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LHR Third Runway - Already Built? ;)  
User currently offline6YJJK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7135 times:

All this talk of demolishing entire communities around Heathrow, and there's a perfectly good strip of tarmac lying unused, right between LHR and LGW. It's called Wisley, it's a stone's throw from the M25 motorway, and it even has a VOR (Ockham)  Smile

Hope this Google Map works

Is there enough length there for A320s, B737s and the like?

As the crow flies, I make it about 12 miles from Wisley to LHR, and 15 to LGW. The maglev in Shanghai covers 18 miles in about 7 minutes. Contrast that with the time to change terminals at LHR. Maglev is insanely expensive, but how would the economics of a more conventional rail link stack up, bearing in mind that this'd link LHR and LGW - and avoid demolishing large parts of their surroundings?

Apart from the NIMBYs (and the laughable idea of a fast train in the UK), what's wrong with this? Or is it just crazy enough to work?

How would you see the traffic being split up if this came to fruition?

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6910 times:

Yes the map works, but the satellite pic shows the runway is in dire need of repair  Wink

I'm sure someone could build a long enough taxiway from the main LHR complex  duck 



Lee



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6780 times:

There's also Northolt, Biggin Hill, Weybridge, Manston, Southend, Duxford and Cambridge.. not to mention Oxford etc etc...

The problem is transport links to the cities and motorways.
Add to this congestion in the air and the ability to handle airport growth in the future... not much point spending millions if you cant maximise on it.

I think it's inevitable another major airport will emerge in london (my money is on Southend).. it already has a train station, and less than 1 hour connection to london and close to the M25.
But reality is LHR will grow as will all the others.



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offline6Yjjk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6755 times:

Probably last used by VC10s, so I don't doubt it! That, and the small matter of no terminal. No buildings, in fact.

But with a fast enough link, is there any reason why the extra runway construction has to happen at an existing airport? This way, the capacity gets shared, Heathrow doesn't have to destroy entire communites, Gatwick doesn't have to bulldoze any (formerly) sleepy villages, and the whole lot is linked together, giving whole new ways to use the capacity - the idea of a "super-airport" has been kicked around before, I know. How would London use a 4-runway Heathwick? (okay, four-and-a-half if we're going to do Gatwick justice  Wink )

Do it this way, and BAA gets to build another shopping mall - hell, they could even put shops on the train.  Smile


User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6726 times:

Quoting 6Yjjk (Reply 3):
But with a fast enough link, is there any reason why the extra runway construction has to happen at an existing airport? This way, the capacity gets shared, Heathrow doesn't have to destroy entire communites, Gatwick doesn't have to bulldoze any (formerly) sleepy villages, and the whole lot is linked together, giving whole new ways to use the capacity - the idea of a "super-airport" has been kicked around before, I know. How would London use a 4-runway Heathwick? (okay, four-and-a-half if we're going to do Gatwick justice

People already complain about the 4 hour dash from LHR to LGW... more airports just makes it messier for those connections.. and ultimately less desirable to use that city to fly.

Personally.. if I live by an airport, I expect to be moved on someday.
If I live by a train station.. I expect to be woken by trains.
If I live in the country.. I expect it to be quiet.
If I live by the Hollywood sign.. I expect loads of tourists.

These people live by Heathrow... well i'm sure the airport was there first.



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offline6YJJK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6675 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 2):
There's also Northolt, Biggin Hill, Weybridge, Manston, Southend, Duxford and Cambridge.. not to mention Oxford etc etc...

Lots of possibilites, though as you say:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 2):
The problem is transport links to the cities and motorways.

Do we need to link the new major airport (be it Southend or wherever) to the city? Couldn't we achieve the same thing by linking the new airport to an old one? (If that link's airside, then so much the better.) The distances involved aren't massive, certainly compared to the distance you'd have to build/upgrade to get a decent ride into the city, and could be covered very quickly indeed if the technology were right.

I think that's the problem with so much of the UK, though - we can build nice shiny things at the ends of the railways, but never get around to kicking the railway itself up the backside and building the amazingly fast links we could. Look how long it's taken to get a decent link from London to the Channel Tunnel - we're making the same mistakes with the airports. The links we have aren't good enough now, and will probably have to last 20-30 years. We don't have any decent links between the airports themselves. Nobody in a position to do anything about it seems to have the vision to do something drastic.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 2):
Add to this congestion in the air

That's something that no amount of concrete can fix. Having said that, though - if (say) Heathwick were linked well enough to operate as a single entity, surely that opens up an opportunity to make the whole airspace (and runway, and terminal) usage around there more rational. For example, why go south out of London to get a flight from Gatwick to Edinburgh, which has to thread its way through the Heathrow mess? That could be done away with.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 2):
But reality is LHR will grow as will all the others.

