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787 may face 6 mo. delay, Vought involved  
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29753 times:

I just came back from dinner at AMS where quit a few airline exec's where present, and I've heard from a European airline exec that ordered the 787 that a minimum 6 months delay is announced or will be shortly.

I just noticed the other thread as well, is it about suppliers or Boeing itself? This guy said it was Boeing having serious problems with the composite materials.

I know I'm pro Airbus, but still wants to see the 787 as soon as possible. what's going on? Anyone from the inside with more info? Journalists around us wher very interested, so I assume this will hit the press soon.

KL911


Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
198 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30572 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29699 times:
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All the statements from Boeing principals the last few months have said that the CFRP structures are exceeding projected quality for this stage in the program. The only thing I have heard is that fastener supplies are a bit tight, but Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production.

User currently offlineHB88 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 814 posts, RR: 31
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29561 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
All the statements from Boeing principals the last few months have said that the CFRP structures are exceeding projected quality for this stage in the program. The only thing I have heard is that fastener supplies are a bit tight, but Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production.

I'd be interested to know precisely how Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production of fasteners  Wink The fastener issue (and it's quite a big issue) is hitting near all manufacturers of airframes, not just Boeing. I doubt Alcoa would be cutting Boeing any particular slack in relation to their other customers outside the scope of their normal supply agreements or in a way which adversely affects those supply agreements.

In any case, there are certainly public signs that some 787 things are not quite going completely to plan - the Vought issues with production, the horizontal stab issue, some interesting certification rumours and the 783 EISA certification abandonment.

As the tempo of the program ramps up, from this point onwards is probably the most stressful/critical time for the program up until EIS.


User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29484 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
the statements from Boeing principals the last few months have said that the CFRP structures are exceeding projected quality for this stage in the program. The only thing I have heard is that fastener supplies are a bit tight, but Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production.

ok, but this guy has contacts with Boeing since her ordered the 787 himself, at least signed for it. He got the word from within Boeing, don't blame me...

KL911



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6832 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29484 times:

It seems that Boeing has been very proactive about attacking potential problems head-on and also has been very open about everything that's going on. This is the antithesis of what happened at Airbus with the A380; in that case I believe the managers had their heads in the sand (or perhaps somewhere else) and just refused to believe what the underlings were telling them until they had no choice. I don't see Boeing doing the same; if there was going to be a delay I'm quite sure that the first to know it would be the customers, and the public would know soon after.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 850 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29484 times:

If Boeing have delay of 787 I guess that will be announced at the Paris Air Show

Just my  twocents 

Micke//  Smile



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29451 times:

An ontime rollout won't mean much. If first flight is ontime, that will be a good indicator that everything is likely to be more or less ok. If the first flight is late, then we can expect first delivery to be late also. Anyway, there is not yet enough to expect delays. The 787 appears to be ontime.

User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29451 times:

Quoting KL911 (Thread starter):

It would be rather strange and very unlike boeing (atleast boeing of recent times) to announce a delay in the near future when there entire team was just saying at there confrence call a few weeks ago that everything was on schedule for roll out , first flight and EIS . However this 6 month rumour does not seem to die down. IIRC it all started with JL mentioning it a few months back (from what he heard from suppliers common to boeing and airbus) and has refused to die down . We will see if boeing announces a delay shortly , however with all this A.net hype that is created from that one article i would assume that boeing would come out either way accepting or rejecting these rumours (Atleast Randy B read A.net forums ) .

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...rticles/0524biz-mktsector0524.html


User currently offlineSphealey From United States of America, joined May 2005, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29412 times:

Nothing has been released on Boeing's investor news site nor to any of the financial wire services that I have seen. And no SEC filing either (8-K). I am no financial analyst, but I think that if Boeing knows that it is facing a six month delay it has to announce that to the investment world reasonably soon after it becomes aware of the situation.

sPh


User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29379 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
All the statements from Boeing principals the last few months have said that the CFRP structures are exceeding projected quality for this stage in the program. The only thing I have heard is that fastener supplies are a bit tight, but Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production.

I believe there was some quality issues with the HZ stab.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):

I'd be interested to know precisely how Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production of fasteners Wink The fastener issue (and it's quite a big issue) is hitting near all manufacturers of airframes, not just Boeing. I doubt Alcoa would be cutting Boeing any particular slack in relation to their other customers outside the scope of their normal supply agreements or in a way which adversely affects those supply agreements.

Isn't the shortage for Titanium fasteners?

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):
As the tempo of the program ramps up, from this point onwards is probably the most stressful/critical time for the program up until EIS.

