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AeroFlot Claims They Would Rather Buy Boeing 787  
User currently offlineJFK787NYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 12795 times:

Aeroflot Would Rather Have Boeing 787 Dreamliners

Boeing Co. intends to launch first B787 in 2008; its current portfolio includes orders for 584 planes made by 45 companies.


Link Here

http://www.kommersant.com/p-10800/r_529/Boeing_787_tests/

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17446 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12672 times:

Quoting JFK787NYC (Thread starter):
Aeroflot Would Rather Have Boeing 787 Dreamliners

I don't blame them. I'd rather buy an aircraft that I can have in a couple years rather than a concept that I may or may not have in five years. The Russian government, however, has different plans Smile.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12567 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
I'd rather buy an aircraft that I can have in a couple years rather than a concept that I may or may not have in five years.

Not even the Big US carriers can get deliveries in a "COUPLE " of years , for aeroflot , they should be looking at something like 2012-2014 deliveries , which isnt far off from the A350 EIS ( ie. if they got some very early slots for the -900)

Quoting JFK787NYC (Thread starter):
Aeroflot Would Rather Have Boeing 787 Dreamliners



This is rather stupid title for a story , when they placed orders for 20 787's they also intended to purchase 20 350's . I dont recall ever there intentions to go for an all boeing fleet. Moreover the article isnt quoting any airline official . It should be dismissed as totally useless.


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1583 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12436 times:

The photo in that article doesn't look like a 787 -- it has large winglets.

User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12364 times:

The whole article is a very amateuristic piece, nobody is being quoted and no names are mentioned. Not to mention the english editor who screwed up big time... Here's one of the two sentences that make up the article.... Decide for yourself  Wink

"Dreamliner is able to carry 200 passengers to 300 passengers for 6,500km to 16,000km. It consumes 20 percent less of fuel than the similar aircraft, but its load capacity is 45 percent higher than that of the rivals."



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User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12224 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 3):
The photo in that article doesn't look like a 787 -- it has large winglets.

Its a 787-3.

Theres more reliable articles on wikipedia than this.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5695 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11919 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
The Russian government, however, has different plans

With so much politics involved they have to make up their mind about who they hate more - EU or the US.


User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11846 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
"Dreamliner is able to carry 200 passengers to 300 passengers for 6,500km to 16,000km. It consumes 20 percent less of fuel than the similar aircraft, but its load capacity is 45 percent higher than that of the rivals."

This is totally redicules. I could written a better article and posted it on my web site without any references, and then someone would take it as genuine.
I think the whole topic should be deleted.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17446 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11615 times:

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 2):
Not even the Big US carriers can get deliveries in a "COUPLE " of years

You think Boeing would tell AA, DL, and UA, that they can't have 787s until 2014?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 6):
With so much politics involved they have to make up their mind about who they hate more - EU or the US.

This is true, and right now it's the US apparently Silly



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30910 posts, RR: 87
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11587 times:
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SU's principles have said that they prefer the 787, but they're not the ones making the deal so their opinion doesn't matter.

User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11587 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
You think Boeing would tell AA, DL, and UA, that they can't have 787s until 2014?

I never aid that . All i said was that even if AA , DL etc wanted they could not get any meaningful slots in 2009 ( 2 years or couple of years from now) , the sweet spots are reserved for them surely , and they should be around 2011 , 2012 , 2013 timeframe specially with the increase in production post 2011 . Boeing has had a bad expereince holding slots for SU so dont expect them to go out of the way !


User currently offlineEatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11487 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
SU's principles have said that they prefer the 787, but they're not the ones making the deal so their opinion doesn't matter.

That's true. But the real question is if it should matter.



Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30910 posts, RR: 87
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11090 times:
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Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 11):
That's true. But the real question is if it should matter.

One would like to think that, but...


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10991 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
This is true, and right now it's the US apparently

No, but the EU is getting less eager to pay above market prices for Russian LNG and oil so the Soviets are starting to feel they may not want to antagonise Berlin and Paris too much or loose a lucrative export market for the only thing anyone outside their empire still wants.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17446 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10438 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 13):
the EU is getting less eager to pay above market prices for Russian LNG and oil

Yeah but I don't think they're doing anything about it are they?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1612 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10261 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
I don't blame them. I'd rather buy an aircraft that I can have in a couple years rather than a concept that I may or may not have in five years. The Russian government, however, has different plans .

