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Acars "out" Times  
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5061 posts, RR: 43
Posted (7 years 5 months 3 days ago) and read 3630 times:

I was recently involved in a discussion at a Union meeting, and the subject of ACARS "out" times arose, and no one could come up with a definite answer.

At my airline, the "out" time of the aircraft is sent to Operations via the ACARS, and it is determined by having both the parking brake released, and all doors closed. I assumed this was the case at all airlines, but the possibility was raised that the parameters the ACARS uses can be set by the airline.

Is this true?

Namely are there any other airlines around that use different parameters for establishing the "out" time? I seem to recall someone mentioning here that at his airline, the beacon being ON, set the out time.

I am curious to hear what other airlines use.

Cheers.


Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 3 days ago) and read 3611 times:

I think US East requires a rotation of the fwd nose gear for the acars system to register the out time..... I know at AA, MQ and US West, it was simply the pax doors closed and the parking brake released.


Why do I fly???
User currently offlineGift4tbone From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 612 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 3 days ago) and read 3594 times:

From what i recall, it varies by a/c.

i can only speak for US east, a/c

E170, when door is shut.
E190, parking break released
737, push back(nose wheel rolling)
319/320, pushback (nose wheel...)
757, doors closed, and p-brake released
CRJs, active taxi

Hope this helps...

-Tony@PVD



Top 3 airports: PVD 26.0%(115 flights), PHL 15.6%(69 flights), PHX 12.0%(53 flights)
User currently offlineS5FA170 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 534 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 3 days ago) and read 3586 times:

For Republic/Shuttle America on the Embraer 170/175 - the 1L Vent Flap must be closed and the parking brake has to be released.


Prepare doors for departure and cross-check.
User currently offlineN710PS From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3536 times:

Out is door closed wheel movement equal to ten feet kicks ACARS in on PSA birds and as far as I know the same for mainliners I think. that give you your out times. We routinely get the ontime by rolling ten than set brakes and wait.


There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25840 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3466 times:

ACARS message prompting is highly configurable by the operator.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3312 times:

Midwest is one complete rotation of the tires which comes out to about 5 feet.

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

Quoting N710PS (Reply 4):
Out is door closed wheel movement equal to ten feet kicks ACARS in on PSA birds and as far as I know the same for mainliners I think. that give you your out times. We routinely get the ontime by rolling ten than set brakes and wait.

You do understand that's fraud, right?


User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

Quoting N710PS (Reply 4):
We routinely get the ontime by rolling ten than set brakes and wait.

Hahahah, we used to do that all the time at the old gig. If we were waiting for paperwork, we'd roll 'til we got an ACARS "out" and hand the paperwork out the cockpit windows. Kinda tricky on a 737.  Smile

Zvezda, the only real fraud is the information the "experts" have given the airline execs telling them >30 is a legitimate turn time for a full 737-700.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

Quoting JayDub (Reply 8):
Zvezda, the only real fraud is the information the "experts" have given the airline execs telling them >30 is a legitimate turn time for a full 737-700.

No, consumers rely on the on-time departure statistics. Cheating them is defrauding your passengers. In some places, they'd saw off a hand for that.


User currently offlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 725 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3199 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
No, consumers rely on the on-time departure statistics. Cheating them is defrauding your passengers. In some places, they'd saw off a hand for that.

Wow.. little over dramatic aren't we??? and furthermore.. officially the ontime statistics are NOT from the out times.. they're from Arrival +14 in the US... so.....

Flight is scheduled to arrive at 10:00 AM
Flight actually arrives at 10:14 AM - Flight is officially ON TIME by DOT statistics
if Flight actually arrives at 10:15 AM then the flight is now late...

On the flip side.. the all important thing we like the out times for is so we get paid!!!! We're (crew) working after all.. might as well get "on the clock"



"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3176 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
No, consumers rely on the on-time departure statistics. Cheating them is defrauding your passengers.

Dude, we're talking minutes here. This happens in one form or another everyday on every ACARS-equipped aircraft...yet you, the BD Gold, LH Senator, SQ QPP4, UA MillionMiler frequent flyer that you are...never noticed until we said something about it here on A.net. Perhaps, then, it's not really that huge of an issue to the average passenger?

As ThePinnacleKid stated above, USDoT On-Time stats are based on A14. The airlines judge station performance by D0 (departure within zero minutes of scheduled time). When you're going to come up short on turn time, doing a short push for ACARS activation, then completing paperwork saves the station alot of grief from corporate on the ops conference call the following day...

A short roll is no different than airlines who have configured their ACARS "out" times as "doors closed/brakes released", and sitting in the gate for 5 minutes waiting for pushback with the parking brakes released and an "out" time registered.

[Edited 2007-06-02 21:37:34]

User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3160 times:

Quoting JayDub (Reply 11):
Perhaps, then, it's not really that huge of an issue to the average passenger?

I could care less about it quite honestly. Fraud....give me a break.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3139 times:

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 10):
officially the ontime statistics are NOT from the out times.. they're from Arrival +14 in the US... so.....

Mea culpa. I withdraw my comments.  blush 


User currently offlineAsuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3105 times:

ACARS? What's that? You don't call in your times?