Certainly as the program bottlenecks down to first delivery, the milestones become more and more important, and along with those the stress levels increase (except for one exec at Vought)

Cheers


User currently offlineRemcor From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29379 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
If Boeing have delay of 787 I guess that will be announced at the Paris Air Show

Don't you want to announce GOOD news at the biggest airshow the year?

I'd rather bet they'd do it WashingtonDC style and make the announcement Friday evening so it doesn't get as much press coverage. Well, maybe not, but still there's no reason that you'd want to throw egg on your face at a venue where EVERYONE is watching.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29304 times:

RE: Mad Dash To Finish 787 Gets Trickier (by DeltaDC9 May 17 2007 in Civil Aviation)

User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29305 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 4):
if there was going to be a delay I'm quite sure that the first to know it would be the customers,

This news came from a customer.... read carefully.... I also want to see the 787 soon, but its what he told the guy where I was standing next to.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29305 times:

"IF" the 787 is late to deliver, we will see a STRIKE next year at Boeing. Once the Union Boys/Girls walk out, Boeing will provide the Airlines/Operators with their new delivery schedule. Boeing WILL make the next labor contract so bad that the Union will walk, then just after 31 days make amends.

Cheers


User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29228 times:

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 14):
"IF" the 787 is late to deliver, we will see a STRIKE next year at Boeing. Once the Union Boys/Girls walk out, Boeing will provide the Airlines/Operators with their new delivery schedule. Boeing WILL make the next labor contract so bad that the Union will walk, then just after 31 days make amends.

'

Why is that? normally ( here in europe) a company goed to court, and if a strike is damaging the company or customers it will be forbidden. As it should be in my opinion. If you don't like your work, find something else...



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29146 times:

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 15):
Surprising that this thread has only 14 replies so far....it should have crossed 100 by now....are all a.nutters (and A vs. B fanatics) asleep...?

It's weekend......Europeans are in a bar ( where I heard this news..) Americans are still waking up or working.... Smile



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2075 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29053 times:

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 15):
Surprising that this thread has only 14 replies so far....it should have crossed 100 by now....are all a.nutters (and A vs. B fanatics) asleep...?

There are other threads about this subject.

... and it seems that A fanatics are not so gleeful and childish as B fanatics were (with hundreds of threads and gloating posts) about the problems of A with the A380 and the A350.

I hope that Boeing will solve his apparent problems ASAP.  Smile

Axel

[Edited 2007-06-08 22:01:32]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6832 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29053 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):

This news came from a customer.... read carefully.... I also want to see the 787 soon, but its what he told the guy where I was standing next to.

Yes, I read that. I was not saying there wouldn't be a delay, I was saying the customers would know it first. But I do not know what your informant's capacity is; rumors fly around every organization and not even relatively high-ranking people always know what is true and what isn't. If Boeing is experiencing problems (which I'm sure they are; I have no idea of how serious they are) I'm quite sure they have informed the airlines of exactly what the situation is, and if there is a potential of a delay then they know it and precisely why. What I suspect MAY be the case is that Boeing has said that if X, Y, or Z happens then there will be a delay, and some who have been informed have interpreted that as that there will be a delay. I doubt at this point that Boeing knows that there will be a delay; so far everything seems to be pretty much on track with no more than the expected number of glitches.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 29021 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 16):
Why is that? normally ( here in europe) a company goed to court, and if a strike is damaging the company or customers it will be forbidden. As it should be in my opinion. If you don't like your work, find something else...

I think you misunderstood. If there is a delay to the 787 program, I''m betting that BOEING will force a labor issue to ensure the Union goes on Strike (the IAM Contract is up the 3rd Quarter next year). Once the 30 or so days pass (which would wipe out contractual penalties with Boeings Customers per the Contracts), Boeing and the Union will have a meeting of the minds and they will return to work. Workers will receive a nice return to work bonus and Boeing will be able to re-write the delivery schedules without penalty.

But, lets hope it delivers on time.

Cheers

[Edited 2007-06-08 22:10:08]

User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 28933 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
If Boeing have delay of 787 I guess that will be announced at the Paris Air Show

I think waiting sounds illegal. If the company knows something that is going to impact their financials in a substantive manner, like a 6 month delay on a major product line, they are required to make that information public right away. If there were a magical and sudden 6 month delay after so many "we're on time, no reason to believe otherwise" statements, I'd think they'd just come out and say it - and not at a huge airshow.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 14):
Surprising that this thread has only 14 replies so far....it should have crossed 100 by now....are all a.nutters (and A vs. B fanatics) asleep...? Big grin

I think everyone realizes this is wishful thinking on the part of some and mostly just alarmist nonsense. I'm yet to see an authoritative source anywhere about this.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 28907 times:

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 19):
I think you misunderstood. If there is a delay to the 787 program, I''m betting that BOEING will force a labor issue to ensure the Union goes on Strike (the IAM Contract is up next 3rd Quarter next year). Once the 30 or so days pass (which would wipe out in contractual penalties with Boeings Customers per the Contracts), Boeing and the Union will have a meeting of the minds and they will return to work. Workers will receive a nice return to work bonus and Boeing will be able to re-write the delivery schedules without penalty.

