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Confirmed: LH To Fly FRA-EZE Nonstop Again.  
User currently offlineSQ773 From Spain, joined Apr 2005, 209 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11428 times:

Just a rumour, but seems to be very likely.

LH will start flying non stop to EZE from October 5 days a week. The other 2 days via GRU. At the moment no specification of which days of the week it will be.

As from April 2008, the flight will go daily ( non stop. )

The FRA - EZE flight will probably be a daylight flight, whereas the return flight would depart EZE at 21.00 hrs aprox.

That is good news for both EZE and for GRU . Seems to be that despite the increase of capacity ex GRU with the MUC flight, it is still not enough for the brazil- german market .

As for EZE, needless to say anything...IMO it was not a wise movement to make this flight stop at GRU.

Cheers

SQ773

115 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1066 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11413 times:

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
Seems to be that despite the increase of capacity ex GRU with the MUC flight, it is still not enough for the brazil- german market .

Indeed. GIG is still left outside of the network.

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
IMO it was not a wise movement to make this flight stop at GRU.

True. The old FRA-EZE-SCL flight had great loads and the GRU stop made pax look elsewhere for their flights to Europe and beyond.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11384 times:

LH must be planning something for SA. I heard earlier, that BOG will come back and that GIG and LIM will be adds to the CCS/GRU flights. Now with the rumor that EZE will be Non-Stop again, the FRA-GRU flights can be extended to GIG 5 times a week. I read somewhere here that the MUC-GRU will stay daylight, so they cannot use it for GIG.
Let´s wait if these are just rumours.



NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11321 times:

If this rumor is true, I wonder if LH will resume flights to SCL with its own aircraft. In the past, LH nonstop flights to EZE continued to SCL. Will these new nonstop flights terminate in EZE?

Quoting LH506 (Reply 2):
the FRA-GRU flights can be extended to GIG

Isn't there enough demand for LH to offer nonstop FRA-GIG flights? RG flies nonstop from FRA to GIG with 767s. LH could offer better service on larger aircraft.


User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1066 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11289 times:

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
I wonder if LH will resume flights to SCL with its own aircraft. In the past, LH nonstop flights to EZE continued to SCL. Will these new nonstop flights terminate in EZE?

Guess that LH is satisfied with the SCL operations (flown by parter airline LX via GRU)

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
Isn't there enough demand for LH to offer nonstop FRA-GIG flights?

Yes

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
RG flies nonstop from FRA to GIG with 767s. LH could offer better service on larger aircraft.

Actually RG's nonstop to FRA will begin next friday (June 16th). LH could offer a better service on larger aircraft and a better timing also. The FRA-GIG's leg departure time is awful, it's schedules to leave FRA at 0630LT IIRC arriving at GIG at 1430LT (IIRC again) which is not good for connections in each one of the ends of the route.
And the Brazil - Europe market is booming these days and the GIG - Europe market is severely underserved so LH could profit from this situation.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2381 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11279 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

 highfive  YES, bring back the old LH526 flight!

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
The FRA - EZE flight will probably be a daylight flight

DAYLIGHT? LH526 wasa pure night flight departing FRA in the evening and arriving in EZE in the morning ... why make it a Daylight flight? Utter BS in my oppinion!

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
As for EZE, needless to say anything...IMO it was not a wise movement to make this flight stop at
GRU.

Right!! Nuff said!

Mario
LH526



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineDALCA From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11238 times:

LH going non-stop to EZE would be great on all behalfs, i don't see it ging as a daylight flight as the early morning arrival is very welcome. Going onwards to SCL would also be very welcome. Good chances it would be a A340-600 like the LH526 was to SCL.
FRA-GIG has not been discussed as fas as I know and won't be back for a while. With LH having signed the deal with TAM i think all pax will be routed via GRI and then onwards on TAM to GIG and other destinations.



Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
User currently offlineArgento From Argentina, joined Feb 2000, 230 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11114 times:

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
The FRA - EZE flight will probably be a daylight flight, whereas the return flight would depart EZE at 21.00 hrs approx.

