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Why Do F And J Class Have To Go Empty?  
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6087 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8000 times:

Cant Y class passengers be accomodated in both these sections and be given Y class service if there is no one travelling in the upper classes, or atleast J class, if F is too exclusive to even seat the crowd from Y in. Better than having the seats go empty more so if there are tons of Y class travellers who may have been rejected booking because Y is full, yet F and J are totally empty.

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31420 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7982 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

US airlines will often move elite or high-fare Economy Class passengers into First and/or Business Class to make seats available for more Economy passengers to be accommodated in an overbook or irregular operation situation. I imagine some non-US airlines do so, as well...

User currently offlinePA201 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7938 times:

First, I don't know of any airline that will bump or leave stranded a Y passenger if J or F have seats available. That practice just doesn't exist in the business, to my knowledge. Y class passengers will always be accomodated in empty premium seats in oversale situations.

Second, filling up J and F is a practice that does exist, with frequent flyer and corporate programs. Full Y passengers on many airlines qualify for premuim upgrades via many different schemes and programs. A good percentage of F and J travelers sitting in those cabins didn't pay for it - they were upgraded.

Last, as far as filling up the F and J cabins at time of departure, vs letting those seats go empty at take-off has many negative consequences for the airlines. It will send a signal to those that would be willing to pay for the service to buy a coach ticket in hopes of getting an upgrade - why buy full fare business if I can get upgraded if there is an empty seat ? Also, for those the *do* buy full fare F & J, they would grow to resent the practice of upgrading Y pax simply because the seat was open. They paid full fare, so why should they have to sit next to someone who didn't and simply played the "upgrade game" ? Would dilute the ailines yields in this cabin.

My two cents.

[Edited 2007-06-07 19:42:18]

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6087 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7938 times:

Shouldnt all do this rather than have those sections empty, actually I meant they should just seat Y class passengers in there without an upgrade, just to fill the plane up, no need for mileage points or anything else, all no special service either just regular Y class snacks or meals.

User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7927 times:

If Y class is overbooked and J class has seats then passengers will be moved forward rather than left behind. The people chosen to be moved forward are usually frequent flyers, executive card holders or they have bought a full fare Y ticket.

User currently offlineFLYACYYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7927 times:

When AC operated 3 class service, if hypothetically there was 0 load in First Class, a light load in Executive Class, and an overbooking situation in Economy Class, periodically Executive Class would occupy the forward (fF) cabin, and Economy would occupy the mid (J) cabin and of the course the aft (Y) cabin. In an early configuration, the 767-200's were configured as 10F 48J 121Y, and under these circumstances would become 10J and 169Y.

Would suggest that Emirates having bucks to burn and a high end airline, would have little or no interest in intermingling cabins, should a last minute full revenue First Class customer show for the flight, and expect the consistent and proper level of service.

If there is an overbooking situation, as on all airlines, the proper protocol of upgrading would ensue.



Above and Beyond
User currently offlineXJETFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 327 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7876 times:

The days of flying first class because of status are coming to an end. When I buy first class, I expect other first class people around me. I expect the others to be dressed in a decent manner. I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field. I think people pay good money to be there and yes it pisses me off when someone can get up there for a much cheaper rate!

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6087 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7868 times:

Thanks all, I dont know it was a norm in the industry to do so, but it still seems that there may never be a full F or J class with a Y crowd in it, not due to upgrade but over booking, imagine this on the higherr standard airlines with their ultra nice F class.

[Edited 2007-06-07 20:00:55]

User currently offlineAA2MM From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7799 times:

I have been on AA int'l flights twice . When Y was overbooked and J was empty enough on one flight, they moved all the high FF up from Y to J and kept the J service in the J cabine...and one time, AA converted the whole J cabine into Y service to accomodate the overbooked Y pax ( and moved J paid pax to F cabine with J service ) !

User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7783 times:

Quoting 777way (Thread starter):
Cant Y class passengers be accomodated in both these sections and be given Y class service if there is no one travelling in the upper classes, or atleast J class, if F is too exclusive to even seat the crowd from Y in. Better than having the seats go empty more so if there are tons of Y class travellers who may have been rejected booking because Y is full, yet F and J are totally empty.

