MPLSflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 18 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 years 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6194 times:
Being from Minnesota, there is no other real choice than to fly on NW. I know that NW doesn't have many non-stop international flights from MSP but I was wondering if they decided to acquire the 767 or the 777 instead of the A330 (mainly the -300), would that have sparked an increase in international travel, primarly to Europe and now hopefully China. Would those two aircraft have been a good option for NW.
Also, would the 777-300 be a good replacement for their ageing 747 fleet the currently opperate to Asia.
Asiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1030 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 week 4 days ago) and read 6116 times:
Hi, I would guess that 767/777 was the option they had when they decided to buy new WBs some years ago, and they apparently found better value in acquiring A330s. I'm sure someone else knows more about what their decision process was like.
Regarding NWs 747 replacement for the Asia routes, they already use A330s across the pacific to their Asia hub at NRT.
LAX-NRT is still a 747 route, but SFO as well as Portland and I think Seattle too are A330s routes.
When changing plane at NRT, its not unusual to see 6-7 NW A330 there at the same time.
For NW to buy T7s now is out of question I think, as they already have 787s on order.
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6029 posts, RR: 9 Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 week 4 days ago) and read 6116 times:
Quoting MPLSflyer (Thread starter): but I was wondering if they decided to acquire the 767 or the 777 instead of the A330 (mainly the -300), would that have sparked an increase in international travel, primarly to Europe and now hopefully China.
Why would international travel to Europe have increased from MSP if NW had bought the 767/777 instead of the 330. The 330 is as good if not better from MSP to points in Europe.
TinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 963 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5942 times:
I can't speak for the 767's but I did read a very indepth article about this very topic where NW put the T7 up against the A333 and what they found is that for their mission profile, the A333 was cheaper for them to operate mainly because it is lighter than the T7ER. Commonailty with their A32X's was also a factor.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
NASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3099 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5921 times:
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 2): Why would international travel to Europe have increased from MSP if NW had bought the 767/777 instead of the 330. The 330 is as good if not better from MSP to points in Europe.
Probably due to the 767 being smaller than the A330, and the 777 being smaller than the 747. I think he is suggesting that Northwest could possibly fill a 767 to FRA or CDG from MSP, while they can't fill an A330.
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6029 posts, RR: 9 Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5860 times:
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 4): I think he is suggesting that Northwest could possibly fill a 767 to FRA or CDG from MSP, while they can't fill an A330.
The 330-200 is only slightly larger than the 767-200/300 and I believe more economical. NWA has the 330-200 and is not flying MSP-FRA or MSP-CDG. Having 767's would not change that fact. When NWA feels it is to it's economic advantage to add trans-atlantic service from MSP it will do so and it won't be with a 767 or 777, even though they are fine aircraft.
RJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5838 times:
Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 3): I can't speak for the 767's but I did read a very indepth article about this very topic where NW put the T7 up against the A333 and what they found is that for their mission profile, the A333 was cheaper for them to operate mainly because it is lighter than the T7ER. Commonailty with their A32X's was also a factor.
I remember that article...But across the Pacific, it will be an entirely different story...And I think NW will be ordering in sufficient numbers to make it acceptable to introduce a new fleet (777) if it makes sense.
3201 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5617 times:
Quoting MPLSflyer (Thread starter):
Also, would the 777-300 be a good replacement for their ageing 747 fleet the currently opperate to Asia.
Given their 787 order and the relative ages of their 330 and 747 fleets, the conventional wisdom is that their strategy for replacing the 747 is to de-emphasize NRT, using the 787 to do more direct flying from the US to points in Asia, and retiring the 747 in conjunction with that shift.
Solnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 795 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5617 times:
Quoting MD90fan (Reply 8): Why would you want 767/777s when you could get A330s at 757s prices? (Weren't they rumored to have gotten A330s at 80 million dollars?)
3201 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5586 times:
Quoting Solnabo (Reply 10):
According to who, and what rumour?
It was widely quoted, so often as to become the kind of thing you no longer need to source. I think originally it was a local NWA employee in PDX who spilled it to the local press there when they started PDX-NRT?
WetleaseWill From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5575 times:
I love NWA's A330 International Service. They may lack in some areas, but I think they are the best International provider (out of the majors) that the US has.
FWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3220 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4733 times:
I know a longtime friend who is an A330 trans-Atlantic pilot for NW, and he said this a while ago: NW seriously considered the 767, but rejected it because it didn't hold enough cargo, especially on trans-Pacific flights (where the red tail has a huge cargo biz).
Still, I wouldn't be surprised if NW orders the 777 at some point in the future. The 773ER would be the perfect 744 replacement for NW, as NW wants smaller planes for Asian routes, but it wouldn't be too much of a capacity downgrade. Plus, there's cockpit commonality with the 787s that NW has ordered. Ordering 773ERs would also allow NW to convert their remaining 744s to freighters to replace the old 742Fs.
But, then again, for an airline that's still operating DC-9s, maybe replacing 742Fs isn't a big issue...
FlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15 Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3789 times:
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 5):
The 330-200 is only slightly larger than the 767-200/300 and I believe more economical.
No way! More economical per seat, certainly, but A330-200 is 767-400ER sized, much larger than -300 and especially -200. A330 is a big plane. 767 less so.
NW got great prices on their A330s, and when NW bought them, they weren't really thinking that much about the pacific, where the 777 would have made more sense.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
Nwarooster From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 864 posts, RR: 3 Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3708 times:
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 14): I know a longtime friend who is an A330 trans-Atlantic pilot for NW, and he said this a while ago: NW seriously considered the 767, but rejected it because it didn't hold enough cargo, especially on trans-Pacific flights (where the red tail has a huge cargo biz).
