what we consider the fair share of a bigger pie.Think of it like a salesman.The more you sell / produce the more you earn.An as far as responsibly goes the only person I really care about is me so if I'm OK the other 425 folks should be OK too.LOL

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6961 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4323 times:

Quoting Filejw (Reply 4):
pilot unions like to use the term productivity



Quoting Filejw (Reply 4):
The more you sell / produce the more you earn.

Which illustrates the nonsense perfectly. Does the guy who refuels a 747 get paid more than the one who refuels a 737? Does the check-in agent who boards 100 passengers get more than the one who boards 70?

And what about the pilot flying 150 people in a 737 on one-hour hops three times a day as opposed to the pilot who flies 300 on a 747 from Europe to South America twice a month? It rather depends how you care to measure the fairly dubious concept of 'productivity'. (I work in education. How do you measure the 'productivity' of a teacher?)

I remember sitting in the cockpit of a BA 747-400 somewhere over northern Brazil more than ten years ago. The pilot was moaning that he could barely get in the minimum number of landings a month to keep within the regulations because he made so few flights.

But I bet he earned more than his colleagues flying 737s who landed several times a week!


User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4300 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Anyway, if the number of pax is the defining factor how about this: pilots should be paid according to the bodies behind them on a given flight. A full SQ 777-300ER will be carrying more passengers than a half-empty A380. Ergo, the 777 pilot should be paid more on that day.

if this were the case I wouldnt want to be a freighter pilot ? Not much money in carrying your co-piot around in a 747.



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2839 posts, RR: 45
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4034 times:

Quoting Filejw (Reply 4):
Although most pilot unions like to use the term productivity when they talk about bigger a/c

A 747 Captain IS more productive and therefore valuable to the airline than a 737 Captain on the basis of ASMs generated.


User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 584 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

PM

...Apart from anything, the argument that flying a 400-seater carries more responsibility than a 300-seater is fatuous...

No, it is correct. More lives and a more expensive aircraft mean a greater responsibility.


...Does that mean the pilots concentrate more?...

No of course not. You appear to be making a common mistake by confusing Responsibility with Responsible Behaviour.

I concentrated, acted and flew just as responsibly on my very first flight in command of a small aircraft as I do now, in command of a B747, and I know my colleagues on smaller aircraft behave every bit as responsibly as I do.

What is undeniable is that the responsibility I carry, as a pilot of a much larger aircraft is now much greater.

Best regards

Bellerophon.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6961 posts, RR: 63
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3950 times:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 9):
greater responsibility

What exactly do you mean by those words? Is 'responsibility' something that comes in measurable units that can be added and multiplied? The more I stare at those words the more hollow they seem.

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 9):
What is undeniable is that the responsibility I carry, as a pilot of a much larger aircraft is now much greater

"Undeniable"? If you say so... I still don't get it. I mean, I understand why it suits pilots' unions to make that argument but I find it intellectually unconvincing.

And I wonder how much 'responsibility' the driver of a London Underground Tube train carries (and how much money he makes). He has far more lives in his hands than you do - even on a 747. But I suppose there are 'reasons' why that's an invalid argument...  Yeah sure

Ultimately, pilots just want more money. I can understand that. But I still find their window dressing pretty spurious.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7488 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3931 times:

So the question becomes, does the London Underground Tube Train "driver" make more money than a bus driver, and if so why, does he have a more responsible job, how about a taxi driver, same difference? Whatever the reason why a train "driver" or "operator" whatever technical term you want to use makes more money than a cab driver or bus driver, apply the same principle to planes big and small. Do freight pilots make more than pax pilots, in general, no.
Airlines with lots of segments usually limit their flight crew in the amount of segments that they can fly, in terms of limiting the number of take offs and landings they perform, the industry already recognizes that those in routine operation are some of the most dangerous times requiring full attention of flight crew, some may even offer segment pay if over the minimum stated, the airline business does have some unique qualities.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6961 posts, RR: 63
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

The truth is, of course, that society rewards occupations and professions on a pretty arbitrary basis that has much to do with historical accident and prejudice and very little to do with logic or rationality. Why does someone creating cigarette commercials earn far more than an ambulance driver? Who is more valuable to society? Whose job is more (cough) responsible?

Pilots are where they are in terms of perceived status and income more by luck than anything. Retroactive attempts to justify large salaries (and to make them still larger because they have 10% more passengers) are understandable and, to protect their own self-respect, pilots will believe their own propaganda, but there is rather little intellectual respectability in their case.


User currently offlineRacercoup From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

It would seem to me not to be a matter of passenger load, or number of take off's and landings but of proficiency and supply and demand. If it takes more experience or training etc. to fly an A380 than the job should pay accordingly.

It the above were true there would very likely be less pilots qualified to fly an A380, also creating a higher pay situation. Any thing else is union type rubbish IMO


User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 584 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3665 times:

PM

...Is 'responsibility' something that comes in measurable units that can be added and multiplied?...

Yes.

