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AA's MD-11's And DC 10's  
User currently offlineUtilianPilot07 From Honduras, joined Jun 2004, 96 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9969 times:

Hello Everyone,

I was looking through pictures of American Airlines and ran into some of the DC-10 and MD-11. Do you have any Idea why American got rid of them?

Thanks


The Bin 3 Tight Stack!!
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3299 posts, RR: 44
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9942 times:

Quoting UtilianPilot07 (Thread starter):
I was looking through pictures of American Airlines and ran into some of the DC-10 and MD-11. Do you have any Idea why American got rid of them?

The DC-10s were getting really old, and really uneconomical to operate, especially with other carriers competing with newer, more fuel efficient planes, and newer avionics.

Not entirely sure what the story is with the MD-11s. I know many of them, if not all, were sold to FedEx. My guess was, with the newer planes like the 777 coming in, which were just overall better planes, they weren't needed.

Somebody else will have more details than I, if they haven't already posted them.

Cheers from SXM,
Cameron


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9881 times:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 1):
Not entirely sure what the story is with the MD-11s.

I believe the issue with the AA MD-11s was that they didn't fulfill performance promisses, so AA got rid of them. In the case of the DC-10, I believe they actually stayed with AA even when the MD-11 was already gone but then eventually left when they became too expensive to operate.


User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9846 times:

IIRC, wasn't the dispatch reliablility of the MD11's extremely low? I thought I remebered that Fedex reengined them when they got them.... I dunno.. I could be wrong...


Why do I fly???
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9831 times:

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 3):
I thought I remebered that Fedex reengined them when they got them.... I dunno.. I could be wrong...

Sounds odd, given the costs of re-engining. FX operated GE powered MD-11s at first, before acquiring Pratt powered models, and AA also used the CF6-80 on their MD-11, so it doesn't make sense that those MD-11s were re-engined, unless you mean that they got all three engines changed at the time prior to delivery to FX.


User currently offlineMop357 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9761 times:

The DC 10 and MD 11 burned too much fuel while cruizing at Mach .88, and the T7 was so much more econmic with the latest technology at the time.
I think the DC10 crashed cause irreprable damage to its rupation, and the MD 11 also gave a lot of mechanic problems.
Finally, United is a good competitor for AA. United was the launch coustomer for the T7. American would not let their competitor fly the new planes by themself without competing.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9749 times:

Well, AA made some bizarro moves with widebodies in the late 1980's/early 1990's, like putting DC-10's on flights that built cycles quickly, like ELP-DFW and SAT-DFW. I always wondered about these flights, as the DC-10 was engineered as a long-haul aircraft, and these short flights would have probably built up cycles much quicker than if they were flown on long-haul segments.


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineDeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1653 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9679 times:

As previously mentioned, the MD-11 didn't live up to performance promises. One specifially that I remember was its so called range from DFW to NRT, that route became a problem with fuel stops and such. They also wanted the MD-11 to operate from SJC to NRT and there was something that didn't work on that route either. HOWEVER I do remember when the MD-11 first joined the AA fleet. THere was a tone of hoopla around it and a lot of excitement and press.

User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3238 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9621 times:

Insofar as AA's utilization of the DC-10s is concerned, one should remember that the airline's first DC10s were of the early -10 variant, which were expressly designed for short-to-medium haul routes with heavy traffic. As such, the use of those birds on the intra-Texas routes does make some sense. The airline later used the long-haul -30 variant and together both types served the airline until the early part of this century. The decline of air travel after 11 September 2001 was the main reason for their retirement, along with the planes' advancing ages. AA decided to simplify their fleet by removing their F100s, DC-10s... and MD11s.

The disappointment of AA with the MD11's performance was one of the major issues facing McDonnell Douglas back in the early 1990s, AA even demanded compensation for keeping the planes. While McD did rectify the problems somewhat and developed a more capable -ER version of the trijet, the greater efficiency of the 777 on just 2 engines spelt the end of the road for the MD11 at AA and indeed other carriers - the freight market has proved perfect for the MD11 though.

