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Why IB To BOS&IAD Instead Of DFW Or Second ORD?  
User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5074 times:

I've been flying from MAD to US midwest and west coast every other month over the last 2 years and most of the times have been impossible to find a seat in J on IB to ORD even booking 4 to 6 wks in advance. When I fly BA thru LHR to LAX, SFO, SEA, DTW, IAH or ORD always meet other people flying out of MAD or BCN complaining about how limted IB network is in the US.

So I'm wondering if it would be feasible for IB to start a second daily to ORD (gateway to around 30 US states and most of Canada) or new daily to LAX or DFW. I know DFW failed in the past but a lot of things have changed since then........

BTW, my opinion is that new IB flights to BOS and IAD doesn't make much sense since OW connections (AA) are very limited.

UPPERDECKFAN

P.S: my first post


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43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2910 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5042 times:

Welcome to A.net!!!  Smile

AA and IB have asked for anti-trust immunity, so moving forward I would say DFW-MAD could be quite possible. I also think a second MIA-MAD, and/or both JFK-MAD and ORD-MAD on AA metal would be a natural next step (I also think MIA-BCN would be good). Perhaps LAX at some point although I think the market is quite thin and not very high yielding.


User currently offlineIberiaA319 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 574 posts, RR: 38
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5011 times:

Welcome to a.net!

Iberia had plans to expand in the US for some time and made the research and the feasibility studies. Flights have a load factor of around 85 %.

Reasons for IAD according to IB: "The new route is intended to meet the growing demand for flights to the US capital of official bodies in the United States, Spain and other countries of Southern Europe; of technology companies with activities in Washington or in neighbouring Maryland and Virginia; of American and Spanish university students in foreign study programmes; and members of Washington, DC’s large Spanish community.

In addition, the direct Madrid-Washington flights will be an excellent option for travellers to and from the neighbouring cities of Baltimore and Philadelphia."

For BOS: "The airline is scheduling this new flight to provide the most convenient connections to European capitals such as London, Paris, Frankfurt or Rome, and also with Spanish cities like Barcelona, Malaga, Bilbao and Valencia."

Anyway, as rumoured we might see more North American destinations in the future (if enough aircrafts are available).


User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4983 times:

I too hope IB returns to LAX soon. I would think if EI or LX could make LAX work, IB would be able to as well (maybe 3x/week or something like that).

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32567 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4967 times:

The O'Hare flight might be full, but it loses money. It has never been a good performer for Iberia.


a.
User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4868 times:

Don't get me wrong MAH4546 but it's very hard to believe MAD-ORD is a money loser for IB when everytime I've flown it in the last 2 years there were no empty J seats and the other times I've had to fly thru somewhere else because J were not available.

Just an opinion based on the feeling of someone who is just a frequent flyer not involved on the airlines business



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4842 times:

Many years ago, AA tried flying DFW-MAD. It was unsuccessful, so it was switched to MIA-MAD, which IIRC has become a cash cow. IB knows this is a low-yield route, so until such time as the market warrants, IB will leave it be. My guess would be that if the market ever grew, it would be IB that flew it - AA would probably want to keep its long-haul fleet to routes that it knows would make it the most money. IB could contract with AA for a lot of the work and keep their staff to a minimum, and maybe not fly every single day. Possible, but not right now.

On the other hand, IB has discovered that their is sufficient O&D traffic for Madrid to both Boston and Washington, DC. In this case, it is a Spanish market for those two cities, not Boston and DC suddenly springing dozens of loyal IB FF-ers. Kind of like AA starting LGA-MSP - not for Minnesotans (and when we here see MSP, we immediately think "red tails"), but for New Yorkers.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineMIASkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1342 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4731 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 1):
I also think a second MIA-MAD

Iberia flies 10 weekly flights in between MIA-MAD (both 343), Double Daily on W, F & SUN. In addition to AA's Daily MIA-MAD on 763; that's 17 weekly flights in between both and their is code-share.



Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32567 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4664 times:

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 5):
Don't get me wrong MAH4546 but it's very hard to believe MAD-ORD is a money loser for IB when everytime I've flown it in the last 2 years there were no empty J seats and the other times I've had to fly thru somewhere else because J were not available.

I'm not doubting you, but that doesn't mean the flight makes money. Many passengers might be upgrades or traveling on AA points. The flight has never performed well.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
IB has discovered that their is sufficient O&D traffic for Madrid to both Boston and Washington, DC.