Old LH 526 schedule was perfect for business travelers , departing FRA at 22 arriving EZE around 8 am , and going back to FRA around 16 30 arriving FRA at 10 am . That made possible to take any kind of connection thru Europe and Asia (sometimes with star partners) that left FRA around 13 or 14 hr.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4517 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 11056 times:

Quoting LH526 (Reply 5):
DAYLIGHT? LH526 wasa pure night flight departing FRA in the evening and arriving in EZE in the morning ... why make it a Daylight flight?

No to have the aircraft sit in EZE for the better part of the day in case LH decides not to bring back the SCL tag and make the flight an EZE terminator. KLM has been studying the introduction of a similar flight to EZE. A 10am Europe departure would result in something like a 2-3pm arrival, good enough to make almost complete Europe connectivity possible. If IB can make such a daylight operation work, then why would LH not be able to do the same?


User currently offlineDALCA From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 11013 times:

LH relies a lot on transfer passangers from all over the LH network for this flight and IMHO a late night departure is the best suited for this.


Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10864 times:

Quoting DALCA (Reply 9):
LH relies a lot on transfer passangers from all over the LH network for this flight and IMHO a late night departure is the best suited for this.

If LH wants to operate nonstop to EZE it has to be red-eye. I think that a daylight leg would be worse off than the stop in GRU.

Something is cooking in LH regarding South America. The recent agreements with TAM and TACA point towards a move back to the region which LH has been neglecting over recent years, except for GRU where LH-LX continues to have a firm grip.

Brazil-Germany market will have a shake up and LH needs to react. RG will introduce its second daily FRA flights, now GIG-FRA, while TAM is awaiting negotiations in the agreement to start its own flight.

Rgs,


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10777 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Should be good news for EZE and Germany and seems that LH learn the lesson... cannot handle markets like EZE with stops! AF use to say thank you LH for this  Smile

Quoting DALCA (Reply 6):
FRA-GIG has not been discussed as fas as I know and won't be back for a while. With LH having signed the deal with TAM i think all pax will be routed via GRI and then onwards on TAM to GIG and other destinations.

So it will stay the same, pax will keep using AF, IB, UX, TP services as it's really better to do a connection in Europe.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
Isn't there enough demand for LH to offer nonstop FRA-GIG flights? RG flies nonstop from FRA to GIG with 767s. LH could offer better service on larger aircraft.

For your info, the GIG-FRA RG flight was launched a couple weeks ago for " immediate " begin on June 16. Be aware that the June 17 and June 18 GIG-FRA flights (sunday & monday), departing Rio at 12:05 PM keep 0C and 1C available. And again 2 weeks being sold...
You can find seats on C for the night flight...

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineRJ_Delta From Chile, joined Oct 2000, 1945 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10732 times:

Well I hope if this romours is true that Lufthansa return to SCL via EZE. Although LH is satisfied with the SCL operations with LX, a lot of people want that LH returns to offer direct flight to Germany. Most people preferred others carriers as Air France, Iberia or LAN to more direct to Europe from SCL.

User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8517 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10618 times:
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It would make sense for LH to fly nonstop to Argentina, again, since the economy their has recovered. Why they didn't go nonstop with a A340 I never understood.

User currently offlineS.p.a.s. From Liechtenstein, joined Mar 2001, 967 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10596 times:

I have it from a very reliable source (inside DLH) that indeed they will operated FRA-EZE non-stop next winter (northern hemisphere)

Operating times to be confirmed, though

RS



"ad astra per aspera"
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4517 posts, RR: 72
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10516 times:

Quoting DALCA (Reply 9):
LH relies a lot on transfer passangers from all over the LH network for this flight and IMHO a late night departure is the best suited for this.



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 10):
If LH wants to operate nonstop to EZE it has to be red-eye. I think that a daylight leg would be worse off than the stop in GRU.

I don't buy the argument that there wouldn't be enough feed for a 10am FRA departure as compared to a 10pm FRA departure. At 10am, which is incidentally LH's first intercontinental departure wave of the day, which carries traffic to virtually every corner of the world, there is connectivity from most if not all over Europe, so the argument that connectivity would be better at 10pm is flawed in so many respects.