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2889 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9571 times:

Quoting Trintocan (Reply 8):
The decline of air travel after 11 September 2001 was the main reason for their retirement, along with the planes' advancing ages. AA decided to simplify their fleet by removing their F100s, DC-10s... and MD11s.

When were the last of the DC-10s and MD-11s retired from AA fleet from pax service??

Karan


User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2438 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9426 times:

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 9):
When were the last of the DC-10s and MD-11s retired from AA fleet from pax service??

MD-11 was about November 2001.
DC-10 was about November 2000.


AA press release from August 20, 2001:

AMERICAN AIRLINES TO RETIRE ADDITIONAL AIRCRAFT

FORT WORTH, Texas – American Airlines today announced that it would accelerate the reti rement of five additional Boeing 727 aircraft. The aircraft will be grounded during the fourth quarter of 2001 and the first quarter of 2002, rather than in 2003, as originally planned. In addition, American will retire its remaining four MD-11 aircraft by Nov. 1, ahead of its previous plan to retire this fleet near year end.

These actions are the most recent in a series of steps taken by American to match its fleet and capacity plans to the weaker economic climate. American announced in June that it would advance the retirement of 22 aircraft, including TWA’s entire fleet of 19 DC-9s, two Boeing 727s and one Fokker 100. In July, American arranged not to take delivery of five used MD-80s that were scheduled to join the fleet this year as part of the TWA asset acquisition. And just earlier this month, American announced that it would ground five Boeing 727s, originally scheduled to leave the fleet in 2003, by the end of 2001.



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9377 times:

The last DC-10 flight was 11/21/2000 on HNL-DFW. The DC-10's served a long life and were retired as scheduled from AA. At their peak they had a large fleet of -10's and -30's. AA started to retire DC-10's in the mid 90's, starting with the oldest -10's. The -30's stayed on the longest. The DC-10 was AA's primary Trans-Atlantic aircraft until the arrival of the 767's, later the MD-11's, and 777's. At one point, with their growing Trans-Atlantic routes, and obtaining and expanding MIA, they were so short on widebodies, that they configured the A300's to fly Trans-Atlantic. In the twilight of their career, there were limited to flying a few trans-cons, and then finally for the last year or so they were strictly flown to/from Hawaii. Simply put, as said they were retired because they were getting old, uneconomical, and AA has grown its 777 fleet to a sufficient size that they could backfill the Hawaii DC-10 routes with 763's. They had enough widebodies between its 762, 763, 777, A300, and MD-11 aircraft.

The MD-11's, on the other hand, did not meet expectations. They were retired due to a number of factors - airline downturn post 9/11, redundant to 777 fleet, initial performance problems that let everyone with a bad taste in their mouth, AA have too much complexity in their fleet, and FedEx gobbling up MD-11's on the second hand market. The last MD-11 route was October 14/15?, 2001 on GRU-DFW.

The DC-10's were in AA's fleet for over 28 years, the MD-11's, lasted less than 12. Interesting they were retired within a year of each other.


User currently offlineLexy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9364 times:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 1):
My guess was, with the newer planes like the 777 coming in

That is the reason the MD-11 was taken out of the fleet. The 777 proved to be a better aircraft all the way around.



Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1540 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9252 times:

Quoting Deltaflyertoo (Reply 7):
They also wanted the MD-11 to operate from SJC to NRT and there was something that didn't work on that route either.

The runway at SJC was too short for the MD-11/DC-10 to take off fully loaded, the aircraft had to stop in Oakland on the way to pick up more fuel.


User currently offlineLevg79 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9223 times:

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 13):
The runway at SJC was too short for the MD-11/DC-10 to take off fully loaded

How much longer are LGA runways compared to SJC? I remember reading that DC-10 was specifically designed to operate out of LGA. I doubt that SJC runways are much shorter, if at all.