You bet they do, and it's more than "Flying Airbus" IMO.  redflag 



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 875 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9553 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 13):
Soviets

I sort of resent that you are calling us Soviets, as you are alluding to a past era which doesn't exist anymore. SU may want 787's but Russia is playing a game, which may ultimately hurt SU, but is done for a larger purpose. With Europe's proximity to Europe, it makes sense for Russia to be on friendlier terms than with the US.



LH 442
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9524 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 13):
so the Soviets

You might want to move into the 21st century, where the rest of us have been living for a couple of years now... it hasn't been "the Soviets" for quite a while now...  Yeah sure

As for the article... it's so badly written, it isn't even worth starting wild rumors about...



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5085 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9333 times:

If they wanted the 787 why didn't they order it?


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlineDallasnewark From Estonia, joined Nov 2005, 495 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9333 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 13):
No, but the EU is getting less eager to pay above market prices for Russian LNG and oil so the Soviets are starting to feel they may not want to antagonise Berlin and Paris too much or loose a lucrative export market for the only thing anyone outside their empire still wants.

Oil and Natural Gas is not the only export raw materials they possess. You forgot nickel, iron, uranium, gold, diamonds, etc. I can go on, but I think you got the point.

Anyways, EU needs them a lot more that SU needs Airbuses from EU. With the change of regimes in France and Germany and somewhat closer ties to US that came with that change, the Russians probably feel that the're no need to appease EU, hence the Airbus order can be changed again. They play a lot of dirty politics and neither Boeing nor Airbus would know which way the've gone until they see the money from SU



B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
User currently offlineDallasnewark From Estonia, joined Nov 2005, 495 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 9307 times:

Quoting JAL (Reply 18):
If they wanted the 787 why didn't they order it?

I know this post will get deleted quickly, but the reason they are still unsure as to what they want to order is because Putin flip flops more often than an avid employee of the Red Light District in Amsterdam



B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
User currently offlineDeltaAVL From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1893 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 8900 times:

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 2):

Not even the Big US carriers can get deliveries in a "COUPLE " of years , for aeroflot , they should be looking at something like 2012-2014 deliveries , which isnt far off from the A350 EIS ( ie. if they got some very early slots for the -900)

I think that if a few big airlines placed a few big 787 orders, Boeing would almost certainly increase production. Boeing's never going to flat out say "no" to a customer either. If Aeroflot wants 787s sometime before 2014 and offer a big order, I bet Boeing would increase production.

But as always, this is just my two cents.  Wink



"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30910 posts, RR: 87
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 8814 times:
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Quoting JAL (Reply 18):
If they wanted the 787 why didn't they order it?

SU does not make the final decision, the Russian government does. And the Russian government was able to get more concessions from the EU then the US, so Airbus was given the order (at least in part) as a form of quid pro quo. Of course, this is how business is often transacted around the world, so the only reason folks get bent out of shape about it is because their "favorite" either wasn't chosen (so it smacks of "dirty pool") or it was chosen (so they're defensive because it wasn't chosen solely on suitability or desirability).


User currently offlineCJAContinental From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8371 times:

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 20):
because Putin flip flops

I agree that Aeroflot doesn't have as much say as they probably should, and I agree the government has to much say, though I'm not so sure its PUTIN's input over the cause of Aeroflots indecisive attitude. Putin seemed to further accelerate russia from the dark ages, and now its economy its growing (he is probably one of the most sympathetic russians towards America in recent times). As a result, more corrupt billionaires from the KGB, and informal unseen business (russian mafia: as ridiculous as it sounds its true to some extent) have more influence over the government, the bad side of capitalist russia that was not experienced as much before. Don't forget Boeing moscow ironically had a lot to do with the LCF.

A lot of the billionaires are in control of the oil, and this could have something to do with the A350 interest, appeasing the EU, as has been addressed, though I can't coment on that, I don't know enough about it.

To those who are saying that the 787 won't be bought because its american, aeroflot currently has the 737, 767, and 777 in its fleet and is currently looking to acquire MD-11's for its cargo; the fact that Aeroflot was interested in the 787 prior to now, and the fact that Aeroflot and the 787 are mentioned together, means that interest had to be shown by someone, at some point.

I think it is unlikely that aeroflot never wanted the 787, though I do think a decision against it would be due to a random decision, or pressure from the higher ups, not necesaraly Putin's influence.

