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AF SEA-CDG...Early Load Numbers?  
User currently offlineAlexInWa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1146 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5523 times:

Just wondering if anyone has any early numbers on how this flight is booked/selling?

It remains the most exspensive flight out of SEA, but things are starting to get exciting around here, as the flight gets closer and closer!!


You mad Bro???
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7402 posts, RR: 57
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 5203 times:

So far, on May 31st, the booking/load factor for the flights on the first 10 days are :

- June 11 : 85 %
- June 12 : 76,25 %
- June 13 : 69,86 %
- June 14 : 73,51 %
- June 15 : 85,38 %
- June 16 : 86,75 %
- June 17 : 81,27 %
- June 18 : 85,38 %
- June 19 : 88,58 %
- June 20 : 91,32 %


User currently offlineAlexInWa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 5159 times:

Thank you very much.........

I expected it to do well, however, it is rather expensive to fly to CDG. Connecting however it is about the same as all other airlines, which I find odd. We fly to STR

Looking at those numbers I am guessing that it is a success? At least the first 10 days worth?



You mad Bro???
User currently offline28L28L From Australia, joined Nov 2005, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 5123 times:

Does anyone know the date that AF first begen service to SFO?

User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4498 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 5060 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 1):
Looking at those numbers I am guessing that it is a success? At least the first 10 days worth?

After June 20, the bookings get even stronger, with some weekend services already as good as sold out, so I think that would indeed be called a success. The real question is, though, how the service will perform in the off season, when Air France is reducing frequency from daily to 5 weekly.


User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1830 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months ago) and read 4961 times:

This is really great to see this new route already performing well in term of loads. I will go to SEA next march so I will be very happy to take this new flight.

User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2176 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4795 times:

I have no doubt this service will do well on the long term. Any plans of partnership with NW from there?


When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlinePizzaandplanes From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4737 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 6):
I have no doubt this service will do well on the long term.

Well you might be proved wrong. SAS has operated CPH-SEA for around 30 years! Another thing is that SAS doesn't fly to LAX. Just show you how great that route does for them. SEA is more like a niche market in terms of transatlantic service.


User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1830 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4716 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 6):
Any plans of partnership with NW from there?

The flight is currently code-shared with DL


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4681 times:

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 8):
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 6):
Any plans of partnership with NW from there?

The flight is currently code-shared with DL

It would be much smarter for AF to get this flight to be in partnership with NW as well, given that NW has a much stronger presence in SEA, and I believe is the 2nd largest airline at SEA after Alaska, who they also closely partner with. NW could provide AF with the connectivity to make SEA into another gateway, to help keep up loads during the off season, if nothing else.

Quoting Pizzaandplanes (Reply 7):
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 6):
I have no doubt this service will do well on the long term.

Well you might be proved wrong. SAS has operated CPH-SEA for around 30 years! Another thing is that SAS doesn't fly to LAX. Just show you how great that route does for them. SEA is more like a niche market in terms of transatlantic service.

Seattle has a pretty decent Scandinavian population, which cannot hurt. Living in Minnesota, I can tell you that a lot of people of Scandinavian heritage like traveling to Norway and Sweden, so I can only imagine SAS does well with service to Seattle. Additionally, I believe they had a corner on direct SEA-europe service as well, making them a solid choice for europeans going to seattle.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24858 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4600 times:

Quoting Pizzaandplanes (Reply 7):
SAS has operated CPH-SEA for around 30 years

Make that 41 years. SK's CPH-SEA service began September 2, 1966. For many years SK was the only European carrier serving SEA. The only other SEA-Europe nonstop service then was Pan Am SEA-LHR.


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4543 times:

Quoting 28L28L (Reply 3):
Does anyone know the date that AF first begen service to SFO?

Air France inherited San Francisco from UTA. The route was flown with UTA CDG-SFO-PPT, and CDG-SFO with a SFO termination. The service began with a DC-10-30, however it was not uncommon to see a 747-300 as a sub from time to time. At the time Air France took over UTA the service was flown as a DC-10-30 in Air France colors. From that point the route was flown with a 767-300, an occasional 747-200, then A340-300, then 777-200, and now a grab bag of seasonal equipment. As of I believe last year even the A330-200 was used on the route during the slow season. However at current for the summer season it is a 747-400 as it has been for the past several summers.