But, lets hope it delivers on time.

Is this common practice, and legal? Just curious.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5732 posts, RR: 48
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 28908 times:

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):
I'd be interested to know precisely how Boeing is working with Alcoa to ramp up production of fasteners The fastener issue (and it's quite a big issue) is hitting near all manufacturers of airframes, not just Boeing. I doubt Alcoa would be cutting Boeing any particular slack in relation to their other customers outside the scope of their normal supply agreements or in a way which adversely affects those supply agreements.

As with any OEM, Boeing wold work with all suppliers to get the required parts in a timely manner. Boeing is working with Alcoa to do just that and that what you would expect them to do. BTW, I know for a fact that fasteners are no longer an issue for Boeing and the 787.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):
In any case, there are certainly public signs that some 787 things are not quite going completely to plan - the Vought issues with production

Well if Vought and Global Aeronautica continue to deliver fuselage section then whatever issues Vought has has been solved. All we know that he could have been fired for past performance and Boeing sent personel to help get things back on track. AS of last month Boeing has stated publically as late as last month, that suppliers are on time and the 787 is on time.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):
the horizontal stab issue

The HTP is repaired and apparetnly Alenia has worked to prevent any future problems in the HTP. That was just the first one and does not indicate a problem that is endemic to the rest of the production HTPs.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 2):
some interesting certification rumours and the 783 EISA certification abandonment.

Uh huh, Boeing has been working with both EASA and the FAA on all issues related to certification and are prepared even with the special conditions.

the 783 certification was abandoned because EASA was some unexplained reason raised the fee for certification. It has nothing to do with the aircraft it self. I don't understand why you even bought that one up?

Boeing issues with the 787 are certainly nowhere like the issues Airbus has with the A380.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 28833 times:

Well, if he just ordered it recently, it might be that ramp up will be slower than expected and that HIS AIRLINE may have a delayed delivery of 6 months.

This is something I can see happening if the problems at suppliers are not sorted out. But with recent statements by Boeing about EIS, I find it less likely that the whole program will be delayed 6 months, despite what Clickhappy is saying.

If the rumor gains traction, then we'll get a response from Boeing, and it will clear it up. If Boeing says no, and later it turns out to be true and the SEC investigates and finds out that they knew about it early, people would go to jail...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2075 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 28716 times:

http://www.aero.de/news.php?varnewsid=3731

Quote:
Bereits in den vergangenen Monaten mehrten sich Gerüchte, dass es in der Rumpffertigung des 787-Programms zu Verzögerungen kommen könnte. Branchenanalysten werten die Entlassung eines zentralen Managers während der kritischen Produktionsphase als Indiz für ernsthafte Probleme in der Fertigungskette, zumal der Zeitplan bis zur ersten Auslieferung einer 787 im Mai kommenden Jahres an die japanische All Nippon Airways (ANA) ohnehin eng angesetzt sei.

Auch die Lieferung zur Rumpfmontage benötigter Spezialnieten durch Alcoa Inc. ist, wie Boeing bestätigte, derzeit im Rückstand (aero.de berichtete). Der Rollout der ersten 787 soll am 8. Juli am Boeing-Werk Everett stattfinden.

Quick translation:

"Already in the past months there were more rumors that it could come to delays in the trunk manufacturing of the 787-programs. Industry analysts rate the dismissal of a central manager during the critical production phase as indication for serious problems in the manufacturing chain, particularly the schedule up to the first delivery of the first 787 in may next year for the Japanese airline Nippon Airways (ANA) is anyway set to close. Also the supply for the fuselage assembly of necessary special rivets by Alcoa Inc. is, like Boeing confirmed, out of plan. The rollout of the first 787 should take place on 8 July at the Boeing work Everett."

Axel

[Edited 2007-06-08 22:22:25]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 28650 times:

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 26):
Industry analysts rate the dismissal of a central manager during the critical production phase as indication for serious problems in the manufacturing chain, particularly the schedule up to the first delivery of the first 787 in may next year for the Japanese airline Nippon Airways (ANA) are anyway set to close.