Signed,

Mesa Airlines

Quoting LongHauler (Thread starter):
Namely are there any other airlines around that use different parameters for establishing the "out" time? I seem to recall someone mentioning here that at his airline, the beacon being ON, set the out time.

I want to say I heard a US West crew explain it had something to do with engine oil pressure in the #1 engine.


User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2673 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3091 times:

We are :

A319- doors closed
A321- full rotation of tire (nose)

Apparently, it is different for different airlines..



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offline727Stretch From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3034 times:

When I worked at UA the pilots always said it was when the parking brake was released. Occasionally you'd have a pilot who'd want to start their time clock early and release the brakes while the jetbridge was still attached and rampers were still loading bags. It's quite a shock to be in the pit loading bags and feel the airplane roll a bit like that. Occasionally we'd have flights closed up so early with all pax and bags on, we'd push 'em back :15E or so, but ACARS would not register due to it being so early..LOL.

Apparently with DL, the OUT time is registered when the pilot flicks the rotating beacon on....This is what a buddy of mine who worked for DL says (and seems highly unlikely but appears to be true by verifying DL's OUT times with their Deltamatic system)...interesting. For anyone who works at airports, you can check this out - if you see a DL airplane sitting at the gate with jetbridge still up and bags still being loaded, but the rotating beacon on - go to delta.com and check the flight # if you know it. 9 times out of 10 it will show an out time.


User currently offlineN710PS From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 7):

Far from fraud, I make McDonalds money as it is. If ATC can't get their act together or the million other reasons I am getting my moolah. It is common pratice to push ten with the door closed to get the out time. You would be amazed at what some of the regionals that fly types without an ACARS can get away with when they call for times. It is in no way fraud because we have passengers on board and the bins are closed. When your waiting for the OF11E and you have one minute to go it is pretty normal pratice.



There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2176 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 2968 times:

Quoting 727Stretch (Reply 16):
at UA the pilots always said it was when the parking brake was released

yup.

Does Southwest have acars yet??? grin


User currently offline737tanker From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2927 times:

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 18):
Does Southwest have acars yet??? grin

SWA does have ACARs. At SWA the out time is when all doors are closed (to include the cargo doors) and the parking brake has been released. The in time is when the parking brake has been set and at least door has been opened.

[Edited 2007-06-03 05:07:45]

User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 971 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2891 times:

Quoting 727Stretch (Reply 16):
Apparently with DL, the OUT time is registered when the pilot flicks the rotating beacon on....

DL records out time through ACARS when the rotating beacon is on and the door is closed.


User currently offlineAA787823 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2885 times:

Dont forget the Captain can always override ACARS and give you a different out time. If I new I had a delay I would always send a young attractive female with a short skirt to dispatch the airplane.....10 mins late...oops on time...

User currently offlineEIPremier From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2820 times:

Anyone know how AS does its "out" times? I've noticed at SEA, even on days with good weather they will sometimes record 25 or 30 minute "taxi out" times. Yet any time I've flown out of SEA it seems like taxi out was less than 15 min.

User currently offlineLHRBlueSkies From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 493 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2811 times:

Obviously everyone uses ACARS differently, and for different reasons. Some for punctuality figures for movement messages, some for internal auditing, some for contacting crews - it's a great tool, easily manipulated.

As far as punctuality tables go, here many airlines work on departure times for 'wow-ing' the punters as well as arrival statistics - they are all bogus anyway, as the ACARS times are fiddled, times altered, and so on. Everyone lies!



flying is the safest form of transport - until humans get involved!
User currently offlineSTJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2737 times:

At NW (and it's regionals) it is out/off (out = door/brake and off = rotation) and on/in (on = touchdown and in = brake/door) but as stated above it is the A14 (in time) that the DOT uses for on-time and that off course cannot be fudged if the plane is not even on the ground yet it is late. So if it is fudged (and yes we probably have all done or seen it done) on the out time, if the crew cannot make up the time in flight and the flight is late arriving then it is late.

25 N710PS : No such thing as a "taxi out" time. There is an out time and off time an on time and an in time. Normally there is padding alloted to block for taxi
26 Movingtin : To be more correct, for those airlines that look at wheel rotation, it is main wheel rotation not nose wheel. Only the mains have antiskid transducers
27 EIPremier : I meant the difference between the "departure time" and the wheels up time, which would be the out time and the off time. Obviously the plane is not
28 PSU.DTW.SCE : How about CO's IAH operation. At least on the narrowbodies pushing from C, the will close up and push on time. Then hold at the end of ramp and finish
29 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Well you probably already know this, but the last minute bag while waiting to start a motor once in a while makes a happy customer rather than drive
30 LongHauler : Thanks for all of your answers. True to form, this is the best place to hear it from the "Horse's Mouth".
31 ThePinnacleKid : IAHFLYR..... just a random comment... but you guys are awesome! it's always a good feeling at the end of a four day on the last leg to finally get bac
32 Slider : Bin door openings are also something that is measured and discussed on daily operational conference calls...it gets a great deal of attention.
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