Leo.



A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9212 times:

Quoting Trintocan (Reply 8):
the freight market has proved perfect for the MD11 though.

Why is that?


User currently offlineLevg79 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9207 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 15):
Quoting Trintocan (Reply 8):
the freight market has proved perfect for the MD11 though.

Why is that?

Because it can haul more cargo than other widebodies and the range is sufficient, much bigger than A300.

Leo.



A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
User currently offlineBrucek From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9115 times:

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 16):

Not more cargo than a B744 though? I think that the poster wondered why the MD-11 had been such a cargo hauler success when the B744 might carry more. Perhaps the MD-11's are cheaper to purchase by the cargo carriers, offsetting the smaller load on each flight compared to the 744?

Bruce.


User currently offlineN501US From United States of America, joined May 2005, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9091 times:
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Quoting Levg79 (Reply 14):
How much longer are LGA runways compared to SJC? I remember reading that DC-10 was specifically designed to operate out of LGA. I doubt that SJC runways are much shorter, if at all.

This goes back to the differnt series of DC-10s. To paraphrase from above, The -10 was designed for short-medium routes (e.g. LGA-ORD) while -30 was for intercontinental routes.

As for the MD-11, IIRC the AA pilots referred to them as SCUDs because they were never quite sure where they were going to land!

Cheers,



Fools and thieves are well disguised in the temple and the marketplace.....
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9086 times:
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Also remember that the DC10's and the 727's were three person cockpit crews, so another expense to operate.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7496 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9056 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
Well, AA made some bizarro moves with widebodies in the late 1980's/early 1990's, like putting DC-10's on flights that built cycles quickly, like ELP-DFW and SAT-DFW. I always wondered about these flights, as the DC-10 was engineered as a long-haul aircraft, and these short flights would have probably built up cycles much quicker than if they were flown on long-haul segments.

Before deregulation,AA used to use DC-10's on LGA-ROC! Now the flight is donw with Dash 8's!



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9052 times:

American operated 66 different DC-10s during their service life, altho not all at the same time. About half were bought by FedEx after AA retired them. Then about half of the FedEx-bought birds were converted into MD-10s. The rest were dismantled for spare parts. One of the ex-AA DC-10 is now that water-tanker that some outfit converted.
All 19 MD-11s that AA bought & operated were sold to FedEx as well. All were fitted GE engines, and FedEx retained them that way. You can't change engines on the MD-11 from GE to PW or vice-versa. The wing & pylons are not interchangable for most aircraft. The first 777 assembled is the only exception, AFAIK.
Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3798 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8683 times:
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Quoting Levg79 (Reply 14):
I remember reading that DC-10 was specifically designed to operate out of LGA. I doubt that SJC runways are much shorter, if at all.

Yes, but the DC-10 was originally designed for high capacity domestic short to medium haul flights, American launched it with United for that purpose. it was only two or three years later that Mc Donnell Douglas came out with the DC-10-30 Intercontinental. The MD-11 was designed as a successor to the DC-10-30, not the DC-10-10, so it was already expected to fulfill long haul missions. The MD-11 had a payload problem when taking off out of SJC because it wasn't able to take off with all the fuel required to fly to NRT. My father used to fly a lot from SJC to NRT, I remember he used to tell me he had to stop in OAK or SFO for a fuel stop before continuing to NRT. That was in the mid 90's when American didn't have 777's.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineLijnden From Philippines, joined Apr 2003, 564 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8448 times:
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I thought that the main reason why AA retired the DC-10, MD-11 and Fokker 100 had to do with that both McDonnell Douglas and Fokker stopped being around, causing a vacuum in parts and factory assistance with mx issues?

Another reason might have been the demand of MD-11 planes in the airline cargo world. With basically no MD-11's in storage and with a fast growing cargo demand of the late 80's and early 90's, most airliners received top-$ for their passengers MD-11's. Some airliners converted the MD-11's for own cargo needs.