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Photo © Matthew Hom--Frame of Mind, Inc.

CURRENT SUMMER 2007


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Photo © Andrew Hunt - AirTeamImages

CURRENT SEASONAL


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Photo © Ben Wang

CURRENT WINTER


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SUBSTITUTE


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PREVIOUS


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PREVIOUS


-JD


User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4509 times:

Not such a big deal to have great load factors to Europe the second and third week of June, right at the start of Summer vacation. AF could probably get those numbers out of any west coast city wheather it be SMF, FAT, PDX, SAN or SJC. If the load factors look that good 1st week of December and Second week of January, than I will be impressed.

User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4457 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 11):
Air France inherited San Francisco from UTA.

At one time both UTA and Air France operated the route, prior to AF acquiring UTA. I can remember both airlines had separate check-in counters, I putting this timetable around the mid-80's. After UTA folded another French carrier operated a DC8 between SFO and CDG. This had to be around 1990 as my flight was stuck waiting for the jet to leave the gate.


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4384 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 13):
After UTA folded another French carrier operated a DC8 between SFO and CDG

Minerve, who also operated from Oakland - This was with the DC-8 and I believe their was an en route stop at Bangor.


In addition Corsair also flew CDG/ORY-OAK-PPT and CDG-SFO-PPT for a number of years as well with the 747SP and 747-300.


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SAN FRANCISCO


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OAKLAND

Tower Air flew summer charters from OAK-CDG with the 747 in the later part of the 1990's as well.


-JD

[Edited 2007-06-01 03:17:14]

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9498 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4074 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 9):
It would be much smarter for AF to get this flight to be in partnership with NW as well, given that NW has a much stronger presence in SEA, and I believe is the 2nd largest airline at SEA after Alaska, who they also closely partner with. NW could provide AF with the connectivity to make SEA into another gateway, to help keep up loads during the off season, if nothing else.

While NW has a strong presence in Seattle, it won't benefit Air France. Northwest has no connectivity wiht the exception of Hawaii from SEA. They serve Hawaii, NRT, AMS, MSP, MEM and DTW only. AS has feed. NW does not in SEA. They operate big planes to their hubs, but only UA has connectivity from SEA in addition to AS.

DL serves LAX, ATL, CVG and SLC from SEA. So neither NW or DL are that useful sans connections to Hawaii that can be made through other airports.

[Edited 2007-06-01 15:46:18]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAlexInWa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4030 times:

Lets all remember, SK used to cut down it's daily service to 4x times weekly, before they built that up to keep it year-round daily.

BA wasn't always daily, now they are 10x a week year-round.

UA was 4x a week to daily.

I think only NW to AMS started daily and has always been daily.

I don't really buy into the winter is no good here in SEA. If you are offering 400 to 500.00 fares to Europe in the "winter" hours, all these flights will be full. I'll be on one of them.

Even out Asia service has started slow and has built up to a consistenet level even in the winter



You mad Bro???
User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3901 times:

Quoting AlexInWa (Reply 16):
I don't really buy into the winter is no good here in SEA. If you are offering 400 to 500.00 fares to Europe in the "winter" hours, all these flights will be full. I'll be on one of them.

It's not so much that the weather in Seattle is bad in winter as it is the weather in Europe is bad, but I really doubt many Europeans will vacation in Seattle in the winter, so for Europeans a Seattle flight in winter would be all business travel. I'm not saying this route won't be a great success, what I am saying is that the LF in the first two weeks of June are meaningless. You might visit Paris in the middle of January, but a lot of people can't and a lot of people won't no matter what the price, and I am one of those people. Driving around in Europe in the snow and ice and Freezing my ass off walking around in the rain in Paris is not my idea of a a vacation, I'm more of a Hawaii kind of guy in winter. Also if the price gets too low, what is the point of having the flight?


