Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Kid's Cell Phones Worry Airlines  
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3599 posts, RR: 20
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8578 times:

Children's cell phones worry airlines

(some excerpts)

Quote:
As the summer vacation season approaches, airlines are growing increasingly concerned about children bringing cell phones, portable video game consoles and other electronic devices onto planes, as they could interfere with navigation systems.

Airlines are especially concerned about children's cell phones, which contain a built-in crime prevention function that automatically restarts the phone if it is switched off.

In March last year, NTT DoCoMo Inc. introduced the Kids Keitai, which includes a built-in global positioning system that allows the handset to send e-mails or transmit a signal notifying parents of their current location.



Quote:
The latest portable video game consoles, such as the Nintendo DS and Sony's PlayStation Portable, also are potential sources of trouble for airlines as they are equipped with wireless communication devices for online gaming.

But the function is not yet covered in rules on electronic devices on planes set by the Construction and Transport Ministry.

Airlines currently have flight attendants ask passengers using such consoles to turn off the wireless communication function.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070610TDY02003.htm

Yet another debate about mobile products on planes.


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
73 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN776AU From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 770 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8504 times:

My phone came on on a flight to ATL from LAX and nothing happened. I had taken it out of my pocket and put it in my bag, where I thought it wouldn't turn on. A couple hours into the flight I decided to check it, and it was on. don't know for how long, but it was still on. Then it hit me, "I'll take the battery out".

I'm a smart cookie  optimist 



Careful, Doors Are Closing And Will Not Reopen. Please Wait For The Next Train
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8385 times:

This further confirms my feeling that airlines/aircraft makers must expect many phones to be on during flight. To expect otherwise would be stupid and highly negligent. If an aircraft that is negatively impacted by operating cell phones is involved in an accident because of those phones, and that fact is proven... lawsuit city (in the US at least).

Note that I'm not arguing the merits of bans on using cell phones on airplanes; I'm just saying that no competent person in airline management can expect people to turn off phones during flight. It would be like driving and ignoring the possibility of jaywalkers.


User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8347 times:

what about laptops with wireless, wouldn't that be the same as the PSP and DS wireless system?

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2858 posts, RR: 49
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8301 times:

Quoting Analog (Reply 2):
This further confirms my feeling that airlines/aircraft makers must expect many phones to be on during flight. To expect otherwise would be stupid and highly negligent.

How do you figure this, exactly? Most aircraft currently in service were designed long before cell phones existed for the traveling public.


User currently offlineGeorgebush From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 679 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8279 times:

I usually always forget to turn my phone off, and guess what I'm still alive!!


Al Gore invented global warming.
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8232 times:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 4):
How do you figure this, exactly? Most aircraft currently in service were designed long before cell phones existed for the traveling public.

I'm not claiming that aircraft are vulnerable to crash because cellphone RF interference, but if they are, and it's known, then operating them would be negligent (unless you confiscate cell phones from all pax). It does not matter when the aircraft was designed. Of course this is a matter of degree.

Imagine an executive in court: "Well, we knew it was dangerous to operate, but the design was old, so we felt it was okay not to fix it."

Luckily it's pretty clear that cellphones are quite harmless; I'd bet the vast majority (>90%; source: my rear end) of flights go out with active cellphones.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2858 posts, RR: 49
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8170 times:

Quoting Analog (Reply 6):
I'm not claiming that aircraft are vulnerable to crash because cellphone RF interference, but if they are, and it's known, then operating them would be negligent (unless you confiscate cell phones from all pax).

No, it would be negligent if the airline KNEW that a cellphone was on and operated in contravention of the FARs.


User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8116 times:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 7):

No, it would be negligent if the airline KNEW that a cellphone was on and operated in contravention of the FARs.

I would say the anyone running an airline KNOWS that x% of flights will go out with cellphones on, and that y% of flights have pax who will operate cellphones during takeoff, flight, and/or landing, where x and y are non-trivial percentages. Any airlines that operate otherwise live in a fantasy world where everyone follows the rules all the time. 100% a priori knowledge of the event is not required for one to be expected to act to prevent harm from such an event (irrespective of FARs).