Other than Mr. A, who are they? Two other analysts say the Vought problems do NOT look to influence EIS.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 Dougloid : I think what you are referring to would be in James Wallace's Seattle PI blog June 7, it makes note of the fact that Vought, maker of the tail sectio
26 Oldeuropean : Sorry? Who should be Mr A. ? I just only quoted a report of Aero. A well known and reliable source about the aviation industry. Axel[Edited 2007-06-0
27 Shenzhen : Boeing, like any other large Corporation, will not tell the public of any delay until they know for absolute certain that there isn't any way to make
28 Post contains images TeamAmerica : What major project ever goes completely to plan? Vought is behind schedule, but that is far different from having an issue with unknown solution. Wha
29 Post contains links Ikramerica : In a PR from today at Boeing.com about Tom Brokaw being the spokesman for the rollout, Boeing still states that EIS will be May 2008. If they know for
30 Post contains links and images Stitch : Here ya go. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...technology/2003722789_alcoa26.html Yes it did not pass an impact test to Boeing's satisfaction, so
31 Shenzhen : Absolutely correct. The guys at the top of these companies aren't angels, otherwise they wouldn't be at the top in the first place. Cheers
32 Post contains images Thebry : Trust me... that's only because this "rumor" hasn't yet been confirmed. When / IF it is confirmed, it'll be open season.
33 Stitch : The markets are now closed, so if Boeing does know something, they're likely to mention it now.
34 Post contains images MCIGuy : I think the folks in Chicago will want to avoid even the appearance that they've hidden something.
35 Post contains images Oldeuropean : Well, I hope that, if confirmed, we will see a neutral discussion. I rather think to have noticed, that the discussions in the last months were, in c
36 Post contains links Danny : Actually the opposite: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_25/b3989049.htm http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/290032_boeingearns26.ht
37 Bringiton : Ummmm what source do you have which states a 6 month delay?
38 Post contains images AndrewUber :
39 SEPilot : " target=_blank>http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/...1.cfm The most recent of these articles are Oct. 2006; none are recent. None of them say that t
40 FCKC : I opened a thread one week ago , but was delayed by moderator. Here what was written in Air&Cosmos Boeing 787 : Always too heavy ? Referring to some c
41 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Ditto. And wouldn't it be more suspicious if Boeing disclosed no problems at all? Anyone who has worked a large project recognizes these "issues" as
42 Post contains links Danny : That is exactly my point. Contrary to some claims in this thread, problems with composite parts have been known for a quite a while. Now today's arti
43 TeamAmerica : That's not what those articles say, nor does today's news from Vought indicate "problems with composite parts". The problems have to do with supply a
44 Aminobwana : None of the suppliers problems is new and known for months. Now, suddenly, all this is prominently displayed. Of course, if I were Boeing, would react
45 Grantcv : Considering that Boeing has all the major components in-house and on the assembly line, if there were truly problems that would cause first flight to
46 Flysherwood : Boeing cannot knowingly hold onto information that has ramifications on the value of its shares. The SEC would come down very hard on Boeing for with
47 Post contains images Flysherwood : It's a little law known as Sarbanes / Oaxley. They will arrest the President & CEO of Boeing if he knowingly withheld information. What are you talki
48 Post contains images Bringiton : Just imagine what would happen if mike bair catches a flu and doesnt show up for work....There would be rumours that the problems were so complex tha
49 Ruscoe : We call that pub gossip! Completely the opposite. B fanatics have had plenty of genuine problems to comment on at Airbus. The A fans have to resort t
50 Khobar : Boeing has maintained that the first few frames (they have given a definite number that I don't recall off hand) will be heavier than they would like
51 Aminobwana : Pls. indicate who is this colleague. Is this one of the posts ?? thanks in advance aminobwana
52 Patches : I work next to a company that builds composite products for a subcontractor of Boeing. This company is building a composite frame about 3 to 4 ft long
53 Boeing7E7 : That's not a problem with the composites. It's a problem getting the parts to go into the section before it heads off to Boeing. As a result, these p
54 797charter : how low can you go...
55 Post contains links Aminobwana : Here is the complete article from DOW JONES, dated today June 8 (already mentioned without its URL in a former post): http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfe
56 Post contains images Solnabo : I take Mr Aboulaughia´s forecast with a big grain of salt, so does many other in here. Micke//
57 McMax : You're kidding me, right? I highly doubt Boeing would induce a strike by its workers merely to cover a delay to their program. Not only would this be
58 OyKIE : Could it be that the program it self is not delayed, but since it seems that Boeing is not able to ramp up production as quickly as they would like,
59 ComeAndGo : Don't read too much into the SEC rules. SEC is pro business. Boeing will report whenever they like.