User currently offlineAlexInWa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3820 times:

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 17):
It's not so much that the weather in Seattle is bad in winter as it is the weather in Europe is bad, but I really doubt many Europeans will vacation in Seattle in the winter, so for Europeans a Seattle flight in winter would be all business travel. I'm not saying this route won't be a great success, what I am saying is that the LF in the first two weeks of June are meaningless. You might visit Paris in the middle of January, but a lot of people can't and a lot of people won't no matter what the price, and I am one of those people. Driving around in Europe in the snow and ice and Freezing my ass off walking around in the rain in Paris is not my idea of a a vacation, I'm more of a Hawaii kind of guy in winter. Also if the price gets too low, what is the point of having the flight?

Guess I would agree for the most part,.....most of my travels are to STR. Weather alot like SEA. So going in Oct and Nov isn't bad at all for half the price of a summer fare.

I truly hope this AF flight does well and sticks around. I also hope it will drive down the fares. I don't see any "new" europe n/s service from SEA in the near future as this pretty much "tops" us off in the Europe market. With CPH, AMS, LHR, and now CDG we have options.

It is good to see the BA has stuck with 10x weekly, even with a switch to all 777's during the winter. Maybe if the AF flight does well we can see an a/c upgrade next summer.

Makes me wonder if the SEA/Europe market is mainly Y class? Wonder what the breakdown is? I know the summer is full of Y class coming here (SEA and surrounding areas) and to the cruise markets as well.



You mad Bro???
User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2027 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3779 times:

Air France is going to do VERY well here in Seattle.

Some interesting points:
1) There are three options to Europe over the pole currently: NW/BA x2/SK. NW has a pretty good product now that the A332s are on the route; when the operated the DC-10, it was not as well received. Still, while AF and NW will have similar products, the fact that they are in SkyTeam together gives them the ability to leverage the local strength of AS in this market.
2) SAS will lose a little bit in the summer, but that's OK, since their overbooking habits in the summer tend to leave a few people behind (at least this traditionally has been the case). SASs service to northern Europe and Scandinavia can stand pretty much on its own; I don't see AF/NW digging into SASs back yard. In addition, SAS has a three cabin product on board and there is some opportunity for them to maintain market share to Central Europe by offering a middle cabin product for a small premium (and it has become a LOT smaller) over Y class. That and the fact they have started doing Y+$X for buy up to Economy Extra and Y+$XX for buy up to Business Class right now still gives them a little bit of an edge....that and the fact they have been here forever.
3) BA has the most to lose. Right now, their Economy product, while not bad, is horrible in terms of comfort. Yes, they have the buy up to Economy (World Traveler Plus), but they are in the weakest market position here; American is their only partner locally and their operation is smaller than UA. UA still has a stronger presence here because of the SEA-NRT service. Even with the eventual downgrade of the aircraft from a 777 to a 767 (which is in the works for late 2007 or early 2008), UA will have the international service to Asia; hence they maintain a slightly better presence than OneWorld.
4) SkyTeam really does rule here now. Even though AS is not part of SkyTeam, they might as well be, since they are partnered up with NW/DL and I have to think that AF will be working with them to get the feed they need for their service as well...I know AF well enough that they are very smart about opening markets...they would not have opened SEA without some kind of agreement with AS/NW/DL in place so that the cross feed would be in place. The fact that NW and AF leave at different (but similar times) means that AF will benefit if NW oversells; since NW will FIM their AMS passengers onto AF on the days that NW is oversold and AF will rebook passengers onto NW and FIM them as necessary to solve their occasional strike issues (the French do strike from time to time and it does have an affect on the operation), but having NW there is like having a step-brother to help you do the heavy lifting.

I think you will see NWs AMS service feeding KLM to markets in Northern Europe and beyond; AF's CDG service will feed AF's services beyond CDG to Southern Europe. While they will compete against each other for some of this traffic, the services are rather complimentary than competitive, simply because of the strength of SkyTeam in Seattle (let us not forget NW flies to Asia and KE has a presence here as well). Alaska owns this market and the leverage they hold here and in Portland is considerable...and the agreements that they have with the SkyTeam carriers is much more far reaching than the marketing agreement they have with AA and OneWorld.

Lately AF's onboard service has been improving and I think that people in both cabins will enjoy the particular brand of service they provide. NW will have to step it up a notch, but that's OK...they have the cost structure to do some product improvements (although with their A332s, they don't need to do much).

