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When Can We Expect LAX-GRU?  
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7822 posts, RR: 25
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 3928 times:

I was wondering when (if) we might expect to see LAX-GRU on TAM. I know they just reacently announced a codeshare with UA. This will be great especially for people continueing on to HKG or NRT on UA. Not to mention a possible codeshare with NH to NRT. Currently there is no nonstop from GRU to the west coast. RG seemed to have problems makeing the route work with the tag-on. Perhaps TAM's approach could be better by letting other airlines continue on with a codeshare to Asia.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3856 times:
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Quoting LAXdude1023 (Thread starter):
I was wondering when (if) we might expect to see LAX-GRU on TAM.

You can expect this flight to be announced later this year.
TAM for sure is waiting for the FRA authorization, but without 7 weekly frequencies, i believe that LAX will become an option in order they can use 1 of the 5 planes (3 A332 + 2 A345) they should receive during the next 5/7 months.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3855 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 1):
You can expect this flight to be announced later this year.
TAM for sure is waiting for the FRA authorization, but without 7 weekly frequencies, i believe that LAX will become an option in order they can use 1 of the 5 planes (3 A332 + 2 A345) they should receive during the next 5/7 months.

as they will get the A345, wouldnt be a GRU-Australia route a big money maker if the would start the route with the A345???



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3769 times:
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Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
as they will get the A345, wouldnt be a GRU-Australia route a big money maker if the would start the route with the A345???

I don't think so Avianca. A route to Australia will rely basically on students, tourists and connections to southeast Asia. Brazil-Australia links nowadays aren't that big to justify a flight. This is also because we see better opportunities like LAX, BCN and other markets to which a direct link with Brazil would make more profits without undermining Australian market.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 3725 times:

Werent Ocean Air interested in the route via Bogota?


Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 3705 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 4):
Werent Ocean Air interested in the route via Bogota?

Yes, they still are and have the rights to operate it. I understand that sometime round September is when we can expect GRU-LAX, lthough the intermidiate stop is not clear yet. It might be MEX (that OceanAir starts in July). BOG is the ideal one for them, but in order to be able to have traffic rights, a revision in the bilateral between Colombia and Brasil is required, as Varig currently have all available rights.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3618 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 5):
Yes, they still are and have the rights to operate it. I understand that sometime round September is when we can expect GRU-LAX, lthough the intermidiate stop is not clear yet. It might be MEX (that OceanAir starts in July). BOG is the ideal one for them, but in order to be able to have traffic rights, a revision in the bilateral between Colombia and Brasil is required, as Varig currently have all available rights.

If LAX-GRU happens, it will be one or the other. Ocean Air and TAM aren't both going to do it. Also, Mexico doesn't give out fifth freedom rights outside of extreme situations, so stopping Mexico would be pointless.



a.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7822 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3604 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
If LAX-GRU happens, it will be one or the other. Ocean Air and TAM aren't both going to do it. Also, Mexico doesn't give out fifth freedom rights outside of extreme situations, so stopping Mexico would be pointless.

I would imagine that LAX-GRU would need to be nonstop, otherwise it seems rather pointless.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3594 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
If LAX-GRU happens, it will be one or the other. Ocean Air and TAM aren't both going to do it. Also, Mexico doesn't give out fifth freedom rights outside of extreme situations, so stopping Mexico would be pointless

Sure, it would be one or the other, and OceanAir have the route, so the'd better hurry to open it!
MEX as a stop was actually mentioned by the former CEO, Mr Ebner, as an alternative to" BOG in co-operation with AV", which to me would make a lot of sense! But whether they can work around the aviation authorities is another matter. Revision of the Brasil-Colombia bilateral would be required, but this is the season for them, so it could happen.

If they could have OceanAir metal doing GRU-BOG-LAX 3 times a week, AV would have some free capacity to use elsewhere.

AV actually used to operate LAX via MEX and even CUN at some point. I have no idea if they had traffic rights, or if it was just low demand that made it sensible to have a combined flight.

GRU-MEX is about a 12 hour flight, would a 763 be able to do it non-stop?


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3579 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
If they could have OceanAir metal doing GRU-BOG-LAX 3 times a week, AV would have some free capacity to use elsewhere.

isnt the BOG-LAX AV flight not to good booked in order to combine it??? as I heard the loads (also the cargo loads are very very good)



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3574 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
AV actually used to operate LAX via MEX and even CUN at some point. I have no idea if they had traffic rights, or if it was just low demand that made it sensible to have a combined flight.

They didn't have traffic rights, at least not when the route ended.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):

GRU-MEX is about a 12 hour flight, would a 763 be able to do it non-stop?

Yes, easily. Though it isn' 12 hours at all. It is 9.5 hours.



a.
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3567 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):

GRU-MEX is about a 12 hour flight, would a 763 be able to do it non-stop?


Yes, easily. Though it isn' 12 hours at all. It is 9.5 hours.

Sorry, I meant GRU-LAX, and hence the question as to whether the 763 could do it non-stop


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3544 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 11):
Sorry, I meant GRU-LAX, and hence the question as to whether the 763 could do it non-stop

Yes, it can. 763s have done longer routes, like YYZ-NRT.



a.
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7633 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
Mexico doesn't give out fifth freedom rights outside of extreme situations, so stopping Mexico would be pointless.