By the article posted by the OP, it seems that ANA and JAL know that cellphones are operated on their aircraft. Of course on domestic flights no FARs are violated, right.  Smile


User currently offlineVenezuela747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1429 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8102 times:

I have left my phone accidentally on, and when I check it halfway throguh the flight it never picks up signal.
And also I have turned my laptop on thats got wireles, the Wi-Fi never picks up anything and I did look up devices once on bluetooth and it only picked up someone else's laptop but no aircraft equipment



ROLL TIDE!!!
User currently offlineSirOmega From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8102 times:

Hmmm... I hope the iPhone has the ability to turn wifi and the cell phone functionality off.

User currently offlineN710PS From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8082 times:

I routinely leave my cells on in flight but not normally on purpose. I usually turn my cell off by the time we are number two to go or if we are expecting to roll from brakes release all the way I turn it off as soon as we have the salute from the ramp.


There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8076 times:

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 10):


Hmmm... I hope the iPhone has the ability to turn wifi and the cell phone functionality off.

The HTC Hermes (Win Mobile) has individual on/off controls for the phone/3G data, WiFi, and bluetooth. Pretty neat implementation. The WiFi saves $40/month in data charges.


User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7998 times:

99.9999% of devices won't cause any damage on 99.9999% of flights - but on some day a broken plane (say with frayed antenna shielding) with a high power cell (They go into higher power mode when they can't get a signal) or a broken RC toy or broken $5 FM radio could cause interference with voice, navigation, etc. That interference could make a bad situation worse. Then blammo a crash caused by a cell phone.

Everyone knows that in regular use a cell phone won't cause anything bad to happen to a plane.

---

But I have an CB walkie talkie that when plugged into the cigarette lighter of my car causes the horn not to work. Anything else plugged in - no problem. I can't even come up with a good explanation on why anything would cause a very simple circuit (the horn) to fail.


User currently offlineBimmerkid19 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7996 times:

Hmm imagine this,, WIFI inflight. On December 26th 2006, I flew on KE from ORD to ICN That was one of the last days that the Connexion by Boeing Service was operating. I had wireless for almost the entire flight and plus an inseat power port .. in Economy.. Nice

User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7903 times:

Quoting Bimmerkid19 (Reply 14):
Hmm imagine this,, WIFI inflight. On December 26th 2006, I flew on KE from ORD to ICN That was one of the last days that the Connexion by Boeing Service was operating. I had wireless for almost the entire flight and plus an inseat power port .. in Economy.. Nice

Too bad that is no more. It was fast (bandwidth & latency) enought to run Skype, barely.


User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 890 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7574 times:

On a British Airways flight that I was on, they repeatedly asked customers to make sure their cell-phones were switched off during the approach pattern as it was clear that they were having difficulty communicating with the tower. After two announcements that the FA made, the pilot actually came, (in a somewhat distressed voice) and asked all passengers to check and verify that their phones were off and not in a transmit mode. So I guess cell-phones do pose a danger to flights, and sometimes it's very obvious when it occurs.


LH 442
User currently offlineArcrftLvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7555 times:

The reason why cell phones are not allowed on in-flight is for CYA purposes....

If they were really that dangerous, then phones wouldn't be allowed on a plane, at all. Period. However, in a perfect situation, a cell phone could exascerbate a problem.

Also, would you want to sit on a fully loaded 737 listening to a bunch of blow-hards talking on their cell phones for 3 hours? Its a good thing cell phones are allowed on in-flight...


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2185 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7090 times:

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
which contain a built-in crime prevention function that automatically restarts the phone if it is switched off.

