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Why EL AL Cargo Different Livery?  
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

Why does ELעל ALאל cargo have a different livery that the rest of EL AL fleet. They seem to have the old EL AL livery. Does this and the fact its only writtten cargo have something to do with security? However I guess that by this time, maany people know its an EL AL a/c.
Could anyone clarify this question

thanks

Regards
BM



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[Edited 2007-05-26 14:17:30]


A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCO7e7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2848 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3752 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
Does this and the fact its only writtten cargo have something to do with security?

it could be.... but i think it might have something to do with $$$$$$... you know LY is not in the best financial shape right now.....


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Many threads have been started on this subject over the years, the last one was just a few months back, livery can be changed after aircraft get D check, I think they dont want to change livery as they do not see Cargo branch important enough for promoting their brand, its alot about marketing too.

User currently offlineHeliflyerPDC From Belgium, joined Sep 2006, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3683 times:

I heard it had to do with some type of security.

Quoting 777way (Reply 2):
they do not see Cargo branch important enough

I thought that for many airlines the cargo delivers a very big part of the profit

interesting subject, I'm curious what the answer will be  Wink

grtz PDC



grtz PDC
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 939 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3669 times:

At least this one has the old livery. Some of the other cargo aircrafts are simply white.

Quoting 777way (Reply 2):
I think they dont want to change livery as they do not see Cargo branch important enough for promoting their brand,

Are you joking? The cargo branch keeps this airline alive. Take the cargo from them and that is the end of them.



Long live the B747
User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

At least some of them are getting the new titles similar to the passenger operation:


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7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7989 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

Cargo planes often have simplier liveries for this reason: lower weight, which means lower fuel bills and/or a smidge more cargo capacity. Why do you think NW's 747-200F fleet has a bare-metal fuselage?

User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3547 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 6):
Why do you think NW's 747-200F fleet has a bare-metal fuselage?

The new look NWA cargo fleet is painted as per the passenger operation.


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7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineHeliflyerPDC From Belgium, joined Sep 2006, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3537 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 6):
Why do you think NW's 747-200F fleet has a bare-metal fuselage

what about the 3 special scheme's?

grtz PDC



grtz PDC
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3429 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3500 times:

I believe it has to do with security. The cost of providing the levels of security for cargo ops as well as commercial ops would be prohibitive. I think the cargo planes do not wear the titles for security reasons so they are less of a target.

Just a guess though!
AA1818



“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

This had been discussed to death before. This is all about security, not $$$ or weights or anything like that. Elal cargo flys all over the world, including many places that Israel has no official ties with and at times out-right hostile countries. There is no need for a big Star of David "bullseye" on the tail, it is sometimes dangerous enough as it is.

The cargo branch is in fact critical to LY and is a very high producer of revenue but again, it does not need the extra advertising on the livery.



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User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3349 times:

Those 742's are pretty old are there any plans to get used 744s etc for EL AL cargo?

User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2804 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

Quoting EGNR (Reply 5):
At least some of them are getting the new titles similar to the passenger operation:

Yes, but the plane on the picture has the original logo...which LY has stupidly changed. The "new" one doesn't yet appear on the airplanes (it will surely on the new 777s Sad ) but is already used for all marketing items.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 1):
but i think it might have something to do with $$$$$$... you know LY is not in the best financial shape right now.....

"not in the best financial shape"...indeed....and that would have been yet another good reason not to change the logo...those changes are very costly. And in the present case, it is a totally unnecessary move because the original logo is MUCH MORE beautiful than the new rounded version.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 9):
I think the cargo planes do not wear the titles for security reasons so they are less of a target.

I don't think security has anything to do with this question, cargo airplanes are anyway not an "interesting" target for terrorists, since there are no passengers to harm...
But it might be a useful camouflage...in order not to be identified when taking off and landing in the midst of Shabbat at TLV...

Quoting Avi (Reply 4):
At least this one has the old livery. Some of the other cargo aircrafts are simply white.

It seems the whole cargo fleet is in the process of getting that wonderful "all white" livery... Here is 4X-AXF in its old and new liveries...:


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I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 12):
I don't think security has anything to do with this question, cargo airplanes are anyway not an "interesting" target for terrorists, since there are no passengers to harm...
But it might be a useful camouflage...in order not to be identified when taking off and landing in the midst of Shabbat at TLV...

You deffinitly have a point with the Shabbat as Elal Cargo does fly 7 days a week but it is mostly about security and just staying low profile. LY has enough to worry about when these planes land at some hostile regions, there is no need for added worries from someone seeing the israeli flag coming in to land from outside the airport and deciding to do something about it. They may not have passengers on them but they are a symbol, not to mention the Israeli flight crews.



146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
User currently offlineMarambio From Argentina, joined Oct 2004, 1160 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3229 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 10):
Elal cargo flys all over the world, including many places that Israel has no official ties with and at times out-right hostile countries.



Quoting WJ (Reply 13):
LY has enough to worry about when these planes land at some hostile regions

I have been looking for any LY Cargo hostile destination and thus far found nothing. Its destinations are all in countries Israel has fully diplomatical ties with, and some are also served by LY passenger service - with the full Star of David, "Israel Airlines" livery. Besides, LY Cargo's airplanes are 4X-registered and a minimum research would tell anybody that they are Israeli.

I kinda like TodaReisinger's theory of Shabbat-camouflage, though.

Saludos,
Marambio



Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo.
User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3196 times:

Quoting Marambio (Reply 14):
I have been looking for any LY Cargo hostile destination and thus far found nothing. Its destinations are all in countries Israel has fully diplomatical ties with, and some are also served by LY passenger service - with the full Star of David, "Israel Airlines" livery. Besides, LY Cargo's airplanes are 4X-registered and a minimum research would tell anybody that they are Israeli.

