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FR's Early 738s  
User currently offlineVS773ER From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 279 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5848 times:

Hi,
I remember reading on here a while ago that some of FR's early 738s will be sold on or even retired soon (!?) EI-CSA etc. How true is that?
A friend of mine who flies them quite alot said he flew on EI-CSA on Friday and it looked a little tired inside. Knowing how hard they are worked it didn't surprise me though.

Anyone know the lifespan for these under FR's workloads??
Assuming they would be sold on - who would want them?

Cheers

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5826 times:

Interesting question.

IIRC the first 5 were to be phased out later this year. Most (if not all) the FR birds have had winglets fitted, and the eyebrows plugged as well.

My guess is that charter operators or LCC's upstarts, or even in Asia, or the former Eastern Bloc would happily take these birds once they have undergone a D check and cabin refurbishment. Although the hours and cycles would be relatively high, they shoud still have plenty of life left in them yet, I would imagine.

It would also seem to me that FR maintain there aircraft very well, as tech problems seem to be rare.

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5794 times:

Indeed there will be enough carriers that want to have them. Although heavily used, they are still relatively new planes.

Basically choices about operating newer or older aircraft is all about the balance between capital cost and maintainance costs.

- When your company has a very good credit ratio (like FR has, and also carriers like LH, SQ, AF-KL, WN) the cost of capital (mortage) for new aircraft is relatively low. When you are a start-up, or when you aren't in a financial position like FR (several American legacy carriers, Alitalia, Olympic and many carriers in the rest of the world) borrowing money to buy new aircraft is relatively more expensive. So having a new 738 will cost FR less per month, than it will cost a carrier like DL; simply because FR can get a better mortage.*

- When your company uses the aircraft very much (like FR, up to 6 to 10 cycles a day), your maintaince costs are higher per month than when you fly longer sectors. (easy to understand) So Ryanair will have fairly high maintance costs on their 738s (expressed per month), compared to for example DL, as DL flies longer sectors and thus less cycles per day.

So considering these two issues together, it shows that the used 738s will have better value-for-money at a carrier like DL, than FR. FR, with their mortage rates, can better buy new aircraft than spending a lot on maintainance, while many other carriers, that spend less on maintanance anyways, love to have cheaper aircraft to save on mortage.

The tired-looking interior here doesn't make any difference - any carrier taking these aircraft will just replace it with their own seats and easily enjoy the aircraft for 15 more years.

* DL here is just taken as an example; I assume that DL, after their financially hard periods, will not have a similar credit ratio as FR has; if anyone here has numbers that prove differently, I'm glad to be corrected.


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12466 posts, RR: 37
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5787 times:

Poor maintenance would be a very false economy for any low cost carrier, because - quite apart from the regulatory implications, part of the attraction of acft like the 738/319/320 is their reliability and that only be maintained if the aircraft are well looked after.

I actually flew from DUB to MAN on Monday last, 21/5, on EI-CSD, which is one of the first four; it had winglets (and even the "eyebrow windows" above the cockpit had been "plugged"), but it still had the old interior with cloth seats. It didn't look too tired inside, but it was quite a surprise, having flown on VERY new aircraft on my previous visit home in March, to be flying on such an old acft (by FR standards!)


User currently offlineFlyKev From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 1382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5767 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

How many old cloth interior 738's are there left with FR now?

Kev.



The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
User currently offlineVS773ER From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 279 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5642 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 2):
(like FR, up to 6 to 10 cycles a day

6-10 cycles a day! I thoght it may be in that figure as I crudely worked out. I'm presuming every ac in the fleet is worked 7 days a week? Time is money and all.

No doubt the same is true with easyJet then? Haven't they started selling their early NGs now?
I assuming their planes have been worked in the same way.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5554 times:

Quoting VS773ER (Reply 5):

6-10 cycles a day! I thoght it may be in that figure as I crudely worked out. I'm presuming every ac in the fleet is worked 7 days a week? Time is money and all.