What may be the case, indeed, is that a daylight operation may attract a passenger mix that is somewhat less premium configured than an overnight departure. Nevertheles, one of the problems of the previous nonstop FRA EZE service was the lack of premium passengers, even for the double overnight service, hence the downgrade of B744 to a 2-class A346. I wouldn't be surprised at all if LH again deploys the 2-class A346 and decides to pay off the lower yielding traffic with increased utilization, achieved by an immediate turn around.

Again, both KLM and Air France have been very successful in their daylight operations to South America, while Iberia has been operating a daylight MAD EZE rotation for as long as I can remember. KLM has also been studying the possibility of a nonstop AMS EZE flight, which would equally operate as a southbound daylight sector.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 10403 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
What may be the case, indeed, is that a daylight operation may attract a passenger mix that is somewhat less premium configured than an overnight departure.

This is my pointt, while I agree with you regarding connectivity. What I said is that if LH wants to reinstate EZE nonstop it needs to be red-eye so as to compete with AF.

In my view LH could operate red-eye in EZE and increase the utilisation factor of the aircraft by adoption the old route FRA-EZE-SCL. This would also mean a capacity increase of LX in GRU since the flight would terminate there - and in this sense I would think that LX could rotate operating ZRH-GRU-GIG. LH B747 FRA-GRU (without the EZE leg could continue to GIG). However, if LH-LX decide to operate in GIG via GRU again it will not offer adequate competition to AF's two daily nonstop flights.

LH/LX once and for all need to decide whether they want to invest in South America or not. Given the current market configuration this means at least EZE and GIG nonstop and red-eye. Nothing less than that will mean LH is not competitive and it will fail in the region as in the past. LH also needs a new destination and in my view LIM is in the cards.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
Again, both KLM and Air France have been very successful in their daylight operations to South America

Only in markets with 1) limited competition or considerable low-yield traffic, i.e. LIM; 2) bulk traffic both high and low yield, i.e. GRU, GIG.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
KLM has also been studying the possibility of a nonstop AMS EZE flight, which would equally operate as a southbound daylight sector

I dont think KL will go back to EZE. I dont see in EZE a market which would allow for dual operations AF-KL. I think AF will keep its single daily flight upgrading to bigger equipment. In future (2008) EZE will get AF second flight. I think we can expect KL to open REC with A330.

Rgs,


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4517 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10366 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
In my view LH could operate red-eye in EZE and increase the utilisation factor of the aircraft by adoption the old route FRA-EZE-SCL.

The problem with that setup seems to be that it has failed for LH in the past. Is the current market situation so much different from when LH flew this routing not so long ago? Other than that the one-stop EZE model has likely failed even more miserably, I don't see too much difference. As such, I think LH's reasoning is to give the EZE station another shot at a nonstop flight, while trying to improve the financial performance by doing away with the expensive tag, which involves a crew change and 2 extra cycles, and reinforcing utilization rates for the aircraft involved.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
Only in markets with 1) limited competition or considerable low-yield traffic

I think Europe-Argentina fits that description. Premium demand between Europe and Buenos Aires is not what it is often cracked up to be, which is incidentally one of the reasons BA let go of its nonstop EZE flights a couple of years go. Even AF is having trouble filling up the front cabins and is often doing so by overbooking the back of the truck. EZE is among the AF stations with the highest opup rates in the system. At AF, GRU far outperforms EZE in terms of premium demand. So, indeed, I do believe that EZE is actually lower yielding than many believe.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
I dont think KL will go back to EZE. I dont see in EZE a market which would allow for dual operations AF-KL. I think AF will keep its single daily flight upgrading to bigger equipment. In future (2008) EZE will get AF second flight.

AF had planned a capacity upgrade to B77W for CDG EZE starting next winter, but has since withdrawn that plan. The flight will just operate as a daily terminator with B772ER. There also seem to be problems pertaining to the BASA in terms of additional frequencies on this route for AF. Apparently, AF is, at least right now precluded from adding Argentina frequencies, which is one of the reasons KLM, which still holds Argentina route authority, looked into the possibility of adding AMS EZE.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4070 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9225 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
For your info, the GIG-FRA RG flight was launched a couple weeks ago for " immediate " begin on June 16. Be aware that the June 17 and June 18 GIG-FRA flights (sunday & monday), departing Rio at 12:05 PM keep 0C and 1C available. And again 2 weeks being sold...
You can find seats on C for the night flight...

