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KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB  
User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5547 times:

According to The Korea Herald KE looks forward to starting new flights to Sao Paulo and Johannesburg.


Korean Air, South Korea's largest airline, wants to start flights to Johannesburg in South Africa and Sao Paulo in Brazil as it expands into emerging economies to tap the growth in air travel.

The Seoul-based carrier aims to start services within a year of getting approval from the governments, Park Yong-soon, Korean Air's managing vice president of international affairs and alliance, said in an interview yesterday.

www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2007/06/07/200706070021.asp



I know Air China flies PEK-GRU via MAD, Japan Airlines NRT-GRU via JFK, what routing should we expect from Korea to Brazil?

[Edited 2007-06-06 13:08:31]

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

Korean Airlines flew to Sao Paulo via Los Angeles until 2001 IIRC, maybe we can expect some of the same.

User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4516 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
I know Air China flies PEK-GRU via MAD, Japan Airlines NRT-GRU via JFK, what routing should we expect from Korea to Brazil?

Well, last time around they went via LAX, flying SEL LAX GRU a couple of times a week with MD11 and later B744, so they could just resume that service, although given the ever increasing number of visa restraints in the US, they might very well opt for an alternative transit point for such a service.

[Edited 2007-06-06 13:16:35]

User currently offlineMarioSPlane From Brazil, joined Mar 2007, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5493 times:

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
I know Air China flies PEK-GRU via MAD, Japan Airlines NRT-GRU via JFK, what routing should we expect from Korea to Brazil?

My guess would be a routing via LAX since Korean did serve GRU via LAX in the 90´s.

Cheers


User currently offlineMIASkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5421 times:

How about MIA? KE Cargo already flies to MIA with 744 and MAH...posted some time ago that both Korean and JAL have interest in flying passenger routes to MIA.

Could be possible! the ERA of the Dreamliner is just around the corner...



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User currently offlineAirlineAddict From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5330 times:
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Routing via LAX would be a smart move if they can get fifth freedom LAX - GRU - LAX as there is currently no non-stop service from LAX to GRU.

User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5313 times:

I've heard South Africa is blocking an increase in frequency for Malaysia to EZE. They will put any obstable they can into Korean's path.


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User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17822 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5253 times:

Why did KE can ICN/GRU the first time around?


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMarioSPlane From Brazil, joined Mar 2007, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5158 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Why did KE can ICN/GRU the first time around?

Did you mean cancel ?

It was credited to the aftermath of the asian emerging markets crisis in the late 90´s. I really don´t remember the exact year they´ve quit operating in GRU, so I can´t really state the connection between the facts.

Cheers


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17822 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5114 times:

Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 8):
Did you mean cancel ?

Yeah...to "can" something is to cancel/close/86/end/wrap

Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 8):
I really don´t remember the exact year they´ve quit operating in GRU

It must have been 9/11 since it was at 3x weekly until the end of 2000 when it went between 2 and 3 weekly and finally ended SEP01.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3736 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5114 times:

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
I know Air China flies PEK-GRU via MAD, Japan Airlines NRT-GRU via JFK, what routing should we expect from Korea to Brazil?

According to the Korea-Brazil bilateral, KE may fly to GRU or GIG via LAX, SFO, IAH, DFW, ATL, New Zealand, Australia, Canada and Latin America.
Most probably they will try it via LAX, but if they are willing to innovate they could try interesting routes via:

ATL or IAH, since the support of Skyteam hubs wouldn't hurt. The route through LAX is longer anyway...
PTY, because flying through a country where visas are not required for Brazilians wouldn't be such a bad idea. When is CM joining Sky? PTY would require a 777, but KE is phasing out their 744 anyway.
YYZ could work, but a Star hub would not be the best fit, I guess. Wouldn't YYZ and GRU fight each other in terms of yields? Perhaps they could fly through YVR and fill Y with Brazilian teenagers from December to February.
AKL or SYD. Wouldn't that be too long? SYD we might just forget, since I see Korea and Australia going to war before Qantas ever agrees to that.

After a revision of the bilateral, we could see following:

AMS, since the Netherlands are liberal, they might even question why they never thought of it. KL is a partner and could help, but I don't know if AF will be so fond of the idea, since they are starting new flights to Brazil.
SVO, since it is a Sky hub and I see SU supporting it. A Russia-Brazil link would be very interesting and welcome.
FCO, since the Italy and Brazil have good ties, but I don't see Italy agreeing to 5th freedom rights.
VIE has been served from Brazil before, why not again...?
PRG, IST and CAI would be exotic very interesting additions to the destinations that can be reached nonstop from GRU. PRG has the advantage of being a Sky hub.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Why did KE can ICN/GRU the first time around?

Because of 9/11, I presume. Wasn't it after it?

[Edited 2007-06-06 17:19:11]

User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5041 times:

Would KE fly ICN-JNB nonstop? What type of aircraft is it likely to fly to JNB?