Yes every a/c is worked 7 days a week, and is flying almost continously. For example, a typical day scheme for a LTN based a/c is:

DUB 0625-0915
NOC 0940-1250
REU 1340-1825
GRO 1855-2325

So 8 cycles a day. Not all aircraft operate 4 flights a day, it largely depends on the location of the base. From NYO for example, especially after they drop GDN and KUN, their destinations are pretty far away, so they make 3 flights (6 cycles) a day, for example:

CIA 0645-1305
NRN 1355-1755
HHN 1820-2240

Many of the UK bases have either 4 flights a day (combinations of Ireland and France, for example) or 3 (italy / spain). AFAIK the ORK a/c operates 5 flights (10 cycles) every day.


User currently offlineSpencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5492 times:

And then they're all tucked in at night time!  Smile Seriously though, about 10 a/c will be WFU this year, including the Cable and Wireless one.
Spencer.



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5364 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 6):
AFAIK the ORK a/c operates 5 flights (10 cycles) every day.

The ORK based aircraft operates 6 flights (12 cycles) per day. 5X ORKDUB and a single ORKLGW.

Pretty good utilisation there. Strangely enough the delays never seem to be more than 5-10 minutes. I guess they must pad teh schedule quite a bit.

Quoting Spencer (Reply 7):
Seriously though, about 10 a/c will be WFU this year, including the Cable and Wireless one.

The C&W logojet? I would not have thought so. I thought that this one was only delivered in 2003? FR's first -800s arrived around 99/2000 IIRC. But correct me if I am wrong!

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineMusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5307 times:

I have to agree that FR seems to e maintaining their planes well. As from their website, it seems most delays are due to slot restrictions etc and are seldom due to technical problems. Was told by a member on the forum that they employ SR Technics for maintenance. Are they french by the way?


Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5261 times:

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 8):
The C&W logojet? I would not have thought so. I thought that this one was only delivered in 2003? FR's first -800s arrived around 99/2000 IIRC. But correct me if I am wrong!

Per Airfleets.net, EI-CSC has been delivered 28/06/2003. But it has not always been in Cable & Wireless colors:
http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...&truecount=true&engine_version=6.0


User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1524 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5251 times:

Ei-CSC was delivered on 28/06/1999 according to airfleets

User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5213 times:

Quoting F.pier (Reply 11):
Ei-CSC was delivered on 28/06/1999 according to airfleets

Of course, you are right. I looked it up, then saw again the 2003 number again, and typed it wrong. Thanks for correcting.


User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5193 times:

For some reason, I think Delta should take on some of the 738s FR will phase out.

They will nicely complement their -832 models and can free up 757s for expansion  twocents 



http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlineBmiBaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1810 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5165 times:

EI-CSA/B/C/D/E/F/G/H/I/J are due to be retired this year, with a further 10 (EI-CSM - EI-CSW) to be retired in 2008. 19 more are still set to be delivered in 2007, so thats an fleet increase of nine aircraft for the rest of this year.

User currently offlineRom1 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5144 times:

anyone knows the bases of these 10 aircraft to be retired? DUB, STN, etc?
thanks

Rom1


User currently offlineBmiBaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1810 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5080 times:

Quoting Rom1 (Reply 15):
anyone knows the bases of these 10 aircraft to be retired? DUB, STN, etc?

They're always moving around.


User currently offlineRyanair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

Quoting Rom1 (Reply 15):
anyone knows the bases of these 10 aircraft to be retired? DUB, STN, etc?

Yeah they do move around, however I have noticed that some bases do get newer aircraft deployed than others - LPL for example always seems to get the newer 738s EI-DH/DL/DP.

737

[Edited 2007-05-27 23:08:12]

User currently offlineVS773ER From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 279 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4999 times:

Quoting BmiBaby737 (Reply 14):
EI-CSA/B/C/D/E/F/G/H/I/J are due to be retired this year, with a further 10 (EI-CSM - EI-CSW) to be retired in 2008. 19 more are still set to be delivered in 2007, so thats an fleet increase of nine aircraft for the rest of this year.

You mean retired from the fleet of retired from service altogeher?
Surely not that latter, 8yrs of service is miniscle for a 737, even though the cycles are high. Even BA/NWA earliest 320s lasted longer and I was under the impression the overalll lifespan of an a320 was shorter anyway.