That info is not enough to conclude the flight is a success or that a single ticket in C was sold. It could have been that Varig upgraded or distributed C tickets to executives, members of the midia, government officials, etc for the few days of operation.
I looked through the business class availability of that flight over the month of July and it is just very odd. There is plenty of availability for 2 or 3 days every week, and nothing in the other days. Not exactly the pattern of an airline selling business class tickets. My conclusion is that the lack of availability does not correspond to sales of tickets in that cabin at all.



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User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9074 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 17):
The problem with that setup seems to be that it has failed for LH in the past.



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 17):
I think LH's reasoning is to give the EZE station another shot at a nonstop flight, while trying to improve the financial performance by doing away with the expensive tag, which involves a crew change and 2 extra cycles, and reinforcing utilization rates for the aircraft involved.

I insist that if LH wants to give another try to EZE it needs to serve the destination in a way which is competitive: red-eye and nonstop flight. I agree regarding SCL, which should not be added to EZE as a leg as it increases the operational cost of the flight. However, the situation is the market, different from what you mentioned, is very different. Argentina has emerged from a major crisis and now has much healtheir economy also reflected in its air traffic.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 17):
Even AF is having trouble filling up the front cabins and is often doing so by overbooking the back of the truck. EZE is among the AF stations with the highest opup rates in the system. At AF, GRU far outperforms EZE in terms of premium demand. So, indeed, I do believe that EZE is actually lower yielding than many believe.

AF could handle the situation in EZE by simply introducing the B747. I think EZE would be a perfect fir for AF's 2-class B747 or perhaps the 2-class B77W.

The situation you described above was evident in the flight I took last month BA's EZE-GRU in C. EZE departure: the F cabin had zero pax, C had 2 pax in the upper deck and 2 in lower deck, while the Y had load of about 40%-30%. Note: F and C departed from GRU with 95% load.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 17):
Apparently, AF is, at least right now precluded from adding Argentina frequencies, which is one of the reasons KLM, which still holds Argentina route authority, looked into the possibility of adding AMS EZE.

I dont think KLM will fly back to EZE. The matter of the bilateral could be handled through negotiations. And a change for a bigger capacity aircraft under AF single daily flights will cope with demand. Also taking into account that it seems apparent that both LH and BA are considering EZE as future nonstop destinations.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 18):
That info is not enough to conclude the flight is a success or that a single ticket in C was sold. It could have been that Varig upgraded or distributed C tickets to executives, members of the midia, government officials, etc for the few days of operation.

I know RG is giving free tickets as "favours" because it needs the support of the Government...also many officials from Rio's local Gvernment got free tickets in C...This is common practice when airlines start new routes, so no problem.

In addition: June-July is extremely busy period for Europe-Brazil routes with most flights already fully booked so RG somehow must be capitalising on the busy holiday period - this was one of the reasons for the flight to start now in June.
Let's see how the flight develops after August, especially with the horrible timetable...

Rgs,


User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9055 times:

I believe that with the recent MOUs signed with TAM and TACA, and their iminent recruitment into the Star Alliance, we should start seeing a lot of activity by LH with regards to its South American network.

I don't believe that LH backed away from South America for any other reason beside shortage of metal, and that their aircraft were better off deployed on more revenue generating routes... and this argument is not to be confused as if I'm implying that Latin American routes are not profitable - far from it!

I believe over the next few years, Rio de Janeiro, Bogota and Lima would be re-introduced... as would San José de Costa Rica. I also see present Latin American stations served by more direct routes therefore seeing a capacity increase - and this especially considering all the new aircraft LH is scheduled to be receiving soon. I think (or maybe just hope) that in 5 years time the LH/LX network may look something like this:

SOUTHERN LATIN AMERICA:
LH: A388 FRA - GRU
LH: A346 FRA - GIG - SCL
LH: A343 FRA - EZE
LH: A346 MUC - GRU
LX: A343 ZRH - GRU
* Additional Brazil - Germany flights operated in cooperation with TAM using TAM aircraft.

