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AA's New MSP-LGA--NWA Response?  
User currently offlineSeatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 778 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5836 times:

Any guesses as to how Northwest will respond to AA's announcement that they'll begin MSP-LGA MD80 flights?

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5811 times:

Nothing big, legacy carriers (in recent years) don't lash out at each other, they save that for the low cost carriers. Northwest probably knows that there is enough room for two.

Now if AirTran launched LGA-MSP, NW would triple the number of flights, offer a billion world perks miles for every sector flown and add extra flights on all the routes they compete.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5756 times:

NW is not a pushover... but I suspect AA got a corporate contract to support the route and if anything NW will just match the fares in AA's corporate contract.

User currently offlineCIDflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2352 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5732 times:

AA is pretty big at LGA, I imagine the flights will cater to the numerous AAdvantage members in NYC more so than anything. Minnesotans will probably still choose NW flights and their Worldperks miles when flying to NY.

User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5725 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 2):
NW is not a pushover...

Certainly not, but if you look at the track record of legacy carriers jumping into each other's home markets, there are few cases that have seen retribution (none that I can remember off hand). Compare that to Low Cost/Low Fare intrusions.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8709 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5703 times:

We can expect larger aircraft -- not 757s, but A320s in place of DC-9s and that sort of thing. As others have said, there is plenty of room for 2 players. One would expect DL to launch JFK-MSP or potentially, US to launch MSP-LGA or MSP-DCA. Those have been NW monopolies for many years.

User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 901 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5638 times:

What will NW's response be? Simple, it'll be to watch AA fill their MD80s with AAdvantage members and MSP passengers tired of paying ridiculously high walk up fares to go to NYC.

 Big grin  duck 


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5593 times:

NW probably cant respond at either ORD or LGA due to slots, so AA appears to have checkmated them there...I suppose they could fly DFW-LAX and connect with NRT, HNL

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8709 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5589 times:

The fact that AA is putting 3x M80 right in there to launch the market proves that it is a big and lucrative market. When was the last time something like this happened, a mainline "invasion" between legacies?

User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5549 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
The fact that AA is putting 3x M80 right in there to launch the market proves that it is a big and lucrative market. When was the last time something like this happened, a mainline "invasion" between legacies?

When AA began ATL-LGA...clearly AA sales is after some big NYC accounts


User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5529 times:

Would AA also have to compete with SY because SY has MSP-JFK.


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5514 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
The fact that AA is putting 3x M80 right in there to launch the market proves that it is a big and lucrative market. When was the last time something like this happened, a mainline "invasion" between legacies?

AA's hopes have got to be completely riding on the demand from NYC, AA has a fairly soft following in MSP, they are slowly building their presence, now offering non-stops MSP to ORD, DFW, MIA, and now LGA. I'm glad to see a third airline step into non-stop MSP-NYC (and really, CO doesn't count because they are in cahoots with NW on the route). I think they might have a bit of a time launching the route, but if their fares are right, maybe not. NW does have a good deal of connecting traffic through MSP to NYC from a number of upper midwestern/western cities without direct service - but if AA has the demand on the NYC side, they could make it work.

I'll be glad to see more MD80s (or S80s, if you will) coming into MSP.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5485 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 2):
NW is not a pushover... but I suspect AA got a corporate contract to support the route and if anything NW will just match the fares in AA's corporate contract.

AFAIK, they don't have a corporate contract. They entered LGA-ATL, LGA-CLT, and LGA-PIT, and all three have done very well. This is just a natural extension of that.

They are relying on their large NYC-based flyer base.



a.
User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5397 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 7):
I suppose they could fly DFW-LAX and connect with NRT, HNL

I would expect exactly this route to be used as leverage. If not, this example and the F9 MEM/MCO, MEM/LAS routes are telling us this isn't the NWA Pricing Dept. of old.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineN710PS From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5378 times:

US would never launch it. I can tell you that as a cold hard fact and watch my credit rise here. The reason why this is so is because LGA is afocus city for US and the primary market is business. Right now most markets US serve are monopolized from LGA or just about so at least. They like that. No reason to go to MSP.


There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7711 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5346 times:

Legacies generally don't get into fare wars with one another these days.

As said, AA will fill their flights with their loyal NYC following, and NW will continue to fill their flights with their loyal MN & Upper Midwest following.