60 Post contains links BigSky123 : More talk about a potential delay - John Plueger of ILFC for Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSN0835917720070608 The good n
61 McMax : I would normally agree with you on that. However, while Chris Cox (the current head of the SEC) is a conservative, the SEC has been cracking down a b
62 Post contains links NAV20 : What there IS from Boeing points in the other direction. The 'new Randy' is not nearly as prolific as Randy Baseler but he did post this on 29th. May
63 Gbfra : I received two messages from Boeing yesterday (I'm a journalist). None of them was indicating a delay. On the contrary: They were refering to May 2008
64 2175301 : I doubt that this is a major problem for the program. This is a small part - and I believe that it is likely that Boeing has an alternate part availa
65 Aminobwana : Could you share with us these messages ?? Dankeschoen ! aminobwana
66 Beaucaire : It is most likely possible that Boeing do have back-up scenario's for crisis situations-like Airbus. But you only can manage simultaneously a certain
67 Aminobwana : So do I !! But one thing is what he forecasts and as I said, the other what he INFORMS. And there are no doubt that he is extremely well informed and
68 Post contains links Gbfra : One message was an official announcement that you can find on their homepage too: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2007/q2/070608b_nr.html
69 NAV20 : Sure, out-sourcing can increase risk, Beaucaire - but risk is inseparable from business, the economists' definition of profit is 'a return on risk.'
70 Post contains links Stitch : [b]Major Boeing partner behind schedule on 787[/] http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...echnology/2003740894_boeing09.html[Edited 2007-06-09 16:09:58
71 FlyDreamliner : There is not a SINGLE authoratative source yet. All these "i heard from someone who heard from someone who knows!." It's like a bunch of middle-school
72 Ikramerica : Read the article and the memo. It's not exactly what it seems. It's a "booster" memo from the CEO to employees that says "don't worry, we have a plan
73 CHRISBA777ER : I'll believe it when I see it - Boeing have been very much on their game last two or three years and I dont think they are going to screw this up. Rum
74 Post contains images HB88 : So is this $1bn a loss caused by a delay? No company in its right mind earmarks a billion for anything unless they absolutely positively have to. Pay
75 MCIGuy : Twist it how you like but it's not the same. The wiring issue with the A380 was an actual design problem. This issue with Vought appears to be only a
76 HB88 : No. Read what I wrote again. Slowly this time. I was referring to the equipping (stuffing) issues, not the wiring harness issues. You do understand t
77 Azhobo : Yes as i recall Boeing announced this last year in 3rd quarter. They saw this and acknowledged it and earmarked funds for this. ANd it adds to the de
78 MCIGuy : Oh sorry, I was looking at it honestly, not through someone else's veil. You said "not the wiring issues per se". So I guess the "per se" means you w
79 2175301 : I completely disagree. Setting aside $1 Billion or so would be just normal project planning. I work with projects in the 1/2 to 10 million dollar a r
80 Stitch : It's an added expense, yes. And that expense will impact earnings, but that doesn't make it a "loss". Would Boeing prefer not to spend the money? Sur
81 Khobar : The $1B wasn't earmarked exclusively for the 787 program, period. No spin needed.
82 Post contains links and images SkyTaxi : From the Seattle P-I 10/26/06 Boeing said it is spending an additional $1 billion on R&D this year and next. About half of that is to help tackle the
83 Barbarian : We started hearing rumours of a 6 month delay about a month ago. Labinal have been mentioned, but its all just rumour and speculation. Of course worki
84 Bringiton : No it isnt a Loss , it is expense . Loss is when the expenditure exceeds income . Like boeing spent 10 billion developing the 787 , that was expendit
85 SEPilot : As others have mentioned, this is not a loss. It's a case of an ounce of prevention being worth more than a pound of cure. Attacking problems when th
86 Post contains links Poitin : I agree -- Boeing is taking a pro-active stance on dealing with problems unlike another airframe manufacture we can all name. It is also of great int
87 Aminobwana : I agree totally with both above and add: The contingency reserve, which is a calculated cost and as long as not exceeded has no negative effect on th
88 Poitin : I agree with you completely. Many years ago, when I worked for a SCADA systems supplier, we did the same thing -- 15% on proven technology. In your c
89 Post contains images Tugger : Hmmm, a relatively benign thread for a potential AvB tangle. Though I can see the Mods have been hard at work! Well so far its all speculation.... and
90 LarSPL : Username: KL911 This user is temporarily banned due to repeated violation of our forum rules. The account will be activated again as soon as the user
91 Ruscoe : This is pure speculation, but could it be that Boeing will push back all deliveries from a cetain date to all airlines to obtain 6 months of productio
92 DLPMMM : If it is, then you can expect the lawsuits from shareholders to cost more than any customer compensation. You can also expect a complete turnover of
93 Post contains images Stitch : It would have to be an insanely large order to do so and pretty much at list prices to cover the penalties and outright bribes Boeing would have to p