User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4984 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
PTY, because flying through a country where visas are not required for Brazilians wouldn't be such a bad idea. When is CM joining Sky? PTY would require a 777, but KE is phasing out their 744 anyway.

Yes, it sounds interesting, but there are some factors that work against KE flying to GRU via PTY:
Range - ICN-PTY, a CTS stop my dampen it but it would make the service very unattractive. If ANC gets TWOV allowances, that's another thing.
CM - CM wouldn't like to have an SkyTeam competitor on the PTY-GRU route, specially if flying widebodies; but all the connecting possibilities may make them reconsider that.
Yellowfever vaccination certificate - Now all passengers flying thru PTY hub to/from Brazil must have one.
I definetly would like to see Asian flights again in PTY (BR flew here) but I'm not sure if PTY is on any Asian airline radar now.

Want an exotic suggestion for a KE ICN-GRU? Fly it via HAV.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3736 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4950 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
Yes, it sounds interesting, but there are some factors that work against KE flying to GRU via PTY:
Range - ICN-PTY, a CTS stop my dampen it but it would make the service very unattractive. If ANC gets TWOV allowances, that's another thing.

Really? Even with the 77W? I am not very familiar with the North Pacific restrictions. Why would TWOV be needed for ANC, when the flight would only overfly Alaska?

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
Yellowfever vaccination certificate - Now all passengers flying thru PTY hub to/from Brazil must have one.

Even when it is a mere stop?

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
Want an exotic suggestion for a KE ICN-GRU? Fly it via HAV.

LOL!  laughing 


User currently offlineMAS777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2937 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4930 times:

KE would do well to bring MH on as a partner for JNB (+ CPT if it wished).
KE and MH already code-share on the ICN-KUL route and KE's flight times arrive in excellent time to connect with MH's onward service to JNB and CPT.
If KE wanted to fly the route in its own right then a stopover in KUL would also bolster MH's service (should they code-share).

Begs the question as to exactly how long the other Skyteam partners would wait for AF's approval for MH's entry...


User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4925 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
VIE has been served from Brazil before, why not again...?

It would be really appreciated  Wink


User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4860 times:

The only feasible places for starting such flight would be through LAX or JFK. Canada is a very restrictive market! It would never work!!

In Europe, AF&KL already take care of that for KE, besides competition from LH.

So it's either through a US point or nothing.

Anyways, I doubt KE will risk coming to Brazil without a strong partner & a good intermediate stop.
The market between Brazil & Korean is smaller, when compared to Japan & China.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4792 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 13):
Why would TWOV be needed for ANC, when the flight would only overfly Alaska?

If the route is ICN-ANC-PTY-GRU, ANC being a (tech-) stop.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 13):
Even when it is a mere stop?

Well, I can't assure that. 1st only passengers traveling between PTY and Brazil were required to have Yellowfever vaccination certificates, now all passengers no matter if they're only connecting to/from Brazil @ PTY need it.
It would be very likely that if any passengers on such a Asia-PTY-Brazil flight was to go to stretch his/her legs at PTY duty free area, regardless if traveling on the same aircraft, Brazil will require him/her a vaccination certificate.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 666 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4750 times:

KE says a lot of those words, "We will soon fly to somewhere" or "We have plans to fly somewhere", something like that. Already MEX, MIA, and IAH are "on order". Then, suddenly start LAS since JAL pulled out, and suddenly VIE and MAD were launched. They should upgrade 772ERs soon with AVOD and new F/C seats, before expanding network.

Anyway, if KE resumes GRU, I think it will be via LAX since KE has full fifth freedom and they did well several years ago. One thing I mind is that the aircraft used to stay in GRU for 18 hours before coming back, and KE does not like long layover anymore. (SYD and AKL became quick turn.) Or, GRU-LAX can be a daytime flight - then KE can avoid such long layover at GRU, like 1200-2000 on GRU-LAX.

Also, JNB will via BKK as announced before. KE tries to launch this route this NOV, not confirmed yet though. 3 weekies with 772ER is their initial plan. And ICN-AMN will be launched this NOV, but also not confirmed yet.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4721 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
Well, last time around they went via LAX, flying SEL LAX GRU a couple of times a week with MD11 and later B744, so they could just resume that service, although given the ever increasing number of visa restraints in the US, they might very well opt for an alternative transit point for such a service.

And dont forget that Brazil's VASP also operated GRU-LAX-SEL with the MD-11 in the late 1990s.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 16):
Anyways, I doubt KE will risk coming to Brazil without a strong partner & a good intermediate stop.

I agree that If KE comes back to GRU it will be via LAX. KE already has the partnership of LA in Latin America and in LAX specifically. In fact, LA currently operates LAX-LIM-GRU. KE could operate LAX-GRU full codeshare with LA.

Rgs,


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3736 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4656 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 17):
If the route is ICN-ANC-PTY-GRU, ANC being a (tech-) stop.