Don't look for any rediculous fare wars on this route as both NW & AA are smart enough to know that they need to generate sufficient revenue in this day and age. Their prices will still be very similar, and last minute fares will still be at a premium.

The most NW would do is upgage some frequencies to A320 & 757's....nothing more, nothing less.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8709 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5340 times:

Quoting N710PS (Reply 14):
The reason why this is so is because LGA is afocus city for US and the primary market is business. Right now most markets US serve are monopolized from LGA or just about so at least. They like that. No reason to go to MSP.

Well MSP-LGA is a business market. But you have a point, US is very shy about upsetting (other) legacy carriers. US is big enough to tangle with NW, but then, US is no AA. To tangle with AA is, mostly, not worth it, according to history. The same goes for NW however. Nobody competes with NW on MSP-DCA, which is one of the larger monopoly items in the country, now. It seems US could jump on that if they felt really frisky.

I still think DL could start MSP-JFK to connect to Europe, although NW provides it via codeshare, one would hope.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7711 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5323 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
I still think DL could start MSP-JFK to connect to Europe, although NW provides it via codeshare, one would hope.

Not necessary when one can easily fly MSP-AMS-xxx and get anywhere that DL flies in Europe via NW/KLM.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5289 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
The fact that AA is putting 3x M80 right in there to launch the market proves that it is a big and lucrative market. When was the last time something like this happened, a mainline "invasion" between legacies?

What else could AA have flown there? The 135 would take restrictions and the CR7 doesn't do LGA runs.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5272 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
When was the last time something like this happened, a mainline "invasion" between legacies?

In June 2005 when AA started LaGuardia-Atlanta with S80s and then again in February 2006 when Delta started LaGuardia-Miami with MD88s.



a.
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4304 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5217 times:

Quoting N710PS (Reply 14):
US would never launch it. I can tell you that as a cold hard fact and watch my credit rise here. The reason why this is so is because LGA is afocus city for US and the primary market is business. Right now most markets US serve are monopolized from LGA or just about so at least. They like that. No reason to go to MSP.

Thats partially true, but I will give you more reasons that I think are even bigger. One, as far as mainline goes LGA has become a Shuttle, Florida, and Hub city, with most of the the Non hub flying, and even some Hub flying (PHL) on the express carriers. In order to fit this model, any MSP-LGA service would have to be on Express. Well, the 170's are mostly in the PHL market, PSA and Mesa have all the CRJ-700 and 900's out of CLT, which leaves mostly 50 seat RJ's, operated by Air Wisconsin and Chautatqua in LGA. And I can tell you, a CRJ-200 from LGA to MSP would not work. It would be constantly weight restricted, business travellers wouldnt pay to fly on it when they can fly a mainline plane on a couple of other carriers, and given the fact that Air Wisconsin has no MX or Crew base in LGA, if something happens to one of the airplanes in another station, the plane and crew are probably ferrying to either PHL or ORF, and the flight is cancelled.

Unless they can get some 170's into the LGA market to operate the flight, which I don't see, LGA MSP isn't happening on US.

DCA-MSP has a much better chance of happening, but why would US operate the route when their Star Alliance Partner United already serves the market on the IAD-MSP route?


User currently offlineUSFlyer MSP From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

Quoting Apodino (Reply 20):
DCA-MSP has a much better chance of happening, but why would US operate the route when their Star Alliance Partner United already serves the market on the IAD-MSP route?

UA is canceling IAD-MSP effective June 8th. DCA-MSP is a definite possibility for US, although US would have to get its gate situation at MSP sorted out somehow.


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

Quoting Apodino (Reply 20):
DCA-MSP has a much better chance of happening, but why would US operate the route when their Star Alliance Partner United already serves the market on the IAD-MSP route?

But if you followed that logic US would have far less DCA routes than it currently does. Look at all the overlap between CO and DL out of NYC - Alliance partners do compete with each other



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4864 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
JFK-MSP or potentially

SY does this year round.



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4831 times:

Quoting MSP" class=quote target=_blank>USFlyer MSP (Reply 21):

UA is canceling IAD-MSP effective June 8th. DCA-MSP is a definite possibility for US, although US would have to get its gate situation at MSP sorted out somehow.