Two reason why not:

1. Dilution. Youd have fewer people paying for premium class. People would be able to "game the system" and gey a J or F class seat paying only Y. Top Tier FF flyers woudl be upgraded but not your average leisure traveller
2. Production Degrdation: The meal and the service is part of the product. Lets say that there are 10 meals loaded for J class and 24 seats. Some airlines wont allow any more than 10 pax in premium in that case. It is not an option to allow more pax into premium and serve them a coach meal.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6087 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7737 times:

No I meant if there are no booking for F and J can the plane be filled with Y class passengers in both sections with Y class service, without an upgrade of any kind.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 9):
Two reason why not:

1. Dilution. Youd have fewer people paying for premium class. People would be able to "game the system" and gey a J or F class seat paying only Y. Top Tier FF flyers woudl be upgraded but not your average leisure traveller
2. Production Degrdation: The meal and the service is part of the product. Lets say that there are 10 meals loaded for J class and 24 seats. Some airlines wont allow any more than 10 pax in premium in that case. It is not an option to allow more pax into premium and serve them a coach meal.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7713 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 10):
No I meant if there are no booking for F and J can the plane be filled with Y class passengers in both sections with Y class service, without an upgrade of any kind.

I dont think so. The fly in my position is your scenario "No J or F class bookings" If that were the case I'd think it would be ok. If not, and I were product VP, I wouldnt want one pax sitting gettign a Y class meal, sitting next to another getting a J class meal.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6087 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7683 times:

That is what I'm trying to get across that if there were no F or J bookings, in this situation can the whole plane be filled with Y classers and Y class meals, specifically on airlines that have superior F and J cabins.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7622 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 12):
That is what I'm trying to get across that if there were no F or J bookings, in this situation can the whole plane be filled with Y classers and Y class meals, specifically on airlines that have superior F and J cabins.

It's a silly question then, as this won't happen.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7516 times:

It is indeed rare that J goes out empty, with Y class pax left behind.

On my recent trip to Canada (AC) last month, I was moved from Y to J, because Y was overbooked.

I have Star Alliance "Gold" Status, and that was the reason I got the upgrade.  


In all my years of flying (7), I've only been upgraded twice, the other occasion being from Y to J on UA, LHR - SFO - HNL, in 2003, again because of flight loads 

The other rime I flew in J (MAN - ORD - BNA - ORD - MAN) on BD / UA was a mileage redemption ticket.  



Lee

[Edited 2007-06-07 21:09:53]


Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1872 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7490 times:

Nowadays, do you know a lot of flights with empty class ? Every single flight is crowded !!  crowded   Wink

User currently offlineCPH757 From Denmark, joined Sep 2005, 684 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7361 times:

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
The days of flying first class because of status are coming to an end. When I buy first class, I expect other first class people around me. I expect the others to be dressed in a decent manner. I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field. I think people pay good money to be there and yes it pisses me off when someone can get up there for a much cheaper rate!

Well, I respect that you would not like crying babies around you, but just because people pay less than you, it pisses you off? Well, you pay what you value the product I assume, else you wouldn't buy it. The same does the other guy, and your product is the same. In the end it the best way for the airline to do the business, and secure you the best F price as well.

It pretty funny irrational behaviour, but well, people would in fact rather like a 100 sqm house than a 150 sqm house as long as theirs are bigger than the neighbors house. Mankind is great Big grin



Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17180 posts, RR: 66
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7335 times:

Quoting PA201 (Reply 2):
Second, filling up J and F is a practice that does exist, with frequent flyer and corporate programs. Full Y passengers on many airlines qualify for premuim upgrades via many different schemes and programs. A good percentage of F and J travelers sitting in those cabins didn't pay for it - they were upgraded.

This practice only really exists in North America on North American flights. That is, it is formalized only there AFAIK. In Europe you may get lucky but a free seat in F or J does not mean an automatic upgrade for a frequent flyer in Y.

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
The days of flying first class because of status are coming to an end. When I buy first class, I expect other first class people around me. I expect the others to be dressed in a decent manner. I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field. I think people pay good money to be there and yes it pisses me off when someone can get up there for a much cheaper rate!

I don't think they are coming to an end at all. No programs have changed recently AFAIK. They all allow complimentary upgrades for frequent flyers if the higher class has space.