- Sao Paulo: Would see capacity increase through a larger aircraft from Frankfurt (B744 to A380) and Munich (A343 to A346), a terminating flight from Frankfurt (cancellation of Buenos Aires tag), and a terminating flight from Zurich (cancelation of the SCL tag). In other words, all GRU flights by LH and LX become dedicated to GRU and some would see an aircraft upgrade.
- Rio de Janeiro: New route on the network
- Buenos Aires: Would see capacity increase through a dedicated flight (cancellation of the GRU stop)
- Santiago de Chile: Would see capacity increase through a larger aircraft (A343 to A346). The flight would originate from Frankfurt and not Zurich (transfer from LX to LH network), and would now stop in GIG instead of EZE.

NORTHERN LATIN AMERICA:
LH: A388 FRA - MEX
LH: A343 MUC - MEX
LX: A343 ZRH - MEX
LH: A346 FRA - CCS
LH: A343 FRA - BOG
LH: A343 FRA - LIM

I was initially temped to include Lima as a tag on to Bogota, or the latter as a tag on to San José, but any cooperation agreements with TACA would probably require direct flights to TACA's hubs in order to be efficient - therefore San José and Lima would have to be nonstop if not even dedicated flights.

Cheers


User currently offlineComeflywithme From Argentina, joined Sep 2006, 265 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9020 times:

I wish BA would follow LH and go non stop to EZE hopefully this LH decision might help them decide to follow.

A dayflight to EZE can be done no problem I flew IB from MAD at noon and it was a great flight getting into EZE at around 8pm.


User currently offlineRobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8875 times:

Quoting Qazar (Reply 20):

SOUTHERN LATIN AMERICA:
LH: A388 FRA - GRU

That's a very brave statement, but let's just keep our fingers crossed.
As what I understand is that LH FRA-GRU service is showing good load factors. It's certainly never showing up as the cheapest offer when looking for flights from FRA to GRU.

Rob


User currently offlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8803 times:

Quoting SQ773 (Thread starter):
It would make sense for LH to fly nonstop to Argentina, again, since the economy their has recovered. Why they didn't go nonstop with a A340 I never understood.

AF is using the 777ER. My question is, if the A343 is capable of going FRA-EZE with full payload? It used to be LHs longest non-stop flight, but never on a A343.

What is the range difference between a 777ER and an A343?



NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently offlineStylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 3025 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8793 times:




range of A340-300, B777-300ER, B777-200ER


25 Hardiwv : FRA-GRU B747 is one of LH's top performers - and you have to take into account that LH/LX operate in total 3 daily flights to GRU. One thing for sure
26 LH506 : is this with full load and headwinds etc. included?
27 DALCA : The LH flights to South America are top earners for LH, both passangerwise and cargowise. LH makes a lot of money off of the the cargo flown to South
28 HB-IWC : That's all nice and dandy, but that somewhat flies in the face of the cold shoulder that Lufthansa has given South America in the past couple of year
29 DALCA : LH didn't return to GIG when RG folded because there was no metal around for them to operate the flight with in the way that LH wanted. The LH operati
30 HB-IWC : That was exactly my point earlier. LH has over the past couple of season rightly or wrongly chosen to expand in other markets rather than in South Am
31 LipeGIG : Yes Hardi but be in mind that the plane continues to EZE and with a future FRA-EZE flight does not make sense also upgrade the plane for a single FRA
32 Qazar : But keep in mind that as KL and AF expanded in South America, LH wasn't sitting around twirling its thumbs... It was taking the lead in other parts o
33 HB-IWC : Quite obviously, Lufthansa has seen it fit to invest the majority of its available resources elsewhere, particularly in North America, India and Chin
34 Marambio : I agree with that statement. Lufthansa was a quite big player on the Argentina-Europe market before they downgraded the service with the GRU stop. No
35 Anetter123 : Just checked in Apollo for any possible nonstops into next year but they all still show a stop in GRU. I wonder how LH really does in EZE profit wise?
36 Incitatus : "No metal" is just a veiled explanation for "no potential". Every large airline has money losing routes. If LH thought there was any substantial chan
37 Argento : Another situation that change from 2001 is the almost disappearance of Star-alliance routes out of EZE to any other destinations like GRU(RG) or MIA-N
38 Hardiwv : Agree 100%, and in investment decision-making this is call opportunity cost. The only problem is that LH was wrong, as its South American operations
39 LipeGIG : No metal for LH could mean no profit, but it seems that they have hired the wrong demand study. I can't understand how AF can handle a plane with 433
40 Kiwiandrew : LH is not the only one . BA have consistently cut back their routes in Latin America SCL , BOG , CCS have all been dropped , EZE and GIG reduced to o
41 Comeflywithme : Can anyone based in down EZE way confirm if airport charges/landing fees have increased substantially over the last few years? Just asking as fares on
42 Post contains images LH498 : Hello everybody, this thread is turning quiet interesting and I want to suggest to focus to the whole of Latin America, including Mexico. LH has negle
43 Hardiwv : Not to mention that KL also operates daily AMS-MEX B747. I think LH-LX remains solid in GRU: LX recently increased GRU to daily. LH-LX keep 3 daily o
44 Incitatus : I never said LH was right, and as I have said in another thread: Airlines do make mistakes. Sometimes they make some very dumb mistakes. Sometimes th
45 Avianca : Felipe, but do not forget LatinAmerica is the natural market for UX, Asia a exotic market. shame about LH, never understood how they cut back, specia
46 Lan1981 : I think this depends on what each airline is expecting in terms of profit from a particular route...I can't speak for AF (or indeed any other airline
47 Avianca : several times the airport... I think all these changes were the problem for the route.... I am sure they could fill a daily 767-300 on a CCS-BOG rout
48 SQ773 : By that time, the second flight to MEX did not perform well , the passage load factors were most of the times below 60 %, specially on the leg MEX/FR
49 Post contains images LH498 : I didn't know that, thanks for clarifying. Makes sense as routes to the US were reinforced after the cancellation of the second flight. The reasons I
50 Hardiwv : Indeed, and AF has just revised its added 6 frequencies to GIG. Now AF will operate twice daily to GIG and use a bigger aircraft: in addition to the
51 Rafabozzolla : The situation for travel between Brazil and Europe has just reached ridiculous levels. Just Friday I was trying to book my sister a flight from GRU to
52 Hardiwv : All European carriers are doing money in Brazil, including LH. GRU is extremely profitable for LH, and this of course makes change more difficult. Bu
53 LipeGIG : Hardi, there is no way LH can obtain "extreme profit" in GRU. I'm sorry but i have to disagree and the future will confirm this. Felipe
54 Hardiwv : Lipe: I think you did not get my point. What I said is that LH is a profitable airline in its Brazilian operations in fact GRU is a money-machine for