Still, I wouldn't be surprised if NW orders the 777 at some point in the future. The 773ER would be the perfect 744 replacement for NW, as NW wants smaller planes for Asian routes, but it wouldn't be too much of a capacity downgrade. Plus, there's cockpit commonality with the 787s that NW has ordered. Ordering 773ERs would also allow NW to convert their remaining 744s to freighters to replace the old 742Fs.
But, then again, for an airline that's still operating DC-9s, maybe replacing 742Fs isn't a big issue...
Northwest will convert the 744s to freighters as the 787s come on line. The only reason NWA would buy 747-8 freighters is that converted 744s do NOT have a nose door. The might buy the 747-8 freighter, if Boeing gave NWA a deal they could not reuse.
Asiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1030 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3635 times:
Quoting Solnabo (Reply 7): Would love to see NW A340 in silver n red...
That would have been a really beauty.
Why didn't they take any A340s at all?
After phasing out their B747, NW will be left with A330 and B787 as their biggest planes.
Isn't that unusual to have that size as their biggest in the fleet?
Most major airlines will have T7, A350 or A380 as their biggest planes after retiring 747 in the future.
Is that enough for such a large airline as NW?
FlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15 Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3563 times:
Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 17): Quoting Solnabo (Reply 7):
Would love to see NW A340 in silver n red...
That would have been a really beauty.
Why didn't they take any A340s at all?
After phasing out their B747, NW will be left with A330 and B787 as their biggest planes.
Isn't that unusual to have that size as their biggest in the fleet?
Most major airlines will have T7, A350 or A380 as their biggest planes after retiring 747 in the future.
Is that enough for such a large airline as NW?
Some of their asian routes really need an aircraft bigger than a 787 or A332. They'll either keep some pax 744s or they'll order something to replace them. what they'd buy is anyone's guess. interesting to note, they keep the 777 in their pilot's contract.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
DfwRevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3510 times:
Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 17): Why didn't they take any A340s at all?
NW was an early customer for the A340 when it was to be powered by the IAE Superfan engine. The Superfan was an early geared turbofan concept that would have offered significantly lower fuel burn than anything in its thrust class, but proved far too ambitious for its era. Even now, there's some trepidation around the geared turbofan. IAE canceled the program and Airbus had to scramble to salvage the A340's performance. The A340 switched to CFM56 engines and implemented cutting-edge winglets to improve cruise performance, but NW had other ideas.
Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 17): After phasing out their B747, NW will be left with A330 and B787 as their biggest planes.
Isn't that unusual to have that size as their biggest in the fleet?
Several major U.S. airlines have nothing larger than the 777-200ER now: AA, CO, DL...
The A333 and 789 are only slightly smaller than the 772ER, and the 787-10 is essentially a like-for-like replacement to the 772ER. I think we will see many U.S. airlines consolidate to a 787-only longhaul fleet in time. Whether NW will join that party is questionable because of their current 747-400 fleet.
ConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2764 times:
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15): and when NW bought them, they weren't really thinking that much about the pacific, where the 777 would have made more sense.
...actually they did. Their point of contention was the lackluster performance and MTOW limitation imposed by the PW4090 on potential transpac stage lengths, and (unlike DL) they were not willing to switch to RR/GE.
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2599 times:
I tink for nwa the a330 were the more ecomic ones & it fits cargo better & they didn´t need the 777-200ER range on the Atlantic.
The A333 can carry about the same number of passengers and ld3´s but empty weight is about 20.000 kg or 38.000 lb lower then the 777-200. That means a lot of fuel.
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6029 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2587 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 22): tink for nwa the a330 were the more ecomic ones & it fits cargo better & they didn´t need the 777-200ER range on the Atlantic.
The A333 can carry about the same number of passengers and ld3´s but empty weight is about 20.000 kg or 38.000 lb lower then the 777-200. That means a lot of fuel.
Mli717fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2458 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 22): I tink for nwa the a330 were the more ecomic ones & it fits cargo better & they didn´t need the 777-200ER range on the Atlantic.
Are those A330 numbers for the A332 or A333? It seems unlikely that both would have the exact same CASM.
26 Asiaflyer: CASM is written under the graph. Very relevant question. And what is the CASM for 777-300? Very nice graph Keesje, even it is a little outdated with
27 Bimmerkid19: Gonig back to the A330 vs 767/777 issue... before 9/11, the A330 orders that NWA had were actually for A340-300 and -200.... but then after 9/11, they
28 TrijetsRMissed: During the 763's heyday, NW opted to acquire cheaper second hand DC-10-30's instead. Fuel price issues were not the same and many were newer built mod
29 Bobnwa: NWA canceled the A340 order years before 9/11. If I am not mistaken the A340 order by NWA was for all A340-200's. The A330-300 was just as large or l
30 B4REAL: Correct, the specific reason was that the 76 can not accomodate the LD3 container as the A330 could.
31 ConcordeBoy: ...you do remember that the A343 came before the A342, right?
32 Bobnwa: Yes I do remember, but what does that have to do with the subject?
33 PSU.DTW.SCE: Here's the short of it: -Early 90's: NW placed a large order for A330 & A340's. -Early 90's: NW fell on hard times financially - deffered Airbus wideb
34 ConcordeBoy: ...well, unless you're talking about their A333 order (sentence isn't very clear), then it seems like you were comparing the size of the A333 and A34
Sponsor Message: 
From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 18 posts, 
From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1030 posts, 
From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 795 posts, 
From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, 
From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 449 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
Printer friendly format 