Just confiscate that d$%? battery and you can be assured it won't start again.  tapedshut  There is always hope that airplanes can stay one of the very few cellphone-free public spaces. (note : yes, I own a cellphone)



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlinePiedmontINT From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6678 times:

I know that on our B1900's it is very obvious that there is a cell phone(s) on during flight. One of our pilots told me that when a cell phone is on during flight there is a very annoying hissing and/or humming sound they can hear on their headphones, upon which time they will ask everyone to check their electronic devices.

User currently offlineLHRGregSE4 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6574 times:

Can anyone point to a study that acutaly verifies the claim that cell phones interefere with today's navigation devices. I think it's just scare mongering. Are there any incidents that were caused by apperant electronic use during takeoff or cruise?

User currently offlineJerald01 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 161 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6558 times:

Okay, so what is the REAL beef about using cell-phones on a commercial passenger flight:

1. It's against Federal Aviation Regulations.
1a. Why did the FAA implement those regulations?

2. It interferes with the aircraft navigation / communication system(s).
2a. Has this been proven? Are there any a-netter pilots out there who can definitively say they have experienced such interference on planes they were flying?

3. It overloads the cell-phone system by elevating individual cell phones to an altitude where more cell towers than the system was designed for are receiving signals from any one of the individual elevevated cell phones, thus causing the entire cell-phone system to deteriorate.
3a. Is there real proof that this happens?

4. Does anyone REALLY want to hear 100+ passengers yakking on their cell-phones within the confines of an aircraft cabin during a flight?
4a. Why did I ask that last question? D-U-M-B !!!

Well, maybe not so dumb... maybe that is the REAL reason the FAA enacted such a rule, and they did it so that the individual airlines wouldn't get hammered by the passengers for insisting the cell phones be turned off. The airlines don't have to take the heat from passengers for making that rule, because the FAA made it for them (at their insistence).

Think about it...



"There may be old pilots, and there may be bold pilots, but there are darn few green cows"
User currently offlineLHRGregSE4 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6467 times:

Quoting Jerald01 (Reply 21):
Does anyone REALLY want to hear 100+ passengers yakking on their cell-phones within the confines of an aircraft cabin during a flight?

Maybe then they could make quiet zones on planes. Plus not everyone would get reception that high up which might make the situation worse because they'd be yelling into their phones.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6339 times:

Quoting PiedmontINT (Reply 19):
I know that on our B1900's it is very obvious that there is a cell phone(s) on during flight. One of our pilots told me that when a cell phone is on during flight there is a very annoying hissing and/or humming sound they can hear on their headphones, upon which time they will ask everyone to check their electronic devices.

When I have my cellphone near my laptop, and then someone else around me uses their cellphone, I get a variation in brightness of the LCD backlight, sort of a flicker that doesn't go completely black.

But this doesn't happen when JUST my phone is in use. Thus there is likely a compounding effect of frequencies creating peaks and voids.

One can expect such a problem on a plane as well. Maybe one phone can't do much. But without the proper shielding, can 20 phones, all in various stages of sweeping the frequency and power spectrums for signal, creating a grid of peaks and voids in frequencies at various power levels, will that cause interference?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6013 times:

Another reactionary and dinosauric industry reaction. Despite multiple attempts, there has NEVER EVER been ANY scientifically documented instance of ANY portable electronic device interfering with any critical airplane function. NONE. if you take away the annecdotal pilots compplaint of buzz in their intercom, there is NOTHING.

On any given flight at least a handfull of electronic devices with wireless radios are left on and transmitting thorughout the flight and NOTHING EVER happens. Most laptops when turned on now have their WIFI connection search for pase stations and link to other computers. Nintendo DS and DSlite have WIFI and console to console wireless links. Cell phones are frequently left on in bags and carry-on luggage and are often turned on on people's pockets.

This ban on wireless devices in unecessary and ridiculous. The idustry should just get off this note. The ban on cell phones was exclusively designed to allow the airline air phones to charge you $8/min to make an in-flight call.