The majority of the traffic is connecting. That is what they are going for.



a.
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4608 times:

All I can say is that Star Alliance needs a flight to Spain and/or Portugal from IAD. I can't believe United/TAP/Spanair is going to give this market on a silver platter to OneWorld.

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7478 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4606 times:

Ive wondered why DFW isnt on the radar for either AA or IB. DFW has grown a bit recently and with the demise of DFW-ZRH, I think that makes room for one more player in the DFW-Europe. I think MAD or BRU would be a wise move. DFW has gained alot more connecting flights and the local economy has grown substanitally since either route has been flown from DFW. The market has changed and I think one of the two (MAD or BRU) could work given codeshare opprotunities on both ends.

Im not sure about the profitability of ORD-MAD on IB. I know the loads are very good, but as MAH points out, it doesnt always equal profitability.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4584 times:

UPPERDECKFAN ...welcome to A.net.. Smile

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 1):
AA and IB have asked for anti-trust immunity, so moving forward I would say DFW-MAD could be quite possible. I also think a second MIA-MAD, and/or both JFK-MAD and ORD-MAD on AA metal would be a natural next step (I also think MIA-BCN would be good). Perhaps LAX at some point although I think the market is quite thin and not very high yielding.

..would love to see them come to SFO too.. yes 

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
I'm not doubting you, but that doesn't mean the flight makes money. Many passengers might be upgrades or traveling on AA points. The flight has never performed well.

Mark, that's interesting because I always see IB upgrading to an A346 during the summer season..I would assume that loads and yields would be decent enough to take one of their A346's and put it for their ORD flight..




"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineFlight209 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4570 times:

Isn't BOS a focus city (though not a hub) for AA? If so, then couldn't the combination of that and BOS's O&D numbers help IB succeed with MAD-BOS service?


I may question your opinion, but I'll never question your right to it.
User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4562 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):
Mark, that's interesting because I always see IB upgrading to an A346 during the summer season..I would assume that loads and yields would be decent enough to take one of their A346's and put it for their ORD flight..

No, not always. IB juggles their A340s around a lot. The A340-300 have been substituted at short noticed by its bigger brother on most IB long-hauls. These are for seasonal adjustments or weekend flights when demand is significantly higher
I fly the route very often, and have seen the equipment switched to the smaller -300 unexpectedly several times.

The thing that is superb about the ORD-MAD flight is the ease of connection it offers for connection passengers at O'Hare. One doesn't need to take the train to Terminal 5, and pass thru security again.

And IB's significantly improved Business Class!! (Business Plus)


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32567 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4523 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):

Mark, that's interesting because I always see IB upgrading to an A346 during the summer season..I would assume that loads and yields would be decent enough to take one of their A346's and put it for their ORD flight..

Yes, it is always filled, because they have no problems filling the flight. It still loses money annually. June/July/August are probably a bright spot, and it may even make money during those months, but the flight is a money loser over the span of the year.

Quoting Flight209 (Reply 12):
Isn't BOS a focus city (though not a hub) for AA?

A dying one.

Quoting Flight209 (Reply 12):
If so, then couldn't the combination of that and BOS's O&D numbers help IB succeed with MAD-BOS service?

Boston doesn't offer anything that JFK, ORD, MIA, or SJU don't. The flight was to capture O&D between Boston and Europe. There really isn't much O&D to Madrid, but there is a huge amount to Europe, and Iberia is planning on capitalizing on that. Early results are pretty decent, yield is less than stellar, but you can't really judge a new route until after a year.



a.
User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4472 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
I'm not doubting you, but that doesn't mean the flight makes money. Many passengers might be upgrades or traveling on AA points. The flight has never performed well

If IB really loses money anually just like you say, they had already stopped the MAD-ORD-MAD services. It's pretty obvious that IB will fly not only to make a favour to AA.



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32567 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 15):
If IB really loses money anually just like you say, they had already stopped the MAD-ORD-MAD services. It's pretty obvious that IB will fly not only to make a favour to AA.

That isn't how airlines work. If every route made money, then airlines would never discontinue services. Just because Iberia's O'Hare route loses money annually, which it has for the past seven years, does not mean they will discontinue it. Iberia's pressence in Chicago is still important, as Iberia is a oneWorld member, and the Chicago route can contribute positively to connecting routes.

Look at British Airways in Houston. They fly a daily Houston-Heathrow flight via Detroit. That flight doesn't make a dime, but it is important because it contributes a significant amount of premium traffic to BA's African network, especially to Lagos and Luanada.



a.
User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4327 times:

I agree that not every route that loose money is stopped right away, there are always strategic considerations that are taken into account, however, specifically on MAD-ORD-MAD route, I don't believe that consistently filling between 40J (A343) and 60 J (A346) seats daily can be based mainly on upgrades or AA miles.