To those that are confused by my post and may think that I was under the influence of something I shouldn't have been while writing this, I wasn't. The point I am trying to get accross is that yes, the government has too much say over aeroflot, however, I do not think that PUTIN has much influence over these matters, as is the same with other affairs concerning the russian government, and major economic decisions.



Work Hard/Fly Right.
User currently offlineAminobwana From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8118 times:

.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
don't blame them. I'd rather buy an aircraft that I can have in a couple years rather than a concept that I may or may not have in five years. The Russian government, however, has different plans

Other than the figures, I agree. It is about 5 years (if Aeroflot pressures) for B787 and 8-9 years for A350 (considering the barrel construction change, about 2 years after EIS for a customer not in place for the earliest slots)

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 6):
With so much politics involved they have to make up their mind about who they hate more - EU or the US.

Some month ago, it was the US. At this moment, between other between they are being rejected by EADS, mainly by the Germans, there is a draw

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 13):
No, but the EU is getting less eager to pay above market prices for Russian LNG and oil so the Soviets are starting to feel they may not want to antagonise Berlin and Paris too much or loose a lucrative export market for the only thing anyone outside their empire still wants.

Nobody ask the EU if they are eager or not, the same as SAUDI Arabia, IRAN or Libya. Where would the EU buy the Gas instead ?? Russia does not care who buys their oil, if not the EU any other will.

Quoting JAL (Reply 18):
If they wanted the 787 why didn't they order it?

They factually did (LOI with seriosity money)

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 21):
think that if a few big airlines placed a few big 787 orders, Boeing would almost certainly increase production. Boeing's never going to flat out say "no" to a customer either. If Aeroflot wants 787s sometime before 2014 and offer a big order, I bet Boeing would increase production.

There is no doubt about that, even if Boeing will be cautious not to overshoot as they did in the 90s. What Boeing for tactical reasons may say openly, is irrelevant.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
SU does not make the final decision, the Russian government does. And the Russian government was able to get more concessions from the EU then the US, so Airbus was given the order (at least in part) as a form of quid pro quo.

Assuming that world politics depends from an order of 20 or 22 aircrafts (which is clearly not so), do not forget that at least at certain non-economic domains Russia is still a world power, and the US are more so then the EU.
But as said, I do not think that the picture is so big. Putin offered to switch the B787 for the A350 to get a place
in EADS, needed for regeneration of his military and civil industry (to later compete), and also, because he wanted to show the US that he is angry. Now he is angry at the EU also, if he sticks with the A350 Aeroflot will have to compete several years with SIBIR and other flying B787. using much more expensive to operate aircrafts. maintenance and repair would be better served if Aeroflot, SIBIR, AZER and other fly the same aircraft, etc. An as nobody can say Putin is not a clever guy, he will not bluff himself into a corner.
The EU will receive a nice candy, i.e. the A320, unless he gets really angry !!
Finally, again, Airbus can offer "attractive" price and conditions, but at this point, given the risk to depend on a A350 compliance in time and specs, possibly this would not help much, but who knows !!
aminobwana


25 CJAContinental : I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, though why is he angry?
26 Danny : Putin is 100% Soviet imo.
27 EI321 : Its blatently obvious that 'Vlad prefered old Russia. But Old russia will never return and Moscow is stuck between a sort of socialism and bent capat
28 MCOflyer : How come S7 gets to order the 787 when SU can't? Hunter
29 Turpentyine : I think because SU is partially owned by the government and S7 is more or less private.
30 Post contains images Confuscius : so the Soviets The correct term is bolsheviks. If they wanted the 787 why didn't they order it? I believe a private firm placed a refundable deposit o
31 JFK787NYC : All airlines in Russia are owned in some way by the government. The only airline that has no government stake in Russia is TransAero. Aeroflot is the
32 Bringiton : Boeing has come out and publically said ( like 2 days ago) that they cannot increase production before 2011 at the earliest . There is a shortage of
34 IL62M : First of all SU does not have 777 in their fleet for at least 2 years for now as i recall. SU has never stated they dont want 787. As i recall (once
35 Glideslope : Capatilism Hybrid? If anything I'd say Al Capone USA circa the 1930's. IMO.
36 Stitch : That S7 has now bought the 787, perhaps it is the "consolation prize" to Boeing by the Russian government for shifting the SU order over to the A350?
37 IL62M : Glideslope, dont you ever stop this? No that is 99.999999999.....% NOT.
38 Post contains images ZBA320 : I don't think it should. I find it entertaining reading
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