LY cargo airplanes fly to many more destinations on an ad-hoc basis than they may publish on some schedule. The 4X designation does stand but it's hardly as visible in-flight as a big flag painted on the tail of a 747. Maybe it's tough for people to comprehend that Israel and Israelis are still not very welcome in significant parts of the globe.



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User currently offlineAA87 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3114 times:

I recall asking an LY crew/friend about this years ago and being told it was the sabbath issue, not security. EL Al does not fly sundown Fri-Sat, huge political issue (they recently violated a few times for op reasons and some ultra-orthodox leaders were advocating a punitive boycott). To avoid this issue many years ago, they "separated" cargo ops, and I understand they even used the "Cargo Air Lines" call sign so they could honestly deny that "El Al" was flying on the sabbath.

To any Israelis in the know, pls confirm or correct if I'm mistaken.


User currently offlineStarglider From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 678 posts, RR: 44
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3019 times:

Quoting AA87 (Reply 16):
EL Al does not fly sundown Fri-Sat, huge political issue (they recently violated a few times for op reasons and some ultra-orthodox leaders were advocating a punitive boycott). To avoid this issue many years ago, they "separated" cargo ops, and I understand they even used the "Cargo Air Lines" call sign so they could honestly deny that "El Al" was flying on the sabbath.

Is this limitation, not flying on the sabbath, only applicable to EL AL? If not, it wouldn't matter what titles you paint on the aircraft as long as the registration starts with 4X.

The cargo paintscheme is probably just a practical one. Cargo aircraft are subject to more wear and tear (higher utilization) than the passenger variants. A simpler paint scheme means less downtime to touch up or replace.


Regards,
Starglider


User currently onlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2519 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2947 times:
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Quoting WJ (Reply 15):

----JUST because they are Jewish--------what a stupid world we live in----duh.
(Most people never stop and think about what it would be like to be hated JUST because of who they are-------but this belongs in a different topic-----)

I

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
LY cargo airplanes fly to many more destinations on an ad-hoc basis than they may publish

This is true.

Quoting WJ (Reply 10):
This had been discussed to death before. This is all about security

 checkmark 



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2804 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2850 times:

Quoting Starglider (Reply 17):
Is this limitation, not flying on the sabbath, only applicable to EL AL? If not, it wouldn't matter what titles you paint on the aircraft as long as the registration starts with 4X.

The cargo paintscheme is probably just a practical one. Cargo aircraft are subject to more wear and tear (higher utilization) than the passenger variants. A simpler paint scheme means less downtime to touch up or replace.

The legal ban introduced in 1982 was only for LY, since at the time it was anyway the only State owned international airline. The charter subsidiary Sun d'Or was also not concerned, neither Arkia or Israir. Nowadays, it's not a legal issue anymore, since LY is no more a State owned entity, but, as recently witnessed, the pressure of the ultra religious passengers is strong enough to oblige LY not to fly on Shabbat...


Re the practical side of the livery...I think LY's current livery is not that complicated or heavy to apply and maintain.....



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2823 times:

Quoting Avi (Reply 4):
Quoting 777way (Reply 2):
I think they dont want to change livery as they do not see Cargo branch important enough for promoting their brand,

Are you joking? The cargo branch keeps this airline alive. Take the cargo from them and that is the end of them.

No need to get worked up, it was just a thought.

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
LY cargo airplanes fly to many more destinations on an ad-hoc basis than they may publish on some schedule

Why no pictures in the database of these adhoc flights more so at hostile places.

Quoting AA87 (Reply 16):
I recall asking an LY crew/friend about this years ago and being told it was the sabbath issue, not security. EL Al does not fly sundown Fri-Sat, huge political issue (they recently violated a few times for op reasons and some ultra-orthodox leaders were advocating a punitive boycott).

Ridiculous, it was reported on BBC that the Orthodox are now seeking a seprate bus trailer for women commuters in Tel Aviv like they have in Iran.


User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2778 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 20):

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
LY cargo airplanes fly to many more destinations on an ad-hoc basis than they may publish on some schedule

Why no pictures in the database of these adhoc flights more so at hostile places.

Maybe because some of these places dont have much of A.net presense? Look, I wont pretend to know where LY cargo planes have ended up in the world but if you go just by where the scheduled service is, of course you will only see AMS, JFK, LHR, TLV and a couple more. There are not too many pictures from remote locations in Pakistan, Iran, Uganda, Indonesia, Sri Lanka and god knows where else. Israel always ends up sending rescue teams to disaster zones around the world and its not always locations where ground security can be set up quickly to mirror standard LY stations. Why is it so difficult to understand that this is just another precaution?

Cheers.



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User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 939 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 20):
No need to get worked up,

I didn't nor I didn't try to offense you. If you did, I apologize.



Long live the B747
User currently offlineA380US From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2575 times:

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 1):
you know LY is not in the best financial shape right now.....

who is?



www.JandACosmetics.com
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 939 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2556 times:

Quoting A380US (Reply 23):
who is?

You can find some but El-Al was badly hurt from the unexpected war last summer in Israel.



Long live the B747
25 ZANL188 : Don't forget certain liveries are not acceptable for overflight in some countries.
26 BMED : Could be because security is very tight at these kind of places?
27 A380US : so other airlines that have quit some trafic in TLV should also be such as BA LH and especially 6H and IZ
28 TodaReisinger : The (disastrous) war of last summer is BY FAR not the only reason for El Al's catastrophic situation. The airline was already in deep trouble long be
29 Avi : Of course LH, BA and everybody else lost traffic too but you can't compare it (a single destination out of many – no matter how important it is) to
30 JFK787NYC : EL AL does fly cargo to arab countries. There Cargo business is very profitable they have something like three flights daily from JFK. They have a sta
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