What about those of us whose company spent tens of thousands of dollars on Y travel with the airline. Are we not entitled to an upgrade? We also "paid good money". After all, we keep the airline in business just as much as you. If the airline wants to give me the upgrade, that's fine.

I've seen Mr Greasy hands in F, J and Y class sitting there quietly. I've also seen Mr Decent Dresser behave like a drunken a-hole. The latter occurs far more often than the former.

Quoting 777way (Reply 3):
Shouldnt all do this rather than have those sections empty, actually I meant they should just seat Y class passengers in there without an upgrade, just to fill the plane up, no need for mileage points or anything else, all no special service either just regular Y class snacks or meals.



Quoting 777way (Reply 12):
That is what I'm trying to get across that if there were no F or J bookings, in this situation can the whole plane be filled with Y classers and Y class meals, specifically on airlines that have superior F and J cabins.

No. The booking system only has so many seats in Y. Even if the F and J cabin are empty the day before departure, that won' mean they won't be booked. Many F and J travelers book at the last minute.

If this were a good strategy you could be that the airlines would use it.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9518 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7319 times:

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):

My money's just as green as yours.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineXJETFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 327 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7179 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
What about those of us whose company spent tens of thousands of dollars on Y travel with the airline. Are we not entitled to an upgrade? We also "paid good money". After all, we keep the airline in business just as much as you. If the airline wants to give me the upgrade, that's fine.

I've seen Mr Greasy hands in F, J and Y class sitting there quietly. I've also seen Mr Decent Dresser behave like a drunken a-hole. The latter occurs far more often than the former.

If your company wants to fly first class then pay for it! Also greasy hands are common in my business, but I do not pay top dollar to smell grease sitting near me and my wife after spending top dollar!

Quoting STLGph (Reply 18):
My money's just as green as yours.

Yes this is true, then you should get what you pay for!


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6926 times:

Quoting PA201 (Reply 2):
It will send a signal to those that would be willing to pay for the service to buy a coach ticket in hopes of getting an upgrade - why buy full fare business if I can get upgraded if there is an empty seat ?

 checkmark  A signal that the U.S. legacies have conveyed loud and clear to "elite" members of their caste systems, which has predictably spawned a growing subculture of FFFs (frequent flyer freeloaders) who expect to sit in F for no charge beyond the cheap loss-leader coach fares they typically pay. Some even presume themselves to be entitled to be upraded to F for free when traveling on free saver coach award tickets.

Besides the revenue drain resulting from the "why pay to fly in F or J" mindset created by the legacies' FFF pay-coach-sit-in-first-class giveaway schemes, the games promoted by same turn many "elite" FFFs into maintenance-intensive (read high co$t) customers who expect even more for free than the largess to which they are entitled while typically paying bottom-end coach fares (read low yield) -- when not flying for free on saver award tickets.

As with any something-for-nothing giveaway program, demands for freebies continue to increase while the ability of the parasite host (in this case, the U.S. legacy airlines) to absorb the costs of their largess continues to decrease relative to the costs of their giveaway programs. Which is the corner into which the U.S. legacy airlines continue to paint themselves more deeply.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17180 posts, RR: 66
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6876 times:

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 19):

If your company wants to fly first class then pay for it! Also greasy hands are common in my business, but I do not pay top dollar to smell grease sitting near me and my wife after spending top dollar!

Oh do get off your high horse. The airline decided it could make more money with a big FF program and by giving perks. If you don't like it, take your business elsewhere.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAsuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6840 times:

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
The days of flying first class because of status are coming to an end. When I buy first class, I expect other first class people around me. I expect the others to be dressed in a decent manner. I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field. I think people pay good money to be there and yes it pisses me off when someone can get up there for a much cheaper rate!

I know it's elitist but still I agree completely. Why would I waste my hard earned dollars paying for an enhanced experience when the guy next to me is getting the same seat for $99. And who cares coach versus first meals. It's all the same microwaved crap. Unless it's like cereal or the chicken sandwich on CO, I don't eat it at all.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
What about those of us whose company spent tens of thousands of dollars on Y travel with the airline. Are we not entitled to an upgrade? We also "paid good money". After all, we keep the airline in business just as much as you. If the airline wants to give me the upgrade, that's fine.