Do EZY still have all their original 73's? Have any of them been retired of sold?

Cheers


User currently offlineRyanairCRL From France, joined Dec 2005, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4936 times:

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 9):
Was told by a member on the forum that they employ SR Technics for maintenance.

all bases have got their own maintenance. a few bases in UK and IRL have FR mechanics and GRO as well.
In CRL it's Sabena Technics, in MRS it's Penauille and so on.
But there isn't one particular maintenance company for all FR aircrafts.

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 9):
Are they french by the way?

SR Technics is Swiss I beleive but couldn't say for sure.



http://flyingtom.myphotoalbum.com
User currently offlineBondman From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4825 times:

All the EZY -300's are gone and a few of the NG's have already left the fleet.
Bondy  Wink


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4478 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 10):

Per Airfleets.net, EI-CSC has been delivered 28/06/2003. But it has not always been in Cable & Wireless colors:

Ah, I assumed that Boeing had painted the aircraft in those colours @ delivery. Obviously not!

Quoting Ryanair737 (Reply 17):
Yeah they do move around, however I have noticed that some bases do get newer aircraft deployed than others - LPL for example always seems to get the newer 738s EI-DH/DL/DP.

Perhaps this has something to do with the way aircraft are cycled through the system on a daily/weekly/monthly basis? Maybe LPL is one of the first destinations on the list.

Quoting VS773ER (Reply 18):

Do EZY still have all their original 73's? Have any of them been retired of sold?

Nope, all of the 732 "original" in the sense that they were the aircraft U2 started ops with are gone, all of the 733s are gone (a lot of the birds inherited from GO are now with bmibaby). Some of the 73G are gone as well. I want to say GOL took some?

Quoting RyanairCRL (Reply 19):
SR Technics is Swiss I beleive but couldn't say for sure.

I believe this is correct. SR being the code for the old Swissair. I believe that SR Technics is a similar concept to LH Technic, being a spin off from a parent line. Similarly "Swissport" is another remnant of the SAir Group.

Someone mentioned DL, now that would be interesting. There is nothing wrong with these birds that a good refurb would sort out. Mechanically they are fine, as seen above FR pays the best in the business to look after its fleet. Hell, if I was looking for 738s in a hurry, at a good price, I think I'd definately go "kick the tyres".

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8675 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4363 times:

I'm willing to bet some Chinese operators pick them up or DL.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineBAe146TOM From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 228 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4135 times:

Quoting Ryanair737 (Reply 17):
Yeah they do move around, however I have noticed that some bases do get newer aircraft deployed than others - LPL for example always seems to get the newer 738s EI-DH/DL/DP

As crew for ryanair i no that there is no space for new aircraft to be based here at STN as the expansion here is long overdue... so all new aircaft will be shipped around a bit and placed in yes other bases such as LPL and bristol (lol don't no the code  Wink )

Tom


User currently offlinePilot21 From Ireland, joined Oct 1999, 1384 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

Another factor in the FR aircraft rotation policy (i.e. replacing relatively new aircraft with brand new ones) is that for the 1st 3yrs after delivery, all maintenance on the aircraft is free, as part of the package FR negotiated with Boeing. If this is an airline standard, then cool, if not then it was part of the deal MO'L did after 9/11.

Either way, when you are selling these birds after only 8yrs, and you not had to pay anything for their up keep for the 1st 3yrs, and they have still got decent value, why wouldn't you move them on!



Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
25 BmiBaby737 : From Ryanair service. Boeing 737-800's I'm sure would be snapped up (purchased) by other airlines relatively fast!
26 Post contains images Airbuseric : BRS KL might get them cheap Would be a good replacement for their old 733's and 734's *LOL*
27 Trintocan : Those FR planes would certainly be sold on fairly easily so no, I doubt you will see 738s being scrapped so soon. BTW, BRS is the code for Bristol Int
28 Post contains links N774UA : According to this thread http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eral_aviation/read.main/3430430/1/ EI-CSA/B/C/D/E are going to the new Varig. Regards
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