The concept of F/J passengers being the base of airline profit has been said thousand of times in this forum, so I can conclude in IB MAD-ORD-ORD this fact is no longer valid.

Really a surprise IB can't make money on the only non stop flight between its main hub and one of the main hubs of its OW partner AA while being the only non-stop flight from Spain going beyond the US east coast, and giving the fact ORD is the gateway to most of the US and CA (i.e. midwest, mountain zone and west coast).



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4250 times:

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Thread starter):
BTW, my opinion is that new IB flights to BOS and IAD doesn't make much sense since OW connections (AA) are very limited.

AA is the second largest carrier at Boston. Second only to DL by a very small margin.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
On the other hand, IB has discovered that their is sufficient O&D traffic for Madrid to both Boston

There's very little O&D between BOS and MAD. The great majority of the traffic is connecting traffic. BOS is a huge market for Europe and IB is taking advantage of it by connecting passengers through their MAD hub.


User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4162 times:

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Thread starter):
Why IB To BOS&IAD Instead Of DFW Or Second ORD?

1. According the commercial director, Boston was opened because Iberia identified an unserved business demand from MAD to Massachusetts. Apparently, the Spanish firms related to concessions and public works are opening new subsidiaries there (ACS, FCC, Ferrovial, etc.), so they remarked that BOS could be a good market for the Business Plus product. (High loads in Business is one key factor that makes Iberia decide to run or not a flight, according Mr. Conte.)

2. As others said, Iberia is reorienting their product towards an intercontinental and domestic-from-its-hub carrier, leaving the point to point business to their subsidiary Clickair. Consequently, a growth is expected in the US. Some hours ago, Iberia said that they are expecting the new AA-IB agreement to be initiated at the very beginning of 2008 (january). This implies that IB and AA will share profits in each US - Spain flight operated by any of them, so expect AA or IB to open new routes (the West Coast was mentioned) in some months.

A question to all of us: does anybody is aware of AA & IB intentions? I mean, yesterday Iberia said very ambiguously that they wanted to fly domestic US flights with their own metal from cities such as NYC and / or BOS, and / or ORD, etc. to California, since direct flights still don't have enough demand. However, the US - EU open skies agreement does not allow European Airlines to do that. Consequently, they are studying with AA a legal formula to skip this barrier, and a solution could be having domestic flights operated by IB, but only marketed as AA flights (not a problem, since both airlines would be sharing profits). I wonder if this could be possible.


User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4100 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Boston doesn't offer anything that JFK, ORD, MIA, or SJU don't. The flight was to capture O&D between Boston and Europe. There really isn't much O&D to Madrid, but there is a huge amount to Europe, and Iberia is planning on capitalizing on that. Early results are pretty decent, yield is less than stellar, but you can't really judge a new route until after a year.

In the Globe it was mentioned that the early results for the route are good. IB

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 18):
AA is the second largest carrier at Boston. Second only to DL by a very small margin.

AA carries the most passengers out of BOS. As it has been mentioned, AA has cut back on service quite a bit. SJC, AUS, RIC, FLL, PBI, SNN, SEA, LAS, YUL, MSY all come to mind. However, other airlines have stepped in and picked up the slack, such as B6, AS, and FL. AA does dominate BOS to the West Cost however.

Quoting Flight209 (Reply 12):
Isn't BOS a focus city (though not a hub) for AA? If so, then couldn't the combination of that and BOS's O&D numbers help IB succeed with MAD-BOS service?

Not really, I am sure AA would rather funnel pax through their transit hubs at ORD and DFW. BOS offers no connections that those cities don't. AA does not have that large of a network other than their hubs anymore, aside from some California routes, but those run on pure O&D.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4053 times:

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 13):
No, not always. IB juggles their A340s around a lot. The A340-300 have been substituted at short noticed by its bigger brother on most IB long-hauls. These are for seasonal adjustments or weekend flights when demand is significantly higher
I fly the route very often, and have seen the equipment switched to the smaller -300 unexpectedly several times.

The thing that is superb about the ORD-MAD flight is the ease of connection it offers for connection passengers at O'Hare. One doesn't need to take the train to Terminal 5, and pass thru security again.

And IB's significantly improved Business Class!! (Business Plus)

...yes, I know they switch between the A343 and A346 during the summer..I should have been a bit more clear...... Smile

my bad...