55 DALCA : LH Cargo pulled out of MEX at that time because Cargolux took over half of the traffic which was on this flight. This was VW traffic and pretty much e
56 Hardiwv : Another point which gave LH a leverage in Brazil is that they accepted all holders of RG's FF card Smiles to switch to an equivalent status under LH's
57 Post contains images SQ773 : Hi Again ! Gooood News ! Well, it seems to be that it is confirmed that from november 2007 the flight to EZE will go non stop, 5 times a week. I have
58 Leskova : According to an eMail I got today, GRU and EZE will be served like this from 28 October till 29 March 2008: LH506 Daily FRA 21:45 - GRU 09:30 LH507 Da
59 Hardiwv : Fantastic news for EZE and GRU - EZE will get LH nonstop again, while GRU will get FRA dedicated operations! Now we wait wait for LH to release inform
60 LH506 : and for BOG and LIM. In Wikipedia, not very reliable I know, it says that FRA-BOG starts in November. Maybe after some of their new A346/330 arrive??
61 LHUSA : 744 with 80C
62 IAD380 : Surprisingly, LH does not plan to fly to EZE daily, especially during the South American summer. I also note that the southbound flight to EZE leaves
63 HB-IWC : Those are definitely UTC times, not local times. Surprising indeed that the flight is not going to be daily after all. The latest news that I had got
64 C010T3 : Actually, they did. There was a huge add from Star Alliance inviting all Smiles FF to join any Star Alliance FF programme.
65 Lan1981 : Interesting development! This means BA is now the only European airline not offering non-stop service to Europe from EZE...in the past, a non-stop fli
66 IAD380 : Good point! Except for IB and AZ, no European airlines faces competition to EZE. AR no longer flies to CDG, LGW, FRA, ZRH, or AMS. I would think that
67 Leskova : Sorry, forgot to mention that - yes, indeed, those are UTC times.
68 Hardiwv : Correct, and I restate my opinion that LH will remain "second-best": LH product will not be on par to compete with AF (daily 3-class red-eye). Are we
69 Post contains images AF086 : And GIG is still forgotten...AF's executives send their thanks.
70 Summa767 : AF has no reason to subsidise latin american routes. They just work. For IB, they are its heart and soul. I can understand that BA makes more money f
71 C010T3 : Yes, that's because they also advertised separately. TP only started advertising much later. The Smiles Status Match with M&M was such a huge success
72 Marambio : Flights are already bookeable through Amadeus. LH510/511 is starting on October 28 five times weekly: Sun, Mon, Wed, Fri and Sat. Aircraft used will b
73 Hardiwv : Marcos: thanks for the details. It means LH will indeed operate daily to EZE, 5 weekly nonstop and 2 weekly via GRU. It means a huge increase in capa
74 HB-IWC : At least KLM has been actively looking into returning to EZE, yet the outcome of these considerations is per yet unclear. If KLM were to return to EZ
75 Hardiwv : With LH back to EZE nonstop, the market to EZE seems to be changing, and I dont think there is room for KLM to return to EZE nonstop. BA is also acti
76 DABVF : Currently there is only planned 5/7 FRA-EZE nonstop, but the 2/7 (FRA-)GRU-EZE is not shown in the CRS.
77 Leskova : And according to the eMail I mentioned earlier, it will not be the case: it'll be 5 nonstop to EZE and no flights via GRU: LH502/LH503 will not be op
78 LH506 : LH also has a press release on its web page and they are only mentioning the 5X Non-Stop, not the 2X via GRU, so I guess that clarifies it.
79 Post contains images Leskova : Well... the eMail I'm talking about came directly from LH, so it's not really a surprise that they're saying the same thing on their website...
80 Post contains links Hardiwv : Here is the official press release: http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/html...en/app/show/en/2007/06/691/HOM&s=0 It also entails GRU will get dedicated
81 Marambio : Interestingly enough, when I looked yesterday night at Amadeus, it gave me the option of flying LH503 EZE-GRU-FRA on the days the new LH511 will not
82 Marambio : After re-checking at Amadeus, I stand corrected. Apparently they forgot to modify it yesterday night. On Tuesdays and Thursdays LH506 ends at GRU and
83 LipeGIG : Compared with two months ago, the offer of seats to South America from FRA increased from 3640 weekly seats to 6640 weekly seats. And TAM is looking f
84 Hardiwv : I think the market has room to accommodate all the expansion. LH has a strong FF pax base in Brazil and wont have any problem. Now, TAM could only st
85 LipeGIG : Hardi, AF expansion has been made not immediate (except for the 2nd GIG-CDG).. they first of all add 3x weekly A332 service (around 600 weekly seats),