The number of passenger lives being the main one, followed by the capital investment in the aircraft, as well as the minimum insurance cover for third party damages. If it helps, try thinking of it in terms of insurance "liability". How much damage could one mistake cause or cost?

Whilst I accept that both act equally responsibly, if you think the pilot of a Beech Baron carries as much responsibility as the pilot of a B747, then we must agree to differ. I've done both, and by every measurable standard they don't.

In most capitalist countries, those employees who carry greater responsibilities, and who have greater experience, earn higher rewards than those who don't.


...But I suppose there are 'reasons' why that's an invalid argument...

Yes.

Firstly your argument takes no account of supply or demand, the length and cost of training, both to the employer and the employee, the qualifications required to be accepted for training, the standards demanded during training or the course failure rate. All of these will have an effect on the salary level an employer is prepared to offer.

Secondly, whilst I understand and agree with your underlying sentiment, comments about whose job is more valuable to society are meaningless when society is not paying the wage bill, a private employer is.

The fact is, you earn what you negotiate, not what you deserve.

That may be a harsh truth, and it isn't fair that nurses and teachers earn so little whilst CEOs of failing companies are rewarded with millions, but that's life.

If my employer had lots of well qualified pilot applicants to choose from, pilot salaries would fall. It doesn't, and so must pay what the market demands to attract the calibre of recruit it wants. As it is currently making a profit, I don't see pilot salaries falling in the near future in my company. One bad year of losses, or an accident, and that could all change, who knows!

What I do know is that what I deserve to earn won't come into it.

Finally, you may think that the new SQ salary of roughly US$84,000 pa for an A380 Captain is too high, but it is lower than some of SQ's competitors are currently paying their B747 F/Os. On those rates, I think SQ have got a bargain, and will maintain their competitive edge in crewing costs!

You earn what you negotiate, not what you deserve.

Best regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9533 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3620 times:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14):
How much damage could one mistake cause or cost?

And how many potential mistakes are there to be made? I'm neither an expert in flying airliners nor in driving underground trains but my guess is that that there are several more ways to kill a lot of people accidentally while flying than while driving an underground train.


User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1991 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3592 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
And I wonder how much 'responsibility' the driver of a London Underground Tube train carries (and how much money he makes). He has far more lives in his hands than you do - even on a 747. But I suppose there are 'reasons' why that's an invalid argument...

When a bus has a problem, you pull over to the side of the road, when the underground train has a malfunction (at worst you de-rail, doubt everyone would die. In an aircraft when something goes wrong, the pilot has to correct the problem, try and find somewhere to land AND land the aircraft. When was the last time a bus driver has had to go in every 6 months, and pass a simulator ride and if you fail you loose your job?? I doubt it... Though the actual flying is fairly simplistic most of the time, when things go bad, shit really hits the fan.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6961 posts, RR: 63
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 13):
The fact is, you earn what you negotiate, not what you deserve.

Thank you. We agree. That's what this whole thing is about.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9210 posts, RR: 76
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3440 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 10):
"Undeniable"? If you say so... I still don't get it. I mean, I understand why it suits pilots' unions to make that argument but I find it intellectually unconvincing.

In the real world, does a manager of 6 people get paid the same amount as a manager of 60 people ?

In your profession, would a senior university professor get paid as much as a first year kindergarten teacher ?

Quoting PM (Reply 10):
And I wonder how much 'responsibility' the driver of a London Underground Tube train carries (and how much money he makes). He has far more lives in his hands than you do - even on a 747. But I suppose there are 'reasons' why that's an invalid argument...

I find that "intellectually dishonest", train drivers in a lot of countries do get paid better than pilots, in terms of shift work, lots of industries pay a their shift workers a lot better than airlines do, in fact a truck driver at a mine with little training, no ongoing medical requirements, no ongoing proficiency checking, and being away from home base very little will in many cases earn more than a pilot.

I know in Hong Kong, pilots are at the lower end of pay scales considering what other expats earn, in fact some teachers in Hong Kong get paid better than pilots.

The consequences of a pilot making a mistake are more severe than most other industries, pilots never have a control of when an emergency may occour, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZwsYtNDE

From reading your comments, I think you have very little idea of what a pilot actually does, or what training and ongoing proficiency is required to maintain their position.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6961 posts, RR: 63
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
In your profession, would a senior university professor get paid as much as a first year kindergarten teacher ?

Obviously not. But you are missing the whole point of my argument. An experienced pilot is certainly worth more than a recently-qualified one.

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
the issue should be decided by years of experience, not nominal capacity

So a 55 year-old pilot with many years of experience on different types in different circumstances should be paid more than a First Officer in his first year of flying with just a few hundred hours on one model.

But is a 55 year-old with 30 years of experience worth more this month flying an A388 than he was last month flying a 744? To stretch your chosen analogy further than it can really go, the argument that "size matters" means that your young Kindergarten teacher teaching an imaginary class of 90 students might well command/demand a higher salary than the senior professor droning on to a room with three people in it!

I've argued that it is "fatuous" to argue that another 10% of passengers (or whatever) = 10% more "responsibility" = more dosh.