(Think of airliners that once flew passengers with MD-11's: Delta, JAL, Thai, Swiss[air], Garuda, Alitalia, Lufthansa, EVA, Korean, China Airlines, Mandarin, MAS, LTU, Martinair and others ).



Be kind to animals!
User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1540 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8422 times:

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 14):
How much longer are LGA runways compared to SJC? I remember reading that DC-10 was specifically designed to operate out of LGA. I doubt that SJC runways are much shorter, if at all.

Because DC-10s flying from LGA carry a fraction of the fuel that a DC-10 flying SJC-NRT carries.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 15):
Why is that?

They are relatively cheap, they were plentiful (IIRC there are a handful in storage right now), a high MTOW and pretty long legged.

The MD-11 could well still be in production today as a Freighter had Boeing not killed it so quickly. Lufthansa was looking to buy more new builds but Boeing would have none.


25 NorthStarDC4M : One additional point on the MD-11 as a freighter: A MCDD sales insert for the MD-11F gives specs for the MD-11F vs the 747-200F and then has this nice
26 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Some 747s have been re-engined from P&W to GE. Here's one: P&W: GE: View Large View Medium Photo © Jordi Steeno This aircraft was written off after
27 FlyDreamliner : MD-11 didn't perform as promised. Both DL and AA had issues getting it to make it on their asian routes and the fuel stops were really hurting them. O
28 Post contains links CitationJet : AA's MD-11 and DC-10 fleet: http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/fleets/aa.html McDONNELL DOUGLAS DC-10 N101AA 10 46500/1 101 N10DC 12/72 01/95 WFU MARA
29 Viscount724 : " target=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/fl....html As you probably know, that site hasn't been updated for years, as indicated by it still s
30 Post contains images Phatfarmlines : In addition, this was the DC-10-10 variant that flew to LGA. The DC-10-30 & MD-11 has a longer wingspan, which I am not certain if it would have been
31 LMP737 : Even though MD is no longer around product support is still provided by Boeing.[Edited 2007-06-02 22:09:29]
32 PExDCA : My understanding from a friend who worked for AA in those days was the reason for the ELP-DFW and SAT-DFW widebody flying was that AA had negotiated
33 AA787823 : Only 2x did it ever do that. Both times were with the -10. After that the flight was weight restricted and it flew with many empty seats so they woul
34 EKSkycargo370 : Why don't AA start operating a cargo division,MD11 and DC10 freighters perhaps?? Pure madness not too!
35 ElmoTheHobo : At the outset, before the runway was lengthened this was done. When the runway was extended the route went nonstop. There was an article about this i
36 PSU.DTW.SCE : For the F100's this was an issue, but not for the DC-10 & MD-11. Boeing continued production of the MD-11 until they ran out the order backlog, almos
37 CALPSAFltSkeds : There may have been some DC10-10's that operated out of LGA, but with LGA's runways being only 7,000 feet, range was an issue and I'm sure the DC10-10
38 ElmoTheHobo : They had one back in the day, it closed up shop in either the early 1980s or late 1970s (exact date anyone?). They didn't see the use in it then, and
39 Post contains images Viscount724 : DC-10-10s were quite common at LGA, especialy in the 1970s and early '80s. AA, UA and National all operated them there. If memory correct, AA and UA
40 Ha763 : I've read the MD-11 will weight out very close to when it volumes out, which is good for a freighter.
41 Jfk777 : Eastern also used L-1011' and A300 at LGA. AA's MD-11 were a common sight at the usual 777 destinations, LHR, NRT, EZE and GRU. From Miami to South Am
42 AA787823 : AA never operated an all freighter version of the DC-10 or the MD11. They had 747F and 707F
43 TrijetsRMissed : AA had wanted to replace the DC-10 for years following AA 191. In the '80s, the 763ERs and A306Rs were considered as replacements but instead used as
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