Thank god that has been killed, when the airlines realized that people are not stupid and they were simply carrying around extra weight.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
25 Typhaerion : Let me see if I can take a crack at answering these. For 1a see the answer to 2a. For 2a, if you do a little research in the discussion forums on this
26 Aeroman444 : It's been tested. As long as the phone is not within a few inches of the electronics it won't interfere with the aircraft systems. Think about it. Pre
27 Post contains links Starlionblue : If it was really important, the operators would simply install cell phone and wifi detectors on the aircraft. But this is one of those "not worth the
28 Baron95 : And the pilots know that the problem was caused by 0.6W cell phone tranmiters HOW???!!!!???? Did they eliminate the 2000W weather radar in a plane in
29 UAL777 : That is true. When I fly, I sometimes forget to turn off my cellphone and if someone calls me it causes a NASTY interference with the radios. There i
30 Starlionblue : I refer you to the link I posted in reply 27.
31 JamesJimlb : i've actually sent a message on my phone while we were decending and nothing happened.
32 Typhaerion : Easy Chief. I am not trying to start a war here. But I do hope that you realize that it has nothing to do with the relative power and everything to d
33 FLY2HMO : I haven't personally experienced anything too drastic, yet, aside from the some chirping on my headphones that I also hear on my computer speakers at
34 Dl757md : Also from the article if you read a little further down. As a result of these and other investigations, Boeing has not been able to find a definite c
35 Post contains images AirframeAS : To prevent air-rage by pax, of course! Just because there isn't any scientific documentation on the issue does not make it okay to use it on the airc
36 Justloveplanes : The answer to me is just shielding of electronics to EMI or use of other frequencies that don't collide with the airplane electronics. I would think t
37 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : This one immediately came to mind: For God's Sake, Switch Off Your Damn Cell Phones.. (by Pilotaydin Jan 11 2007 in Civil Aviation) And also Effects
38 Post contains links Tod : The JCAB is interested in the subject. http://www.icao.int/anb/panels/acp/WG/F/WGF7/wgf7_wp27.doc Tod
39 FlyBeQ400 : The average 747 flight has 6 mobile phones left on whilst on-board. The one thing you will notice if you left your phone on would be the very low batt
40 Cjh2007 : who gives actually gives a crap. there is no real proven data that cell phones have actually interfered with any airplanes navigation or control syste
41 Aa757first : What's the advantage of keeping a cell phone (that you're not allowed to talk on anyway) for an extra five minutes? Why not just turn it off when the
42 Avallillo : It sounds like most of these memos are being written by non-pilots! As a pilot for over 30 years for a major airline in the USA, I have had several co
43 LVHGEL : In a Kids Cell Phone, a battery is fixed and cant be removed from the device, unless the device is destroyed. Regarding all the "yes you can" "no you
44 Ward86IND : "Boeing conducted a laboratory and airplane test with 16 cell phones typical of those carried by passengers, to determine the emission characteristic
45 Post contains images Pizzaandplanes : They're just the next generation a.netters on their phones in the sky reading the forums.
46 UAL777 : The airplane I fly was made in 2006.
47 Post contains images Ikramerica : it actually does in the uSA. not complying with crewmember instructions is a crime. but beyond that, it makes you the typical 16-20 year old, who thi
48 Post contains images AirframeAS : I think that hits it on the nail completely. Game, set and match!
49 Lincoln : I'll take this moment to remind everyone that the primary reason for banning cell phones inflight (in the US at least) was originally pushed by the FC
50 C0ex : to be honest it does not interfere with the radio communication rather it interfere with communication during a emergency. If a person is playing ther