Agreed! Bring it on  Smile Can't wait for the first upload of an A380 landing at Southend  Wink


User currently offline6YJJK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6652 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 4):
People already complain about the 4 hour dash from LHR to LGW... more airports just makes it messier for those connections.. and ultimately less desirable to use that city to fly.

Fair point. Why is that a four-hour dash? The technology exists to make it twenty minutes. It's this lack of decent infrastructure that's preventing us from making the best use of what we have already - though there's no doubt that airports will continue to expand.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 4):
These people live by Heathrow... well i'm sure the airport was there first.

I used to work at a flying school - the airfield opened in 1936. Didn't stop some 25-year-old in the village phoning to complain every time we did night training, though. Snarl.


User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6610 times:

Quoting 6YJJK (Reply 6):
Why is that a four-hour dash?

Reality... :
Get out of customs, collection luggage = 20 mins
Find bus station = 10 minutes
Queue for bus ticket = 20 minutes
Wait for bus = 20 minutes
bus is late = 15 minutes
driver needs to pee = 5 minutes.
load luggage on bus (throw out anything smashed in luggage) = 5 minutes
Bus driver reads out rules of traveling by bus = 5 minutes
some guy doesnt speak english = 5 minutes
another guy wants to goto Glasgow = 5 minutes
kid needs the loo = 5 minutes
someelse farts = 5 minutes.
Bus leaves LHR for M25 = 5 minutes
Roadworks on M25 = 20 minutes
traffic jam on M25 =20 minutes
chav causes accident = 20 minutes
police close motorway is not included.
bus driver misses exit = 10 minutes

...
...
arrive LGW.. flight has already left.



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineDL777LAX From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 521 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6568 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 4):
If I live by the Hollywood sign.. I expect loads of tourists.

Funny story with that, the local residents made it so that tourist were discouraged from visiting the sign. And it worked.

Anyway, I think that LHR, and LGW both need to be torn down, and have operations combined in a new airport capable of handling traffic for both, and be expandable for the traffic needs up to 2200. I don't get why the area around Gatwick, which seems to be rural-ish, would be so hard to get a good airport built.

oh yeah, thoes fu*king nimbys!!!



Blindly following anything is bad, unless of course your blind and your following a guide dog.
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6271 times:

If they ever did build a new London airport, they would be better off building it to the North of London, ideally somewhere near the M1/A1 and the East Coast Main line so that would allow better transport links to the majority of the country as well as London.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6232 times:

BAA should just buy up houses in Sipson as they go on the market and that will ease their NIMBY problems with a third runway at LHR. Better yet, appraise the houses in Sipson, offer every owner 15% above market value. Perhaps half will sell. Then half the local shops close and more sell. Then the rest of the shops close and yet more sell. Soon, there won't be much of a NIMBY problem.

User currently offlineLHRjc From Netherlands, joined Apr 2006, 1964 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6210 times:

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 1):
I'm sure someone could build a long enough taxiway from the main LHR complex

It'd probably only be about as long as the taxi from the gates at AMS to the Polderbaan  duck   Wink

JC



"Our 319's are very reliable. They get fixed very quickly."
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6131 times:

I don't see why anyone would want another tiny London airport. The vast majority of people want an on-time flights and better connectivity to the existing airports, LHR in particular. The BAA either needs to take a hardline approach to the third runway or alternatively more stealthy tactics as Zvendza mentioned.

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6087 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
or alternatively more stealthy tactics as Zvendza mentioned.

I'm not suggesting stealth. "Hello. We're from BAA. The appraisers say your house is worth GBP200K. We're willing to give you 230K. You can buy a nicer house somewhere without airport noise. Don't decide now. Here's my business card."


User currently offlineR2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6083 times:

What is this place? Seems abandoned, has no buildings or facilities. Was it a general aviation field, a former airbase?

Anyway, London does not need yet another small airport, 5 are enough already. It needs one big airport, with 4 runways, be it an expansion of an existing one or completely new. It's the only way to solve the problem.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6077 times:

Quoting R2rho (Reply 14):
It needs one big airport, with 4 runways, be it an expansion of an existing one or completely new. It's the only way to solve the problem.

A third runway at LHR would help tremendously.


User currently offlineLHRjc From Netherlands, joined Apr 2006, 1964 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6062 times:

Quoting R2rho (Reply 14):
What is this place? Seems abandoned, has no buildings or facilities. Was it a general aviation field, a former airbase?

It was used to support wartime bomber production at Brooklands in WWII, and then used by Vickers as a test field, including testing of the BAC111 and VC-10. It was shut down in 1972.

JC

[Edited 2007-06-02 15:37:24]


"Our 319's are very reliable. They get fixed very quickly."
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5935 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
A third runway at LHR would help tremendously.

I am sure its just a matter of time before it happens, the last thing we need in the South East is another Airport. Lets just concentrate on what we have, particularly at LHR.


User currently offlineRayPettit From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 608 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4753 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 2):
There's also Northolt, Biggin Hill, Weybridge

Weybridge?