Yes your company pays good money for you to sit in coach. You get what you pay for, or what they pay for in this case.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
I've seen Mr Greasy hands in F, J and Y class sitting there quietly. I've also seen Mr Decent Dresser behave like a drunken a-hole. The latter occurs far more often than the former.

I disagree. I'm not saying Mr. Greasy doesn't end up in F next to the drunk prick. But at least the drunk has a collared shirt on versus the drunk in coach with his NASCAR tank top and back hair hanging out.


User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6832 times:

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
The days of flying first class because of status are coming to an end. When I buy first class, I expect other first class people around me. I expect the others to be dressed in a decent manner. I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field. I think people pay good money to be there and yes it pisses me off when someone can get up there for a much cheaper rate!

But J & C class tickets don't always promise good manners and clean hands either, I've noticed...


User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2017 posts, RR: 23
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6782 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 6):
I don't want a mechanic with grease on his hands flying back home from a job in the oil field

What a pompous and elitist post. Some contract oil workers make huge salaries, and can easily afford a First Class fare. If you don't like it, there's always private/fractional jet ownership to insulate you and your darling wife from the great unwashed masses.



It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
25 Adriaticus : Oh, knock the elitist BS off... Fact is, 99% of F and J pax did not pay their tickets out of their own pockets... Why all this snobbish rubbish? If y
26 Tootallsd : When I pay for a coach ticket and upgrade with mileage, I feel that I have made an economic transaction with the airline that is equivalent to a fullf
27 Asuflyer05 : I think you took his post literally. For the most part there is a difference in the class of people who fly first versus coach. And I believe what XJ
28 Georgebush : You remind me of Rose's Mom in the movie Titanic.
29 Asuflyer05 : What's the problem with being elitist? I don't care how you paid for the ticket, or who paid for it, my point is it degrades the product when you hav
30 American762 : Beautifully said. I agree entirely. The only gripe I have is dress code. I would appreciate if the guy next to me in F or J wasn't wearing a tank top
31 Bennett123 : Something I have always wondered is why the curtains between classes are closed at meal time. Is it that Business/First all get champagne/Caviar or is
32 Starlionblue : The airlines decide on upgrade policies. Am I supposed to decline upgrades offered to me because I feel I didn't deserve them? If the airline feels t
33 ORDagent : If you keep on giving away a product it dilutes the value and makes it harder to sell pure and simple. Why pay for a premium cabin if as I have a chan
34 Bennett123 : You are talking about the chance of a free upgrade. You could try it several times and no upgrade. At what point do you decide that the benefits are w
35 Asuflyer05 : Maybe the OP and I failed to articulate well enough in our posts, because clearly everyone has missed some key points we made.
36 XJETFlyer : I think some on here are not getting my point! It's not about being better than someone else. The airlines have screwed the people willing to pay for
37 Post contains images Lightsaber : The #1 complaint I hear from my traveling is the lack of availability of J seats. To India Asia. Especially Japan and China. So this issue cannot be t
38 Falstaff : Some mechanics make great money. If he paid the fare, The airline isn't going to turn him away. I once sat next to a man in F on TWA STL-YYZ and he h
39 Theoden : I saw NW do this recently, but there were only a couple of seats available in C and it was oversold in Y by 30. Two C seats went to non-revs and one
40 Mirrodie : As said, it's rare for the airline to leave pax behind rather than fill the seat. That has been covered. True. It's hte wrong message to send. BUt di
41 Starlionblue : True, but if you are top tier with, say, AA, your chances of a domestic upgrade are north of 80% in my guesstimation. The exception being last minute
42 XJETFlyer : Once again, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST MECHANICS! I was using it as example. Hell it could be anyone sitting next to you.
43 Ikramerica : To prevent people from walking through to use the front toilet during meal service, mostly. I bet the F/As love you and your attitude. Just a clue, n
44 Post contains images Captaink : Hello you... Need to start considering buying that Gulfstream.. When I worked in the airlines, many flights left without first being full. Many times
45 Post contains images Sllevin : Trust me, I'm not that special. Lots of people pay for F/J travel out of pocket. I gave up travelling coach for all but fairly short hops a couple of
46 Jwenting : why? Because all those a.nutters who want to get a free ride in first class because their daddy works for "their airline".
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