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Dornier 428 Type Certificate  
User currently offlineFD728 From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 136 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4237 times:

Flight published an article recently about the company 328 Support Services in Oberpfaffenhofen delivering a 328 Envoy to an operator named Mikado. I became interested and looked up the website of the company converting and supporting the 328 fleet. They state that they also own the type certificate for the 428. It suprises me that they mention it. Could it be in the back of their minds that they might eventually launch the 428 and resume production of the 328? Does anyone have any insight into that issue?

Regards, Manu

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4149 times:

I would be more than surprised if there comes some live back in the Do328. Swiss government owned RUAG Aerospace bought the Do328 type certificates, but only for the turboprop one. The Do-Jet is in somebody elses hands. As far as I know, there is still a small number of finished, new, never delivered Do-Jet's around. So the one shown delivered now might be one of these.

Those aircraft's normally show quite a good value compared to the price, as they sell real cheap. But it's only of interest for somebody using it as corporate transport, flying s small number of hours a year, as operating cost is expensive. This is also confirmed if you look up, how many Do's are sitting parked somewhere, waiting for new homes.

The Do's are fine aircraft, having excellent performance. Unfortunately those planes can only be used if the operator has a niche market, asking for this plane. If you need to transport a small number of passengers over a relatively long sector and runways are short, then the Do can be a good option, as long as the tickets can be sold for good prices. If this is not the case, you rather go for a Q300, which costs about the same on sectors up to 300 miles, but can carry 60% more passengers. Speed isn't an issue either on those short flights.

So I personally think, the Do's will be around for a while with operators flying corporate or group charters, some of them with regionals being in need of the Do's performance for mentioned reasons, but re-production I do not consider.

Cheers
Legacy135  Wink


User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2373 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4041 times:

There is still, as far as I know, a whole fleet of 328Jets sitting in MYR waiting for a home after ACA got rid of them. All that coastal air can't be good for them, either.


I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3903 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 1):
I would be more than surprised if there comes some live back in the Do328. Swiss government owned RUAG Aerospace bought the Do328 type certificates, but only for the turboprop one. The Do-Jet is in somebody elses hands.

No, IIRC RUAG bought the Do228 type certificate. The TC's for both prop and jet belong to 328 Support Services.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2245 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3676 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 1):
as operating cost is expensive.

Are you thinking of the jets or is the prop also pricey to operate and maintain?



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3534 times:

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 4):
Are you thinking of the jets or is the prop also pricey to operate and maintain?

Either of them, as it's basically the same aircraft. The jet just consumes even more fuel with little more speed. About the Turboprop: I remember quite some operators who were widely using the Do328-Prop who went bankrupt: AirEngiadina, KLMAlps, AAA, Gandalf..... Horizon on the other hand had them for a short while only, so they are still with us....

Cheers
Legacy135  Wink


User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2245 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3353 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 5):
The jet just consumes even more fuel with little more speed. About the Turboprop: I remember quite some operators who were widely using the Do328-Prop who went bankrupt: AirEngiadina, KLMAlps, AAA, Gandalf..... Horizon on the other hand had them for a short while only, so they are still with us....

Hmmm... very interesting, thanks, so what would be the ''ideal'' 30-seater then? A J41, Saab 340 or perhaps Embraer Brasilia?



Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3263 times:

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 6):
Hmmm... very interesting, thanks, so what would be the ''ideal'' 30-seater then? A J41, Saab 340 or perhaps Embraer Brasilia?

IMO the Saab, it can have 34 seats vs. 29 (?) on the EMB-120 and J41, and I don't think it has much higher operation costs, if at all.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3222 times:

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 6):
Hmmm... very interesting, thanks, so what would be the ''ideal'' 30-seater then? A J41, Saab 340 or perhaps Embraer Brasilia?

If you need 30 seats, I think the SAAB 340B is still the best choice. It's rock solid, has no corrosion problems, a nice cabin, can be equipped with an active anti noise system and is over all real cheap to run.
I do not know much about the J41 but normally those exotic planes aren't first choice to operate, even if the performance and that stuff looks good. Spare parts and costs is then normally another story.
The EMB 120 is quite cheap as well and in normal operation somewhat faster in cruise than the SF34. But passengers normally feel more comfortable in the SAAB than in the EMB.
I probably would even go for a E135 before I would go for a Do328 jet, for the simple reason of it's operation costs. The E135 is more expensive per hour, this is sure, but look at the speed. So if the flight asks for a jet, I think the E135 goes at jet speed and is a simple, very maintenance friendly design also at least looking to have some re-sale value in couple of years. About the Do's re-sal, who knows....

Cheers
Legacy135  Wink


User currently offlineSuisjes From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3080 times:

HELLO, this is my first post but, have been reading Aners for the last 3 years, so be easy.
The Fairchild Dornier name still exists but, only with the plane there is'nt any plans for a production of a 428.
As for the ex 328s that WERE in MYR (Avcraft) there is 6 or so left. Most of the 40 or that were there have been sold to either Sun Air, Vision, Comtran International Ltd. or Sky Ways which has got a good little payment for the 428's that never got delivered and they had on order.The Ex owner of The Factory was jailed in Germany for tax reasons He had bought Avcraft and had ops in dayton/akron Tyler Tx. Germany and MYR. And he bankrupted on it all. And now is a somewhat silent partner with a company, which has the newest dorniers they now operate 2 Vision air and Skyway s is probably the biggest operators in the US.