94 Aminobwana : And i add: How many customers Boeing would loose in such case and how many would sue them when realizing that the "insanely large" new order appear i
95 AirSpare : The USAF liked to brag that the SR-71 came in under budget and exceeded all performance minimums. Johnson used to brag there was nothing on the aircr
96 Post contains links OldAeroGuy : Kelley had his flubs as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XF-90 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200108/ai_n8957347 But to be fair, s
97 Post contains links DeltaDC9 : Quoting Sphealey (Reply 8): Nothing has been released on Boeing's investor news site nor to any of the financial wire services that I have seen. And n
98 Post contains images AirSpare : I disagree to a very small extent. Technology is becoming almost a commodity, whereas the Soviet Union and the U.S. had to spend billions on research
99 Post contains links Poitin : Many of our friends in Europe and the rest of the world don't know the result of the Tyco, Worldcomm, Enron, Global Crossings, Martha Steward and oth
100 Khobar : Thomas Borer-Fielding might disagree.
101 Poitin : The Swiss have their own version the law. They have been marching to their own drummer nearly 200 years and are the only country that has their act t
102 Ikramerica : This is the part nobody believes, even many here in the USA who are just assuming that all corporations are evil and will hide things. Unless people
103 Post contains images Flysherwood : The CEO or any other senior manager of Boeing is not allowed to withhold information on a delay in order to sell all of their shares 4 months later. B
104 Post contains links Khobar : That may be true, but your original assertion is that affairs would go completely unnoticed in any European government or corporation. What about the
105 DAYflyer : The 787 will be on time. Boeing must announce any delays because it is a publicly held company and that will adversely affect the value of the shares.
106 USAF336TFS : My hope is that the Mods leave your comments, as is. They seem to say everything that needs to be said.
107 Lemurs : One thing to note about the disclosure laws is that if I understand correctly, they're only required to disclose this information when the impact is f
108 Rheinbote : While there are several known, more or less evident, or rumored hiccups in the 787 program, I am reluctant to add anything to this thread, because so
109 Joni : I think the law is called Sarbanes-Oxley, and I've heard it being characterized as expensive window dressing.
110 Post contains images MCIGuy : Ye-ah, that's why you should take most of what you hear with a grain of salt.
111 DAYflyer : If you were a corporate CPA in the USA, you would know better that to take such a silly charecterization seriously.
112 Lemurs : Right, that's a good point. If the news turns up late, investors will get angry and demand an investigation to see what Boeing knew and when. They'll
113 Tugger : Nobody has made a comment that perhaps this may just be a statement that the "middle" of the early delivery schedule (say after the first years orders
114 TeamAmerica : I'll pile on this one, Joni. Regardless of what you've heard, Sarbanes-Oxley is very serious - many businesses are over-reporting on activities out o
115 DLPMMM : In believe the standard for public disclosure is if the news will LIKELY result is a significant impact in earnings. If there is a good possiblilty i
116 AirFrnt : Wow. I suggest some homework. Sarbanes-Oxley is a major issue over here, and the reporting requirements in it dwarf anything in the EU. It's such a m
117 Lemurs : Which, again, you can't know until you understand the problem and address ways you could remove or shorten the delay. Like I said, you can't report e
118 Post contains links Poitin : This is what happens in the US nowadays if you play games. Sarbanes-Oxley came into being because of these cases, and there is no longer any "I didn'
119 IAD787 : My .02: Everything I'm hearing from the floor is positive. The fasteners are NOT an issue on LN001. The roll out will be on time, and there have been
120 Poitin : Okay, I gotta ask. Just where does a civil servant in Boston get this sort of information? Do you work at Boeing at Seattle?
121 IAD787 : I get it from sources who are around the industry. They are like a lot of people on these forums. You just have to know how/who to ask and who to lis
122 Post contains images Joni : I don't dispute that SOX needs to be taken seriously by US-based (and US-listed) companies, but it isn't a panacea to remove corporate fraud because
123 Poitin : Tell that to all the miscreatant CEOs now in jail.
124 Philly Phlyer : As a CPA in the US, I don't believe you understand the hammer that Sarbanes-Oxley has provided the regulators. If Boeing knows it has a probable 6 mo
125 Poitin : You have summarized the issues well. As for the international money boys moving out, that is fine by me. Let them screw up some other nation's financ
126 Clickhappy : I have heard NOTHING firm to the contrary from people on the assembly floor. I am sorry to call you out on it, but it simply is not true. Go to any ta
127 DeltaDC9 : Amazing how anyone can think otherwise after Sarbanes Oxley came into effect Somewhere betweeen the Judge and the jury. By someone ignorant of its co
128 Stitch : To heck with Sarbanes-Oxley. There is something far, far more terrible that Boeing has to face if they willfully conceal issues that materially affect