Northwest makes it really hard to compete out of MSP. It's sad, because I was hoping that UA E-Jet flight to IAD would be a success, and that they might follow it up with an A-319 to SFO. Alas, I'm stuck up here with NW, their grumpy F/A's, and museum vintage jets.

It's really rare that something like this - AA adding 3 frequencies happens, because wherever there is a market, NW generally fills it as needed. I hope AA the best of luck. I am all for airlines that are not NW or some of their SkyTeam kronies, expanding at MSP.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
25 SNCntry32 : Competition in MSP makes me grin cheek to cheek.
26 FlyDreamliner : The combined AA/UA out-muscle NW to ORD, which I love. I just wish we'd get more non-stop service outside of NW, both so I can fly non-NW airlines wi
27 FreequentFlier : I think its only a matter of time before we see more LCCs into MSP.
28 SNCntry32 : If I was a betting man, which I am, I am willing to bet that WN does not come here, AirTrain steps up thier ops, and F9 just stays the same. Like I h
29 Burnsie28 : I love how most people in MSP whine about $275 RT airfare to just about anywhere. I have easily found almost every domestic city for that or less RT.
30 SNCntry32 : I have seen body whine about the ticket price, just lack of competition in MSP...
31 FlyDreamliner : The fact that we don't have LCC's does crank up our prices on some markets. When FL opened up MSP-MCO, they offered it for somewhere right around $20
32 Flyswim : $275 RT??? On a red-eye, maybe to compete with Sun Country. I fly SFO-MSP quite a lot of business, last trip I did see some of those low RTs, but they
33 Dolphinflyer : I think NW will launch nonstop DFW-AMS service with A330 a/c in Spring 2008. Unrelated route, but would definitely be a retaliatory response to AA's e
34 Flighty : That's about the level of retaliation I would expect, too. NW won't let LGA-MSP invasions go down without some kind of fight.
35 ElmoTheHobo : That's a whole lot of retatilation, though very interesting. The 767-300 being released from DFW-ZRH is going to ORD-EZE.
36 PSU.DTW.SCE : Uhh no. NW/KLM isn't going to launch DFW-AMS anytime soon. You'd see them do DEN, PHX, PDX or retry MIA or PHL again probably before DFW. DFW doesn't
37 SESGDL : I definitely appreciate NW's service here. Fares are reasonable, you just have to know when and where to look. However, what I don't like is the lack
38 PSU.DTW.SCE : So you'd get what? WN MDW - already served by NW, FL, not to mention AA, NW, UA to ORD DEN - already served by NW, UA, F9 STL - already served by NW,
39 Cdgdtw : The NW response to AA is to operate MSP/LGA/MSP exclusively with 757 aircraft as of the end of August.
40 Dolphinflyer : Capacity increase on the existing route. Yawn... Boring response.
41 Flighty : Come on, the lack of B6 and WN in MSP clearly shows they fear NW and its retaliatory practices. There is hardly any lower hanging fruit for B6/WN tha
42 Tornado82 : Or the fact that the MSP market is MORE than adequately served for a town of that size. Think PIT pre-US dehubbing, and CVG.
43 AirlineEcon : I could see AA putting on some more pressure at MSP. BOS seems pretty underserved/overpriced with non-stops by NW. From what I understand AA has a dec
44 Flighty : Agreed, it is ripe for competition from B6 or AA. Whether or not SY flies the route.
45 PSU.DTW.SCE : AA will not add BOS-MSP. They have not built up BOS they way they have at LGA, with flights outside of the Northeast other than a few Trans-cons to th
46 SESGDL : PIT and CVG never had the O&D that MSP has. MSP is a larger O&D market than DTW, with around 16 million O&D passengers a year, roughly 45% of the air
47 USFlyer MSP : SY flies MSP-IAD daily (soon to be 2x daily) on solely O&D.
48 Flighty : You are right that MSP serves the 6 million people in MN / ND / SD plus another million or two in Wisconsin and most of Iowa, for a total "exclusive"
49 Post contains links Timf : The response is in: Northwest Airlines Announces New Nonstop Service between Dallas and New York Three daily weekday, two daily weekend flights to sta
50 Commavia : Honestly, you almost have to laugh. This is just such a complete and total joke it is not even funny. At least AA is very strong on the New York end
51 Bobnwa : How did you get this knowledge that the NWA scheduling people do not have. What is it that DL figured out, as they still have 9 non-stops in the mark