Competition is a healthy thing and having more than three carriers in Seattle flying polar to Europe is the kind of thing we've needed here for a long time. Welcome Air France and good luck!

BA will have to watch their back...SAS will be protecting its home turf. It should be interesting to watch.

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1830 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 19):
Even though AS is not part of SkyTeam, they might as well be, since they are partnered up with NW/DL and I have to think that AF will be working with them to get the feed they need for their service as well...

Since a few months, Flying Blue members can earn miles on AS flights. That's already a good beginning  Smile


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3726 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 11):
Quoting 28L28L (Reply 3):Does anyone know the date that AF first begen service to SFO?

Air France inherited San Francisco from UTA.

It actually goes back much further than that. In the 1960s, AF was flying SFO-YUL-ORY with 707s.

http://www.airchive.com/Timetables%2.../Europe%20Contribution/AFR67-2.jpg



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAlexInWa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3682 times:

Sorry off topic, but did I see that UA will downgrade SEA-NRT to a 763? Isn't SEA-NRT one of the most profitable routes for UA to Asia?

Very odd as Europe is doing very well, Asia has always been stronger. Is UA feeling the pinch from CI,BR,KE,OZ, and NW? Can't imagine they are losing that much ground with the feed they have here. Or is it more of a a/c issue?

I always had hoped that UA would bring SEA-LHR back with the 763, but with SK here guess not.

If UA goes 763 SEA-NRT I would be stunned to not see NW put more capacity on SEA-NRT, or would this open the door for a new carrier (SQ)?



You mad Bro???
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24858 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3638 times:

Interesting videos of AF history from their website. Click the timeline along the bottom for the various dates and then click "See the entire film" link to put it in a video window. Other links across the top.
http://www.airfrancelasaga.com/lasaga/en/index_streaming.htm

For the French soundtrack version replace "en" with "fr" in the URL above.


User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 21):
It actually goes back much further than that. In the 1960s, AF was flying SFO-YUL-ORY with 707s

You are absolutely correct AeroWesty!! Watching the first 3 minutes of Alfred Hitchcocks "The Birds" will also prove it!! In the opening sequence of that film a shot that pans Union Square in 1962 or 1963 three huge billboards advertise nonstop service to Europe, one of the them is Air France, the other two are by BOAC and TWA.

Lufthansa also served SFO via YUL in the early 60's. Their city ticket office was at the corner of Powell and Geary streets.


25 FLYGUY767 : Didnt TWA operate SFO-CDG with the 707? Or was that Los Angeles? I remember in 1991? 1992? TWA restarted Los Angeles to Paris. CDG with the 767-300,
26 BAW716 : OK, off topic, kind of, since my post spoke to the alliance situation with the introduction of AF service and the effect on the SEA market. UA is goi
27 Airlittoralguy : Did air france operate a second daily CDG-SFO flight a few years ago ?? If so, what was it's schedule ?? Also does someone know what was the schedule
28 Goldorak : yes, shortly in 2001 but I don't know the schedule
29 EVA777SEA : They would probably pull it off to use it elsewhere. SEA hasn't been very high on UA's priority list the past couple of years.
30 FLYGUY767 : It was to re-appear in 2004? again. The second service was going to be flown at about 8pm from San Francisco. However now with KLM operating a full p
31 Post contains links SJCRRPAX : While not directly answering your question, I did find this article which more or less says that Seattle is being bypassed on some of the routes by n
32 Floridaflyboy : Ummh, don't forget JFK. Although that doesn't offer any connecting opportunities for these AF passengers, DL has for a while, served JFK from SEA.
33 FlySSC : Air France is going to iniate a partnership with Alaska Airlines to/from SEA in connection of its flight.
34 Gunsontheroof : I couldn't get a ticket to fly out on any of the flights in early July, so I'd imagine seats are selling quite well.
35 Addi375 : AF is having high hopes and projections are good on the SEA line. The flight is high loaded (a lot of H class, with very little L, T, and V on some da
36 BAW716 : AF launched their service yesterday from here (Seattle) with a lot of fanfare and media attention...and a pretty full flight to boot. Reminds me of th
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