129 Pygmalion : Hundreds every day, in the factory, not in a bar. How many does a photographer talk to besides those that whine in a bar about working too many hours
130 Clickhappy : Whoa whoa whoa, slow your roll! My comment wasn't even directed at you. You are taking bar gossip from mechanics as the real state of the program? For
131 PlanesNTrains : Does anyone know what work was being done on the program recently in Winnipeg? A friend's mom was up there for several months this year helping to get
132 Cymro : I agree that the factory floor is normally the last to know, however there cant be smoke without a little fire!. I dont agree with you that the worke
133 Post contains images DeltaDC9 : My 20 years in show business makes me certian that you are wrong. We must be.
134 EI321 : So whats the conclusion? Whats the word on the street over at Boeing HQ?
135 Post contains images Wsp : Which of the items in that form apply to a possible -insert whatever underlying problem this thread is actually about-? " target=_blank>http://www.fo
136 Cymro : V. sharp but my experience in a relevant industry tells me that most of the time there will be something behind shopfloor rumours. Do you work in the
137 DeltaDC9 : Ans moetimes it is even accurate, but nothing you can hang your hat on. I was speaking of production workers in the US, all industries. In fact, all
138 SEPilot : My experience is that by and large the workers on the floor see management as totally incompetent, they see every problem as insurmountable and are c
139 DeltaDC9 : That is my experience also. The Japanese management at Toyota still has a hard time dealing with this kind of attitude at US factories, it simply ama
140 Cymro : I wasn't hanging my hat on it hence the use of 'a little fire' . Oh well must be different from what I am used to. This is me being thick, but this d
141 SEPilot : The most notable con game in US history has been selling the Brooklyn Bridge; my comment is a backhanded way is I think you are being gullible. Sorry
142 Cymro : Thanks for explanation, not sure how you can take gullible from what I have said! but that is your opinion so it must seem that way to some.
143 474218 : I don't know how many time I have heard "when they stop bitching, start worrying" Thats because he demanded (and got) complete control of the program
144 Khobar : So which is it - first flight is delayed or the program itself? Here you suggest it's the first flight, but earlier you said, "Go to any tavern in Ev
145 Clickhappy : My comments have always been that the first flight will be delayed. I don't know how this will affect the overall schedule. When I said on time I was
146 SEPilot : I guess it's just the attitude of most American workers; those of us who have grown up with it have gotten used to it and it doesn't seem unusual. Th
147 Pygmalion : After 9-11 and the subsequent 30%+ layoffs amongst the shop folk at Boeing, most experienced mechanics are 40-45 years old, have more than one new pr
148 Poitin : That is the point. Our friends in Europe apparently have no idea just what has happened with SOX. An accurate statement of what SOX is all about. If
149 Post contains images Ikramerica : That's why I asked when the next conference call to investors, report to the SEC or filing of any kind was for Boeing. They would be obligated to repo
150 Post contains links Aminobwana : . The URL below by FLIGHTBLOGGER itself was already posted , but as far I can see the content not commented. [url] http://flightblogger.blogspot.com/[
151 Khobar : Indeed, which is why I asked for the clarification - I *think* some of the posts have been deleted. And perhaps I did not clearly convey my message w
152 Post contains images Clickhappy : Wow, you are really analyzing my words! Here was my original sentence: For the record I hope Boeing gets the plane in the air and in to service on tim
153 Wsp : You have not replied to my questions. There is no need to drag the EU or Airbus into this discussion. This is all OT and clearly not an answer to my
154 BHMBAGLOCK : It's not perfect but I don't know of any better solution elsewhere. Any law will be broken on occasion by those who let their ego get out of control
155 Khobar : Yes, for several reasons. One, you've made a bold claim, to put it lightly, that you've repeated and maintained. Two, you've used your reputation and
156 Bringiton : I think we would know by Paris here is boeing's press schedule - ""The Boeing schedule begins on Monday, June 18 with a press conference at 0945 hoste
157 DAYflyer : Absolutely. And then there are the independent auditors, who answer to no one. Absolutely, the best in the business.
158 Post contains links Stitch : The Seattle Times this morning noted that there was a gap of a few mm between Sections 41 and 43, which has now been corrected. However, such gaps may
159 SEPilot : I certainly do not see this as unexpected. I'm sure they will resolve it for future frames; my solution would be to make master templates of the joini
160 Post contains links UAL747-600 : Here you go nay sayers. Right from the horses mouth. 787 schedule not impacted by issues at Vought. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...llenges-are
161 NYC777 : Dude I respect your contrbution on the forum plenty but I've talked to people in the 787 program and they are insisting that they will be on time for
162 Post contains links Poitin : Since you are too lazy to read the Act, try Section 302 of the Act mandates a set of internal procedures designed to ensure accurate financial disclo