52 Mikey711MN : Come on, Bob! You and I both know that DL has a huge presence in NYC and used to have a hub in DFW, hence both ends of that route are stacked with lo
53 RDUDDJI : Nice, I knew NW would respond...they are probably the most territorial carrier out there.
54 Commavia : What, specifically, are you referring to? AA is very strong in New York: Northwest already knows that. AA has at least a somewhat meaningful presence
55 Burnsie28 : Exactly, cities like FAR for example, DL lives on NW worldperks people going out west. Whose to say that DL people won't fly NW non-stop now?
56 Flyinryan99 : I totally agree with you on this one. I think they could do more damage to AA's DTW-LGA by adding 2x daily CRJs from both TOL and FNT then doing this
57 Flighty : Where is DFW-AMS on A330???
58 McMax : I have to agree. When I read the press release from Northwest a few minutes ago, I could barely suppress a laugh. It sounded exactly like NW's MO (re
59 Flighty : Yeah but Dallas-NYC is a huge, huge market. As long as you're $20 cheaper than AA, you have an excellent shot at people buying your tickets... no mat
60 Commavia : ...that AA handily dominates and controls. That isn't true. On a route as business-oriented as DFW-LGA, there are many other considerations that fact
61 AirlineEcon : Unbelievable!! DFW-LGA. I'm trying to figure this one out before I start calling people stupid. Maybe the logic goes something like this in a complica
62 McMax : I would agree the primary factor for the American consumer these days in choosing their flights is price. However, I would argue a secondary factor i
63 Hiflyer : May I suggest a couple of things. 1 DFW-LGA is an AMR goldmine as they own it and charge what they want basically 2 NW has deep pockets fresh out of c
64 HPAEAA : ok.. my .02 as someone who flew DFW NYC (ewr, LGA and JFK) for March- April this year... the route is desperately in need of capacity... most of my ti
65 Commavia : Not as deep as AA, which is now sitting on well over $5 billion in cash, more than any other airline in the United States. I doubt it. AA will match
66 MAH4546 : Though lets not forget AA, DL, and the like still think like this. Look at AA with RDU-SDF/JAX/MCI. Of those, only RDU-MCI is performing anything dec
67 Flighty : The wikipedia article on Predatory Pricing has this to say: "Since the early 1980s, economic models based on game theory and the theory of imperfect
68 Mariner : Well - maybe. NWA's nuclear attack on Frontier's LAX-MSP might have been successful in that instance, but it didn't keep Frontier out of MEM. mariner
69 Commavia : Of course. And I said precisely that on the other NW DFW-LGA thread. Some airlines still don't get the message that using your valuable and precious
70 Isitsafenow : I agree on not much of a presence in Dallas, but I have taken NW three RT's in and out of DFW, two DTW and one MSP and all six trips were FULL.Not mu
71 Commavia : The relevant question, though, is: where was the traffic on those DFW-DTW and -MSP flights coming from? I would be willing to wager that most of it w
72 Bobnwa : I am still amazed that you have so much knowledge that the airline managers appear not to have, according to you.
73 McMax : I don't think it has anything to do with special knowledge whatsoever. This is just common business sense. Anyone with an MBA or any experience with
74 Bobnwa : I assure the planners at NWA all have MBA's and have business experience. I also assure they looked hard at AA announcing LGA-MSP and what that would
75 FreequentFlier : Don't try to analyze to much. Its nothing more than the latest anti-competitive move by NW designed to send a message, ie "stay out of our hubs". Pro
76 MAH4546 : That is laughable. They did because AA started MSP-LGA. Sure, it wasn't announced within 24 hours (like when they announced DEN-MSP within a day of F
77 Bobnwa : Of course that is why they did it. No one is denying that. But what to do in response was thought out. What has whether I like it or not got anything
78 Post contains images Isitsafenow : You need to read Commavia's posts. A handful of us think he is in involved someway with AA management at DFW. What he says about AA and the DFW opera
79 Dutchjet : Simple question.......if DL was not successful in the LGA-DFW market, how could NW possibily think that it could make LGA-DFW work? DL is a far bigger
80 Alphascan : The objective of NWA's retaliatory strategy was never to make money from the DFW/LGA route. The objective is to trash the yields on the route so much
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