51 Centrair : I guess that the "phone" is not the problem. So GPS systems continuously giving the position of the child. So if 10-15 kids from Tokyo are flying on t
52 Baron95 : YES - REALLY!!!! Did you even read the article you quoted? If you read bellow the "... blah, blah, blah was reported to blah, blah, blah..." quote, y
53 Moek2000 : One time I accidentally left my cell phone on a 15 hr flight from DXB-JFK and I noticed after I got off at JFK... Nothing happened... But then again,
54 Post contains links Baron95 : http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...ne/aero_10/interfere_textonly.html Continuing to quote... "1995, 737 airplane. A passenger laptop computer was
55 Post contains images Starlionblue : First of all, calm down. We obviously don't agree. That's fine. No need to shout. If you stop to breathe a moment, you will notice that I never sugge
56 Post contains images AirframeAS : What about the PTV's on F9 or B6?
57 UAL777 : To be honest yes it does! I have seen and heard it happen about 10 times. It happens most with GSM phones.
58 OB1504 : A lot of the posters above you disagree; cellphones do interfere with radio communications. Although, I can imagine someone texting "OMG da plan iz c
59 Post contains images WestJetYQQ : Didn't 'Mythbusters' try to test this? They confirmed that it was only a myth and didn't interfere with the aircraft at all!
60 Post contains images Starlionblue : Tongue in cheek I guess. I have enormous respect and admiration for Adam and Jamie. They are skillful model builders and really good at explaining tr
61 Jerald01 : Well, I'm glad I posted my questions earlier today because you fellow a-netters responded with some really good posts! And, from what I have been able
62 Post contains images AirframeAS : Respect, yes. But when it comes to them trying to bust a myth on aviation related things, thats where I draw the line.
63 Post contains images Ward86IND : Are you serious??? You are comparing findings of numerous AIRLINE CAPTAINS with the TIN-HAT WEARERS??? Yes, I'm sure they were just kidding around wh
64 UAL777 : Thats because they didn't test it while recieving radio transmissions.
65 Ha763 : Correct. They only tested navigation equipment. They also ran tests with an instrument panel pulled from an aircraft in a faraday cage, which showed
66 PureKiwi : SOME Cellphones and other electronic devices can cause inteference with electronic devices but not others. I have 2 cellphones from different provider
67 Starlionblue : Absolutely. They are lacking in this department.
68 Post contains images LVHGEL : Might seem unfair or not based on scientific observations, but, is the law. And regarding cell phones See reply 49 form Lincoln. BTW, thank you Linco
69 Post contains images Starlionblue : Indeed. You'd have to do it like 100 times, including with damaged equipment, but yeah. Nitpick: It's "Bluetooth". One word. Capitalized. Also, it's
70 AirframeAS : It would be an episode of the ages.... Jamie and Adam would say "Lets bust a myth, CAN we fund this ourselves?!" ROFL!
71 Post contains images LVHGEL : Me Hungry, brain not working fine, thanks though
72 Post contains images Tod : EMI testing was conducted in the exact aircraft / PTV configuration. Considering that the relationship between the aircraft and pax provided electron
73 Baron95 : I'm sorry. I don not want to dismiss your experience as a pilot. As a pilot myself, I maintain that it is 100% within the captains prerrogative, rega
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Trapped Victims Calling From Cell Phones posted Wed Sep 12 2001 05:33:23 by COboeing777
[Press] Why Can't We Use Cell Phones In Flight? posted Fri Feb 16 2001 05:08:01 by Zanadou
Never Ending Discussion On Cell Phones posted Fri May 19 2000 19:25:10 by Buff
Midway Airlines & Phones posted Fri Jul 21 2000 00:25:01 by Sammyk
USA Based Airlines Hubs? posted Wed Jan 9 2002 15:41:35 by Lufthansa404
Alaska Airlines To Start Service To Denver (DEN) posted Wed Jan 9 2002 02:38:03 by BA
What Airlines Is B5? posted Wed Jan 9 2002 02:12:47 by JaseWGTN
Whats New At Srilankan Airlines posted Tue Jan 8 2002 23:19:46 by Airmale
HELP. How Often Do Airlines Renew Their Fleet posted Tue Jan 8 2002 21:56:28 by Funny
Mobile Phones On A/C posted Tue Jan 8 2002 19:21:59 by Bapilot2b