That was exactly what I was questioning it. Why the ANC tech-stop at all? The distance between ICN and PTY is 7666 nm and the range of the 77E is 7730 nm and of the 77W is 7930 nm.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4637 times:

What about GVA or ZRH? Even AMS. . . RG tried to fly to NGO from these places, but got a no-no from Japan (reason - too much competition for Japanese airlines  Yeah sure ). Could work for Korea though.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
ATL or IAH, since the support of Skyteam hubs wouldn't hurt.

Would be really cool, but through the USA is a bit more complicated. . .

[Edited 2007-06-06 23:02:11]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4423 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
AMS, since the Netherlands are liberal, they might even question why they never thought of it. KL is a partner and could help

I dont think KE would operate via AMS. ICN-AMS is dominated by KLM which operates daily B747, while KE operates 3 x week A332.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 21):
What about GVA or ZRH? Even AMS. . .

KE does not operate in GVA.

Taking into account the US-VISA transit problem and 1) NYC-GRU is already extremely competitive with many players: JJ, AA, DL, CO and JAL, I would rule it out; 2) LAX is a potential market, but has very thin traffic to Brazil, and if TAM starts operations in LAX there wont be much left for KE.

This leads me to consider that KE could try to operate to GRU via Europe. Ideally this would happen via a SkyTeam hub. Currently KE operates to CDG, AMS, FCO and PRG. Of these, PRG, AMS and FCO offer a good traffic potential. PRG specialy could open a new gateway to Brazil.

Rgs,


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4306 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
That was exactly what I was questioning it. Why the ANC tech-stop at all? The distance between ICN and PTY is 7666 nm and the range of the 77E is 7730 nm and of the 77W is 7930 nm.

This is a standard range quote that does not account for airline specific equipment added to the aircraft or route specific conditions. For a PYT-ICN flight on those aircraft carrying freight would be pretty much ruled out making the economics of the flight unatractive. In bad weather days the restrictions may affect the ability to carry passengers too.

KE would never go for two stops between ICN and GRU. It would be at a disadvantage compared to several other carriers offering 1-stop service.



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User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 666 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4286 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
This leads me to consider that KE could try to operate to GRU via Europe.

That would not happen in near future unless Korean government make another aviation bilaterial with one of the nations. Currently KE does not have any 5th freedom via European countries, as far as I know. The only nations KE/Korean airliners have 5th freedom are: USA (unlimited), Japan, China, Thai, Singapore, India and Brazil (limited rights except USA), and maybe!! UAE, Russia and South Africa. And all 5th rights are used for 'via Japan' by KE's ICN-NRT-LAX.

Well, if needed, they can make another bilaterial. However, obtaining 5th freedom is not easy mostly.

[Edited 2007-06-07 15:07:14]

25 Hardiwv : Thanks for the clarification and then indeed I think KE will operate to Brazil via the US or perhaps Canada. Again, LAX would be the front runner. Ho
26 Post contains images Analog : "can" [verb]: place into a circular file (trash [can])
27 C010T3 : I know, but I thought that reducing the cargo a bit would be enough. Not always are the flights fully booked, so that would meet the weight restricti
28 MAH4546 : Korean Air announced that they are planning to fly to Miami late last year. I would not rule out the possiblity of them flying to GRU via MIA, and po
29 C010T3 : Then, I guess that the GRU-MIA should liberalised, because the capacity on this route is becoming so enormous that controlled fares don't make sense
30 HeeseokKoo : Hmm.. good question. It seems that it's not easy to open a route which includes 5th freedom. Currently I can't access the bilateral documents, so I h
31 Hardiwv : Interesting comment and MIA-GRU has such bulk traffic that any player would always capture some of the traffic, and dont forget that KE is a major pl
32 2travel2know : Talking about KE flying ICN-GRU via an U.S. airport, but what is the point if all passengers in transit must hold valid U.S. visas or be eligible for
33 EddieDude : From many angles, MH is a perfect fit for SkyTeam. I really wonder how true the rumors that AF is blocking or delaying MH's acceptance really are (or
34 BSBIsland : I think ICN-LAX-GRU would be the best choice among the options they have. LAX traffic to/from Brazil is not so thin as some people think. A few years
35 Hardiwv : Traffic Brazil-Asia via the US is almost back to pre-2001 level, since after you apply for a visa it is valid for 5 years. A lot of Brazil-Asia/Japan
36 HeeseokKoo : Not yet. It was last year or two years ago that KE says "Our next long haul destination is MEX" (not exactly this way but it was strong.) Hmm. LAX->G
37 MAS777 : There is no rumour about this unfortunately... One of the first things Idris Jala (current CEO of Malaysia Airlines) did when he tookover at the helm
38 Incitatus : The northern hemisphere has a jetstream that blows eastbound. Depending on time of the year and random factors it could hit the ground speed of an ai
39 Viscount724 : Winds can affect the groundspeed by 25% and often more. There is sometimes a difference of 2 hours between nonstop westbound and eastbound flight tim
40 C010T3 : Thank you for the explanation. I thought that the 8895 miles range with fully loaded aircraft was already the range giving up freight. But if you say
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