Especially when it comes to destinations in the U.S. because of our 2-or-3-carriers-from-each-country-in-a-specific-city-pair clause in the bilateral. See what happened to MH and its MEX-LAX-TPE-KUL flights. MH was stealing lots of pax from AM, MX, DL and UA, so the Mexican government (trying to protect AM and MX) terminated MH's fifth freedom rights.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3371 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 11):
Sorry, I meant GRU-LAX, and hence the question as to whether the 763 could do it non-stop

For a brief period prior to 9/11, Varig was up to two daily LAX services.. morning MD-11 which continued to NRT or NGO and a late afternoon/early evening 763 flight. So the type can definately handle the route (with minimal cargo).



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3359 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 14):

For a brief period prior to 9/11, Varig was up to two daily LAX services.. morning MD-11 which continued to NRT or NGO and a late afternoon/early evening 763 flight. So the type can definately handle the route (with minimal cargo).

The second flight was from Lima, not Sao Paulo. That flight was license to lose money for the short time it lasted.



a.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7822 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3356 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 14):
For a brief period prior to 9/11, Varig was up to two daily LAX services.. morning MD-11 which continued to NRT or NGO and a late afternoon/early evening 763 flight. So the type can definately handle the route (with minimal cargo).

LAX can definately handle a nonstop flight to GRU. My guess is that TAM will come in at some point in the next year to 18 months or so. They are codesharing with UA which should help a bit. With LAX-HKG coming back, LAX could serve as a transfer point to both NRT and HKG.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 6 days ago) and read 3323 times:

I guess that OceanAir would be interested in moving cargo as well as people, since they have said there would be a stop.

Their delayed start to international operations makes me worry. There does not seem to be a clear strategy. I wonder if they should sort out their domestic operation before embarking on international expansion. If anything, having a daily to BOG to make for good connections with AV. That 767, and the one allegedly coming in July, could be used to boosts routes out of BOG instead.


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 11):
Sorry, I meant GRU-LAX, and hence the question as to whether the 763 could do it non-stop

See Below. Varig operated LAX-GRU nonstop in 2001 with the 767-300. The 767-300 has the legs. Look for example at the fact that AZ operated SFO-MXP with the equipment. That flight on AZ was nearly 12 hours eastbound, and 13 westbound.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
The second flight was from Lima, not Sao Paulo

That you may want to re-check. In 2001 Varig was doing a number of interesting things with its Los Angeles schedule. There was a mid-day departure on a 767-200 on a routing LAX-LIM-GRU. There was a 2pm departure on a MD-11 on a routing LAX-GRU-GIG. As well as a 8pm departure on a 767-300 nonstop LAX-GRU-GIG. They may have not all operated at the same time, but I clearly remember these flights being operated at sometime or another in 2001. The 767-300 was an additional segment used from December 2000? to March 2001?.

-JD


User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 18):
See Below. Varig operated LAX-GRU nonstop in 2001 with the 767-300. The 767-300 has the legs. Look for example at the fact that AZ operated SFO-MXP with the equipment. That flight on AZ was nearly 12 hours eastbound, and 13 westbound.

That has been clear from a few replies back. The point is how much cargo can they carry.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 18):
As well as a 8pm departure on a 767-300 nonstop LAX-GRU-GIG. They may have not all operated at the same time, but I clearly remember these flights being operated at sometime or another in 2001.

 checkmark  Thanks for the back-up.

I also clearly remember the flights for two reasons.. 1) it was always parked down at the remotes, and 2) cargo used to be bumped all the time due to payload restrictions as it was nonstop to Brazil.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3180 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 20):
1) it was always parked down at the remotes

I remember a few more things about them as well.      

As you clearly stated the GRU-LIM-LAX 767-200 service was indeed parked at the remote gates. I remember the first time I saw that flight, I was perplexed. I was thinking why is an RG 762 sitting here at the remote gates. A colleague of mine said that RG had a new service with the small 767-200 on GRU-LIM-LAX. He said he didn't expect it to last long, but the main reason was to tap into the Peruvian to Japanese market connecting in LAX to the VARIG GIG-GRU-LAX-NRT/NGO service. The flight would arrive at about 9am, and depart at about 115pm.



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.


As you will see the routing on this 767-200 was GRU-LIM-LAX

The other thing was about the late evening LAX-GRU-GIG service operated with the 767-300, that flight always operated out of the same gate as LAX, this I am sure of because the gate rotations at LAX were AZ MD11 to MXP, then another aircraft, then RG 763 to GRU. The flight departed at 720pm or so in the evening. The return was a daylight flight from GRU to LAX.

Of course at that time we were also seeing Korean 744 to GRU, and JAL 744 to GRU, VASP sadly had already left the Los Angeles market. Those were the days!

-JD

[Edited 2007-05-28 18:29:09]

User currently offlineAaway From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1561 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3149 times:

I may be able to contribute to the discussion of RG's LAX schedule during Sum '00 - Sum '01. In a "past-life", one of my duites was compiling LAX passenger flight schedule info for LAX's contract interline baggage operation. Some of that old schedule info I've archived.