86 Marambio : Lipe, I tend to believe AF has been operating flights to South America not necessarily because they make lots of money, but mostly because that way th
87 Hardiwv : 7 daily from October with the start of GIG double daily.... If LH wants to work in needs to be competitive: i.e. EZE daily red-eye; GIG daily red-eye
88 AF086 : Red-eye, daily and nonstop. But I have my doubts if LH will ever do that. That's not GIG's case. Their Rio service has 90+ % loads all year long and
89 LipeGIG : You may be right ! And looking for the fact that 2x weekly EZE now needs to use JJ to connect at GRU as well as only 4 months in advance for bookings
90 C010T3 : Exactly! If they're not making big bucks in Rio, they really must be stupid, because the fares they charge are really high compared to other similar
91 Hardiwv : There is no problem with GRU. There is this talk about over-capacity from GRU to Germany but the same could be said about GRU to CDG. Now TAM even me
92 LipeGIG : Hardi, sorry to disagree but Paris and France (CDG) are far ahead in terms of touristic destination from Brazil compared with Germany (FRA) even last
93 IAD380 : I doubt that LH would stop flying to EZE altogether. According to its own website, LH has been offering uninterrupted service to EZE since 1956 - tha
94 Hardiwv : CDG and FRA are all about connections. Nowadays about 80% of AF flights from Brazil to CDG connect onwards to other destinations. I am sure LH will p
95 LipeGIG : Don't think so, as O&D Paris is stronger than FRA. Just need to look for both city sizes and for the touristic appeal. As i comment, Germany city's l
96 Hardiwv : But would have rights for GRU-CDG - meaning they indeed want to establish a THIRD daily GRU-CDG. Germany is the 5th genetor of tourism to Brazil ahea
97 C010T3 : I was looking for those figures! But I disagree with your statement that charters can take care of tourism. TP relies on tourism in its operations in
98 Hardiwv : My point was that you cannot expect a legacy airline to operate a route based on tourism only. TP in NE Brazil is low-yielding, very different from L
99 LipeGIG : I didn't confirm all flights are packed. I said GIG-FRA is packed. No way to revise the bilateral right now. ANAC can ask, but Germany would not agre
100 Hardiwv : I have my doubts RG flights GIG-FRA-GIG are packed, loads on both legs +90%. One thing for sure, for quite some time LH is showing strong loads on it
101 AF086 : Not thanks to their South American "network" that's for sure.
102 LipeGIG : Probably because of GRU... even before the world cup they suspend one of the flights during 8 (eight) months because they need the plane for Asia...
103 Hardiwv : GRU is Brazil. GRU is the "de facto" gateway to Brazil. This explains why GRU gets upgrade: ZRH 6xweek>>daily, MUC A343>>A346; FRA shared B747>>dedic
104 LHUSA : Just because one airline can make a killing in a market does not always mean another airline can do the same. LH's strategy in South America may appea
105 LipeGIG : In the end of 2007, not during entire 2006. In 2006 seems that it's not profitable. They are now trying to grow because they probably realize Latin A
106 Hardiwv : Sorry Lipe, but to state that GRU is UNprofitable for LH is certainly a huge mistake and wrong. GRU is generating high yields and returns to simply a
107 LipeGIG : All that fly nonstop only and need to keep the simple crew base. LH is totally different, keep a flight GRU-EZE with a 744 with around 100 pax, anoth
108 HB-IWC : One has to make a distinction between the route and the station in this case. By coincidence, I have recently seen numbers pertaining to, amongst oth
109 Post contains images Hardiwv : In this case GRU has been "financing" the expensive leg to SCL. Agree 100%
110 C010T3 : That makes a lot of sense! Thank you for sharing the information about tag-on flights in Asia. There's indeed a parallel there, so we could presume t
111 LipeGIG : HB-IWC thanks for clarify the question and confirm that legs such SCL-GRU are a nightmare and profit killer. With SCL and EZE as legs during 8 months
112 Hardiwv : I think what was very clear is that one has to make a distinction between a ROUTE and a STATION. And I repeat: GRU - as a station - is very profitabl
113 LipeGIG : FRA/ZRH-GRU-SCL FRA-GRU-EZE Is not GRU as a station on both legs ? How to see GRU as a station for FRA and not the same for EZE/SCL ? Who said that L
114 Post contains images Hardiwv : FRA-GRU-FRA = responsible station for the result: GRU, being the outside-FRA station GRU-SCL-GRU = SCL and GRU, both being the outside-FRA station wo
115 C010T3 : I am not expecting anything. I was only saying that something has changed, since the children of German employees in Brazil are not that frequent at
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