You - and others - then imply that I'm ignorant of the qualifications and training needed to be a pilot. You're trying to attack me for opinions I don't hold and have not expressed.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
From reading your comments, I think you have very little idea of what a pilot actually does, or what training and ongoing proficiency is required to maintain their position

Hmmm. Then you're wrong but I won't let it bother me.  Wink (My dad was a pilot, my wife worked for Swissair for ten years and I know several pilots [two on 747s] quite well.) I'm sorry if my message is an unwelcome one but I can do no better than to quote an unusually honest pilot above.

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 13):
You earn what you negotiate, not what you deserve.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9210 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
But is a 55 year-old with 30 years of experience worth more this month flying an A388 than he was last month flying a 744? To stretch your chosen analogy further than it can really go, the argument that "size matters" means that your young Kindergarten teacher teaching an imaginary class of 90 students might well command/demand a higher salary than the senior professor droning on to a room with three people in it!

I've argued that it is "fatuous" to argue that another 10% of passengers (or whatever) = 10% more "responsibility" = mordosh.

I did not say anything about number of passengers, I said the number of people one needs to manage. A senior professor has more responsibility in terms of management than a kindergarten teacher regardless of the class size, a A380 pilot has more staff in their charge, more equipment to manage than a 737 pilot, they are the front line managers for the airline.

In terms of flying, A380 would be no harder than a 340 (just a little harder to taxi), but you would know that a position description for a pilot, the flying aspect is only one of many functions.

Just as a matter of interest, of the pilots you know, what is the divorce rate ? Out of the teacher you know, what is the divorce rate ?

What is the going rate to be away from ones family ?

What is the going rate to for constant jet lag ?

What differences do you see in todays industry than when your father was a pilot ?



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6961 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3381 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):
Just as a matter of interest, of the pilots you know, what is the divorce rate ? Out of the teacher you know, what is the divorce rate ?

'Bout the same. High. Sad.  Sad

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):
What is the going rate to be away from ones family ?

What is the going rate to for constant jet lag ?

If it's such a rotten job then don't do it. Become a London Underground Train driver. They sleep in their own bed every night.  Wink

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):
What differences do you see in todays industry than when your father was a pilot ?

Some better, some worse. I'd ask him for his own opinion but he's dead.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6961 posts, RR: 63
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3321 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):
Just as a matter of interest, of the pilots you know, what is the divorce rate ? Out of the teacher you know, what is the divorce rate ?

What is the going rate to be away from ones family ?

What is the going rate to for constant jet lag ?

Wait a minute, you're shifting the goalposts again. I'm trying to fence with you while cooking dinner (Risotto al limone: wonderful!) so I walked into that one.

My argument is whether pilots deserve more for flying a somewhat bigger plane. So these arguments are meaningless. Is a pilot more jet-lagged because he's just landed an A380 than he would be if he was flying a 747? Does he miss his family more? Is he more likely to get divorced?

AGAIN: we're not debating whether pilots deserve to be paid highly, simply whether or not the number of seats behind them is a sensible measure of how much they're worth.

The argument that an A388 pilot deserves to be paid more than a 747 pilot is, er, questionable.

(Great recipe, by the way...)


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9210 posts, RR: 76
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3305 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 21):

AGAIN: we're not debating whether pilots deserve to be paid highly, simply whether or not the number of seats behind them is a sensible measure of how much they're worth.

Who said anything about seats ? you seem to keep bringing that one up ....

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):
I did not say anything about number of passengers, I said the number of people one needs to manage. ............................. a A380 pilot has more staff in their charge, more equipment to manage than a 737 pilot, they are the front line managers for the airline.

The position by ALPA-S was ""Pay [should be] based on responsibility and what you are accountable for," it adds.", not the seats.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles.../212675/sia-in-a380-pay-talks.html



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6961 posts, RR: 63
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3293 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 22):
Who said anything about seats ?

Er, the thread starter? Isn't that where threads, er, start?

Quoting Bells (Thread starter):
Guess that's fair - the aircraft is bigger and carries more passengers?


User currently offlineUAL777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1560 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3214 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
The real issue is the nonsense of pilots demanding more money for the spurious reason of carrying more passengers. At best the issue should be decided by years of experience, not nominal capacity. Apart from anything, the argument that flying a 400-seater carries more responsibility than a 300-seater is fatuous. Does that mean the pilots concentrate more?

Anyway, if the number of pax is the defining factor how about this: pilots should be paid according to the bodies behind them on a given flight. A full SQ 777-300ER will be carrying more passengers than a half-empty A380. Ergo, the 777 pilot should be paid more on that day.

The most experienced pilots fly the bigger airplanes. The two go hand in hand.

Quoting Basefly (Reply 3):
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I dont think more money is fair, do rail operators pay the locomotive drivers on the basis of how many carriages they are pulling? and bus drivers on how many pax can fit in the bus?.

No. But being a locomotive operator or bus driver is not even close to being an airline pilot.



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
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