During Summer, 2000, RG operated two LAX-GRU (M11 eq) nonstops. RG837 departing 14:00, and RG841 departing 21:00. Both were planned to operate into the Winter '00/'01 schedule, with RG841 being bumped up by 1 hour.

Unfortunately, I do not have schedule info from the Oct. '00 time change through the Apr. '01 time change at my immediate avail.

The initial Summer, 2001 schedule, effective with the April time change, shows RG8837 (M11) departing 14:00, and RG8845 (B762) departing at 13:39 on a LAX-LIM-GRU-GIG routing. RG8845 operated through 9/11.

The 20:00 n/s with the 763 was instituted much later - after RG withdrew the LAX-NRT-LAX nonstops.



With a choice between changing one's mind & proving there's no need to do so, most everyone gets busy on the proof.
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3140 times:

Quoting Aaway (Reply 22):
after RG withdrew the LAX-NRT-LAX nonstops.

The Tokyo servcie was not dropped until Jan 06
Varig Ceases NRT Ops; Begins MUC (by PPVRA Jan 15 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Had nothing to do with the pre 9/11 added 763 service, which basically served as the 2nd GRU flight supplementing the NRT MD-11 flight.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAaway From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1561 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 23):
The Tokyo servcie was not dropped until Jan 06
Varig Ceases NRT Ops; Begins MUC (by PPVRA Jan 15 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Had nothing to do with the pre 9/11 added 763 service, which basically served as the 2nd GRU flight supplementing the NRT MD-11 flight.

I recall when RG dropped LAX-NRT-LAX, thank you. I'm calling into question these recollections of RG B763 service ex-LAX during 2001. If this a/c was regularly scheduled, then it must have been during the Feb - Apr period. Historically, RG had a sked change during February.

I'll confirm if I can find archived Winter '00/'01 LAX schedule info.



With a choice between changing one's mind & proving there's no need to do so, most everyone gets busy on the proof.
25 Post contains links and images Laxintl : From old Flyertalk posting I can determine that RG added the evening LAX-GRU nonstop on July 15th, 2000 coinciding as "Brazil celebrates its 500th ann
26 AF022 : This flight won't work connecting many passengers beyond LAX to the Orient because the US authorities force all Brazilians to have a visa for US trans
27 Hardiwv : Pax traffic to Asia from Brazil via the US (with 2001 rules for transit visa) is showing signs of strong recovery. JAL has excellent loads on its GRU
28 WorldTraveler : Japanese don't need a US visa to transit the US and many Brazilians that might use the flights already have one. the visa issue is not as big of a dea
29 Hardiwv : 100% correct, especially if you refer to the high yielding pax. But there is no doubt as well that with the new US transit visa rule introduced in 20
30 Bicoastal : UA flies to Tokyo from LAX, too. TAM and UA recently announced a codeshare agreement, so maybe LAX-NRT will be in TAM's future partnership with UA.
31 C010T3 : Oh, I do have a visa and that does not stop me from swearing at the US government every time I have to renew it.
32 AF022 : JAL flights are likely full of Japanese who don't need visas. Brazilians have likely all moved to European flights.
33 MAH4546 : Not really. Brazilians need visas, but for wealthy Brazilians who are flying these routes, it really isn't much of a problem. Many probably have exte
34 C010T3 : What do you mean?
35 MarioSPlane : You are right. And the visa is not that big of a deal even for not so wealthy brazilians. Actually, the complaints about US visas made by brazilians
36 MAH4546 : Some Visas last for an "x" period of time. You get a visa, and that visa is valid for all travel until it expires. You don't necessarily need to get
37 C010T3 : Why do you have to treat me like that? Have I done anything to you? I was just asking, because I didn't understand if you were talking about renewed
38 MAH4546 : Treat you like what? You asked a question, I answered it. Why do you have to snap at me? I'm sorry if I misunderstood your question, but it obviously
39 C010T3 : Treat me like I a retard. I don't think anyone in this thread showed any signal of lack of knowledge concerning the concept of multiple-entry visas.
40 FLYGUY767 : I am new to this forum but I am really shocked by what you have said about MAH4546. He seems to know a lot about what he is talking about. I was read
41 C010T3 : Well, I never accused him of not knowing what he is talking about. I just felt that he was patronizing me and the fact that he just ignored what I ha
42 MAH4546 : I was in no way, shape, or form patronizing you. I obviously had no idea that you had a visa. I don't read every single post and memorize every detai
43 Hardiwv : Agree. You were not patronising! Dont worry! Your posts are extremely relevant. This is correct. However, for those that have to apply for VISA or re
44 C010T3 : OK. Everything is settled.
45 LipeGIG : Guys, after RG dropped LAX service last year there are some improvements that we may take a look and shows how is being possible a profitable LAX flig
46 C010T3 : Good reminder!
47 Rafabozzolla : With all do respect Lipe, you might be in the financial industry and be up to date with many business prospects, but I'm in the auto industry (and be
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