.....as you can tell, I took that photo from ORD Terminal 3.... Wink

..in fact, the AA B772ER I was on  biggrin  was taken from IB's Terminal-3 Gate, but because of the size of the A346, it can't park at its usual location, especially if there are other AA birds around (which there always are)....

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):

Mark, that's interesting because I always see IB upgrading to an A346 during the summer season..I would assume that loads and yields would be decent enough to take one of their A346's and put it for their ORD flight..

Yes, it is always filled, because they have no problems filling the flight. It still loses money annually. June/July/August are probably a bright spot, and it may even make money during those months, but the flight is a money loser over the span of the year.

...interesting  scratchchin ....I would have thought it was a good money maker for IB...regardless, I'm glad to see them there... Smile



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32567 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4007 times:

Quoting B752OS (Reply 20):

In the Globe it was mentioned that the early results for the route are good. IB

Loads are good, yields aren't. Though that is expected for a new route. It will improve, most likely.



a.
User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3942 times:

Mark, Im my best knowledge IB is making money with all 3 traditional US destinations --ORD, JFK amd MIA--

Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 19):
This implies that IB and AA will share profits in each US - Spain flight operated by any of them, so expect AA or IB to open new routes (the West Coast was mentioned) in some months.

That's another valid point to take into account.

@ Jacobin: interesting ORD picture ...as usual  Smile



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineBOAC911 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3931 times:

How is IB's Madrid-San Juan doing?

25 MAH4546 : O'Hare as not been profitable since 2000, that I know for a fact. Between 2002 and 2004, the route was performing horribly. It does much better now,
26 BOAC911 : Correct, I flew this route round-trip in April of 2002, and the plane had a load factor of 15 perhaps 20 percent. But so were lots of other planes...
27 RwSEA : DFW just isn't a good connecting point for most services to Europe. Texas, New Mexico, and Oklahoma are really the only decent sources of feed, and D
28 LAXdude1023 : Youre forgetting that the West Coast and Latin America. If its logical to fly LAX/SFO-ATL-MAD, why wouldnt it be logical to fly SFO/LAX-DFW-MAD? Ther
29 Post contains images Jacobin777 : LoL...thanks, hopefully I'll more put up soon....
30 Flight209 : Jacobin777, for some reason, I don't see your pic(s) in this thread, even when I'm "checked in". Am I supposed to see the shot(s) in this thread, and
31 RwSEA : Right, they just as easily could go through DFW instead of ORD or ATL. But is there really that much traffic between the US and Spain - I think that'
32 BOAC911 : That's not the question. IBERIA now has a first-rate terminal in Madrid, and offers plenty of connections to N. Europe and the Mediterranean. The que
33 COERJ145 : O RLY? AA BOS-LAX 3X daily BOS-SFO 2X daily BOS-SAN 1X daily 1128 seats daily-all on 757s UA BOS-LAX 2-3X daily BOS-SFO 5X daily 1456 seats daily-all
34 Post contains links Airbazar : Not according to official numbers. According to DOT numbers, over the last year (Mar 06 - Feb 07), AA carried 3,353,000 passengers out of BOS vs. 3,4
35 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Hi Flight209, sometimes the photo web page exceeds its bandwidth, so the photo is no longer up..but I still see it there, in this case, it could be y
36 Post contains images StationManager : Yeah , you went straight to the point, Portugal, Italy, France, Greece, Israel, etc, MAD is working as focus city or entrance of BOS traffic to south
37 Cubsrule : BOS may also help to improve yields some on the ORD and MIA flights, particularly if IB and AA get ATI. AA will often sell cheap tickets ORD-RDU-LGW,
38 B752OS : How is ATL a better connecting hub than DFW? Considering IB is a One World partner, DFW would be a much better connecting airport than ATL. So what i
39 MAH4546 : What is there to laugh about? I know, for a fact, that the flight is not profitable. You don't have to believe me, that's fine. It was not profitable
40 SKY1 : Mark, I agree with you in the beginning, ORD was not a profitable route but it was time ago. Both, Station Manager and myself know pretty well how IB
41 MAH4546 : Yes, I was, and I am still skeptical that Iberia will be flying to both come October 2008. I believe only one of the two will remain by then. Obvious
42 SKY1 : ...anyhow there is a fact like StationManager said before on the reply 36: The flight is always overbooked and the ocupation is very high in Business
43 MAH4546 : No, they aren't. A quick check at the flightsavailbility shows open seats on IB's O'Hare-Madrid throughout next week in both classes. In addition, a
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