User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2373 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3037 times:

Quoting Suisjes (Reply 9):
Skyway s is probably the biggest operators in the US.

It's "Skyway," and they *are* the largest 328Jet operator in the US, because I'm fairly certain they're the *only* operator of the type, at least under Part 121 operations.

P.S, Welcome to the A.nets! Big grin



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2328 posts, RR: 38
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

Regarding the Prop, I believe the largest operator was PSA Airlines (US Airways Subsidiary, now flying CRJ's).

Jet wise, I love that bird. I flew on it with AC Jet (ACA) as DL Connection when I worked for DL. On the shorter runs (less than 500NM) it was a blast to fly. I really dont see much of an advatage over the turboprop except that passengers for some reason feel safer on a jet. No moving parts visible.

I still prefer turboprops.

Regarding the "best" turboprop on the market in that range, who knows. I worked on Saab 340A's which were POS's. (granted ours had 40,000 cycles and sat in Puerto Rico for over a year...hot and humid will pay a toll on the birds).

I still prefer the Dornier 328, but it does have a higher operating cost than the Dash-8's, Saab's, and J41's. I dont know much about EMB-120's.

Anywho long live the Do-Jet and Dornier. Theyre great birds!

ATCT



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineSuisjes From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

I agree with ATCT they are some of the best aircraft that I have ever worked on and are similar in some ways to the saab we always had inverters crapping out and the down side is there is a pretty long wait, upto six months, for some things so in that aspect I would say that the support for them just is'nt there but, they do sell and from what I heard they were only selling the ones that were parked at MYR for around 2 million a piece and they sold them the word on the street now is
Vision is trying to buy some from the Asian market. And Comtran is working with Vision to get there birds C checked since over three quarters of the 30 they bought were ferry flighted so, I wouldnt be surprised if the Dornier will fly again and not just by SKYWAY!


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

Quoting FD728 (Thread starter):
They state that they also own the type certificate for the 428.

Since the Do428 was never built or certified.. no TCDS exists. They are not issued until the airplane has past testing is approved to fly passengers by the FAA or CAA.

My guess is they own the rights to produce it.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineSkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2777 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 10):
because I'm fairly certain they're the *only* operator of the type, at least under Part 121 operations.

In the US, yes we are the only Part 121 operator. Also I think Skyway barely has the lead with the the biggest fleet in the US. There are two charter companies that operate at least 8 328Jets each.

Quoting JBo (Reply 2):
There is still, as far as I know, a whole fleet of 328Jets sitting in MYR waiting for a home after ACA got rid of them. All that coastal air can't be good for them, either.

Actually most if not all of them are spoken for these days. I read an article about AvCraft 2 months back and they said only about 10-12 frames weren't taken yet. So by now I'm sure they're close to being done with those abused birds.


User currently offlineSuisjes From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

I know JAFFE has got a few

User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

Quoting FD728 (Thread starter):
They state that they also own the type certificate for the 428.

Would make a nice sized turboprop, actually a right sized for the regional markets. So would a re-ramp up of the 328. Anything under 50 seats in the RJ line between BBD and EMB is effectively dead. Airlines need a replacement TP in this size category, if not a lot of communities are going to lose service in the next 5-7 years.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2635 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 16):
Would make a nice sized turboprop, actually a right sized for the regional markets.

The ATR-42 and DHC8-100/200 can do that job.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineSuisjes From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

The fifty seater market has been flooded Continental express owns like 228 + 30 of the smaller embraers what companies are finding which, I don't know about commercial but the corporate flying is taking whole new heights with the companies like net jets there is new ones launched everyday there is no money in atr flying or EAS government subsidized flying.
But as far as the do's go there is yet bit more to come. ATR's are old. Unless your referring to the cheap ones that no one will touch except for Fed Ex becuase they have the money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


User currently offlineSuisjes From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 10):

I am sorry, but vision is now a 145 and if I've not mistaken going to be if not already in the near future a 121 currently they are a charter but that operates as a 121 because they only have 30 seat s which is the operating max. Just go on there website. They own more than you think and have big plans for the future. Which I might add has a very smart man running which is more than what the other airlines, or soon to be airlines have going for them, I agree it is a niche market these dorniers but, the people buying know with whom they are dealing.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2567 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 17):
The ATR-42 and DHC8-100/200 can do that job.

You see anyone making massive orders for them? No. Why? Speed. Take the 328 and 428 and clean it up for a next gen TP engine and you have speed and efficiency that the ATR-42 and DHC-8-100/200 can't match.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26718 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2544 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 7):

IMO the Saab, it can have 34 seats vs. 29 (?) on the EMB-120 and J41, and I don't think it has much higher operation costs, if at all.

The E120 holds 30 seats.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 8):
But passengers normally feel more comfortable in the SAAB than in the EMB.

I have flown both and there isn't a big difference in comfort. On the other hand, you are in the airplane longer in the SAAB, which reduces the comfort of that aircraft.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2505 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 20):
You see anyone making massive orders for them? No. Why? Speed. Take the 328 and 428 and clean it up for a next gen TP engine and you have speed and efficiency that the ATR-42 and DHC-8-100/200 can't match.

Sure, but such an engine isn't on the horizon now, maybe it'll be in 10 years. Besides, on short routes, speed isn't that important.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2455 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 22):
Besides, on short routes, speed isn't that important.

Depends on where you're going. If you have to use a 50 seat jet on a thin regional route to a small market that's 400 miles from the hub, speed does matter.


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