163 Dougloid : That's because in the places where they teach management in this country they still think Frederick Taylor is alive and well. That's how the newly mi
164 SEPilot : I have to agree with you here. By and large the best managers are the ones that come up through the ranks and thus know what they are managing, but n
165 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Just to air Boeing's side..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...llenges-are-not-impacting-787.html Quote: "Challenges faced by key Boeing 787 su
166 TeamAmerica : More likely a jig than a template. Fix the barrel ends into the proper shape before stuffing. With the internal structure added it should tend to sup
167 Post contains links Wsp : This refers to "periodic reports" not ad hoc press releases. Can you point to the specific text of that rule. The text you wrote sounds vague and leg
168 Dank : . I sure hope that they are worried. To not be worried would imply that they are being arrogant about the program. Does that mean that there is a del
169 IAD787 : Well, we've beaten this one to a pulp over the last several hours speculating what this issue actually means. Frankly, this was a non-story for the mo
170 Clickhappy : I find it amusing that James Wallace is being attacked on his blog...accused of "stirring the dust." Whatever that means.
171 Post contains images Stitch : With all the crap that was laid on Airbus in this forum for the A388's delays, it is to be expected that Boeing will be similarly savaged for any perc
172 Post contains images HB88 : "Honestly" my a*s. You're attempting to put words in my mouth. Don't try and do that, it's rude and poor forum etiquette, no matter how much you genu
173 NYC777 : Love it when the Airbus cheerleaders squad get all the skirts bunched up in their arse over the 787 non-issues and unsubstantiated rumors.
174 Stitch : The Seattle Times article I linked to on this subject did note that as future barrels ship with all internal fittings installed, this problem may cro
175 KL911 : As if the Boeing cheerleaders haven't done the same bringing down the A380 while it's far superior and way more 'Queen of the skies' than an average
176 HB88 : You're quite right. Mating fuse sections does sometimes require finagling into place. However, these are usually to deal with gaps/misalignments whic
177 Stitch : At least one Boeing machinist believes otherwise according to the Seattle Times article -
178 Shenzhen : For a true believer that still thinks the A380 issues are IFE. I think you should place your mountain between Rainier and St. Helens, as I saw a mole
179 HB88 : Crikey, I mustn't be a true believer then. I have utterly no illusions as to the reasons behind the A380 delay. Do you Boeing fanboys really believe
180 Post contains links Khobar : And thus your true motivation is revealed. This is not a full-circumference mismatch. One would think the various partners would all have the necessa
181 DLPMMM : " target=_blank>http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/a...5.asp And with that definitive statement statement made by an official Boeing spokesperson show
182 HB88 : My friend, if that criteria had ever been applied to the hysterical whipping that Airbus has received in the forums over the last year in relation to
183 Post contains images Stitch : The other thread has been deleted, but I was answering a few questions which I think are pertinent since they relate to the current discussion on this
184 Legoguy : Will these problems appear when Boeing fit together the forward and rear sections? How exactly is the problem solved on any aircraft that has mis-fit
185 HB88 : I don't know. Most Boeing fans assume a level of prescience on Boeings part which would completely disallow anything remotely unexpected. In any case
186 DAYflyer : yeah me too.
187 Post contains images MCIGuy : That's becase this particular spokesperson just put her future freedom on the line by making that statement. If it were revealed that it's not true a
188 Stitch : Agreed.
189 Post contains images MCIGuy : This just in: 787 fuslelage sections not a perfect fit! Spirit Aerosystems to announce resignations, potential additional 6 month delay to 787!
190 Post contains images Rheinbote :
191 XT6Wagon : MCIGuy, no need to cover up, My super secret double undercover guy said he also told you about the real changes to the program... Boeing has complete
192 Halls120 : IIRC, wasn't there an article sometime in the last year that suggested that some of the 737's arriving in Seattle were so out of tolerance that there
193 Khobar : The rumour of a delay is just that - a rumour. Boeing has come out and said the rumour was false. Why do you insist otherwise? They might. The proble
194 Post contains images Astuteman : Surprise echoed here....... It should be possible to eradicate this at source, before the sections ever get to the FAL. It's possible there has been
195 HB88 : Sorry, I meant to only refer to the section mismatch issue which is not a rumour. The mods kept deleting a separate discussion on this topic and insi
196 Post contains images Stitch : Don't worry. Just take her a few hundred meters deeper on her first dive and the pressure should pop it right back into place.
197 DeltaDC9 : If a section is buldging 1/2 inch, I would assume they could build up the area with some sort of bonding agent/filler. They would probably not want to
198 Srbmod : Since so much of this thread has gone off topic (This thread is not about US Corporate laws), it is being locked.
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