Even in the sixties, the runway was only sufficient to take VC10's the short hop to Wisley, and there is an active railway on an embankment at one end.

However, it's mostly built on now - some of Brooklands' old racing track embankment remains but that would be some hairy landing! The last thing of substance to land there was the museum's Vanguard a few years back.

Ray


User currently offlineDavidkunzVIE From Austria, joined Mar 2007, 431 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4655 times:

Wouldn't it rather be a fourth runway?  Wink


DH3 DH4 CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 F70 732 733 734 73G 738 752 762 763 772 742 743 319 320 321 333 343
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26484 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4605 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 4):


These people live by Heathrow... well i'm sure the airport was there first.

Here is the issue I have about that. Complaining about noise when you move close to an airport is idiotic, however, complaining about being taken to expand one is valid. If a government decides to allow development around an airport by either not buying the land or not zoning it for airport specific use, the people who move into communities that develop around the airport are reasonably relying on the government to not move them when they realize the airport is not big enough.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineCYQL From Canada, joined Sep 2006, 86 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3976 times:

http://jct001.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/page5.html

Wisley would make a good airport for low cost airlines like Ryanair or Easyjet. Close to the M25 and A3, and rair within a couple of miles. A 6690 foot runway would be good for A320/737 flights.

Probably would never happen with all the NIMBY's in the area, plus there are some fancy homes close to where the hangers used to be.


User currently offlineEKSkycargo370 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3641 times:

I live near LHR and I don't care if they build another runway,its called development and helping the economy grow,and also pure safety.If people don't like it then move!
Anyway LHR has a 3rd runway (23-07) so technically speaking it would be a 4th runway!


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3520 times:

Quoting EKSkycargo370 (Reply 22):
LHR has a 3rd runway (23-07) so technically speaking it would be a 4th runway!

Not anymore. It's a taxiway now.


User currently offlineEKSkycargo370 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3503 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 23):
Not anymore. It's a taxiway now.

That must have been very recently,I remember a couple of years a 744 landing on it!


25 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Assume you mean 23-05. Even when it was a runway, it wasn't used very often. View Large View MediumPhoto © Mick West
26 Post contains links and images BOACVC10 : okay, I am curious, the reg on the Northwest a/c says N373US which is mentioned in other websites (e.g. jetphotos) and the following manufacturer dat
27 Glom : I think the xwind runway could only be used at 23. I don't think it was declared at 05.
28 FlyingClrs727 : Heathrow should be expanded to 4 runways, and STN and LGW should be expanded to 2 runways. With open skies, low cost transatlantic hubs could be deve
29 Post contains links Viscount724 : As far as I know, registrations in the U.S. are often reused. Once a registration is cancelled (aircraft sold, retired, scrapped etc.), I believe any
30 Trintocan : Runway 05/23 was decommissioned last year, IIRC. It is used as a taxiway now. The approach lighting fixtures leading to it are still in place though.
31 Post contains images LHRBlueSkies : What a diplomatic response! Tell you what, let's just knock down London and make it one big airport! The same can be done with Manhatten for EWR & JF
32 EKSkycargo370 : Does anyone know if there are any photos (apart from the one already posted) of landings on RWY23?
33 R2rho : Sure. Totally agree. But where to put them? Don't you think that, given the circumstances, LHR has reached its limit and can't be helped anymore? Thi
34 EKSkycargo370 : LHR has reached its limits,how can they keep offering airlines slots,its becoming far too dangerous already?
35 Post contains images CXfirst : I say, have a really fast train link from LHR to the proposed site in the thread starter. Build a small, ticket, check-in, baggage-claim, arrival hall
36 Zvezda : I disagree. Better avionics would allow both tighter slots and higher safety.
37 FlyingClrs727 : You're talking about England not Texas. It's a lot harder to find large undeveloped land near a big city like London. LHR already has ground transpor
38 StarGoldLHR : It depends.. if my house is worth £200k and they offer me £250k to move thats cool. If my house is worth £200k and it devalues to £50km knowing t
39 Post contains images CPH757 : Well, for starters, nobody says that an airport is de facto owned by a government. It could also be the case that there has always been housing zonin
40 Zvezda : Move to below the new approach.
41 Sv2008 : STN and LGW will probably get 2nd runways, and LHR a 3rd. LTN recently applied for a 2nd runway didn't it? That'll be be interesting! Probably more l
42 6YJJK : The usual chicken-and-egg problem, though. This maglev link probably wouldn't happen till the cost came down - but such a massive scheme might be jsu
43 Tristarsteve : Although in recent years it has only been used as 23, many years ago 05 was in use. I seem to remember that the BOAC B707 that crashed at LHR on fire
44 TristarSteve : Yes, I used to go spotting at Wisley in the mid 60s. There was a hill just off the E end of the runway and you could sit there and watch the VC10s co
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