Arecibo From Spain, joined Aug 2004, 52 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9240 times:
In the late 70s.... American widely utilized 747s ( as 123s, SPs and freighters). In the early 80s; they discontinue pax 747 service for projected fuel savings of the DC-10/MD-11; but why leave the freight business completely?
Life is tough; It's touher if you're stupid. John Wayne.
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10193 posts, RR: 62 Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9149 times:
Quoting Arecibo (Thread starter): American widely utilized 747s ( as 123s, SPs and freighters).
I'm not sure if I'd say "widely used." Sure, AA did fly a few 747s on transcons and to Hawaii and the South Pacific, but compared to some other airlines of the time -- namely United, TWA and Pan Am, all of which had far, far larger international networks, AA was a rather small 747 player.
Except perhaps for the very beginning -- when every U.S. airline was rushing to get 747s for the prestige and novelty they attracted -- I don't think AA was every really committed to the 747 or its economics. I think that many in AA's finance department didn't trust the planes operating economics and felt that, beyond obviously being way, way too big for just about all of AA's markets (which were virtually all domestic at that time) the plane was incredibly inefficient on fuel, especially at the spiked prices AA (and the rest of the industry) was paying in the late 1970s and early 1980s following the oil embargoes.
Quoting Arecibo (Thread starter): In the early 80s; they discontinue pax 747 service for projected fuel savings of the DC-10/MD-11
It was the DC10s at that point, the MD11s hadn't come along yet.
AA was using its 747s on routes where it was way, way too much capacity -- like on transcons from JFK to LAX, and from the West Coast to Hawaii. AA later got two ex-TWA 747SPs that were purchased for use on AA's DFW-NRT service when that started in 1987. After the MD11s came along, those two planes were transferred to JFK where they operated JFK-BRU and JFK-LHR turns for about 18 months before being finally disposed of in 1991 or 1992.
The freight business at the time was being driven by unsustainably low and unprofitable yields and increasing competition, plus the general economic downturn and spike in fuel prices at the time. Beyond that, AA determined through careful study and analysis that it could still remain a vibrant and forceful player in the U.S. freight, cargo and mail market even without dedicated cargo aircraft. Obviously, looking at the landscape nearly three decades later, they were right: they are today the nation's fourth largest cargo carrier, despite the fact that #1, #2 and #3 (FedEx, UPS, and Northwest) all have dedicated freighters, and AA doesn't.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9112 times:
AA also flew the 747 to SJU. I remember those flights as a tiny tot, falling asleep in the upper deck lounge.
The order of events for AA and the 747:
747 replaced by DC10
followed by the addition of (years later)
747SP replaced by MD-11 replaced by 777
One of AA's ex-747s carries the space shuttle.
Quoting Commavia (Reply 1): they are today the nation's fourth largest cargo carrier, despite the fact that #1, #2 and #3 (FedEx, UPS, and Northwest) all have dedicated freighters, and AA doesn't.
This comes from a very large 777+A306+763 fleet or 137 aircraft (according to wiki). Lots of cargo space and a lot of flights that are short enough to have weight left over for cargo.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4721 posts, RR: 15 Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8986 times:
I have fond memories of flying F/C on an AA 747 from LA to HNL, upstairs in the lounge, drinking with several young and attractive (female and off-duty) airline employees, learning, amongst other things, how to tie cherry stems in knots inside my mouth! To this day, the skill remains with me and so do many pleasant thoughts.
Coa747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8969 times:
The were trying to offload them much earlier than the 80's. They even leased one out for the filming of Airport 75 and 77, which is obvious from the modified paint schemes. Airlines aren't usually in the habit of leasing out new aircraft for filming projects unless they can't make money with them in line service. Just my take anyway.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8833 times:
Quoting DFW13L (Reply 5): I read in some book on AA that the only consistently profitable 747 route was LAX-JFK. It said the other 747 routes were consistently unprofitable.
The 747 "race" of the 70's is a lesson to study for those saying things like "XYZ airline MUST buy the A380 to remain competitive with the competition." That was the exact thinking back then, in a similar situation where newer, more efficient, smaller jets were already for sale but just not delivered yet (the DC10 and L1011).
The main difference was that the 747-200 had more range than anything else, and it took the MD11/744/A340 to match/surpass it. The A380 has already been matched in range economically (by the 77W) before even entering service...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
WA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2043 posts, RR: 13 Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8595 times:
Quoting Coa747 (Reply 4): The were trying to offload them much earlier than the 80's.
American took delivery of 16 747-123s in 1970-71. Before AA's first aircraft arrived, AA leased two or three 747-121s from Pan Am, to remain competitive with TWA on JFK-LAX after TWA began flying the 747 on this route.
Several of the 747s were intended to fly LAX / SFO-Tokyo. The US CAB recommended American be awarded the routes, but the Japanese government would not allow a third passenger airline into Japan, so President Johnson overruled the CAB. AA's failure to get the routes to Japan left it with far more 747 capacity on US Domestic routes than they needed.
8 of the 747s were grounded after the 1973 Arab oil embargo. Seven were converted to freighters; three for AA, three for Flying Tigers, and one for TMA of Lebanon. The eighth went to NASA.
In 1978, AA also leased a 747 to Braniff International for a year. BI used this aircraft on DFW-HNL, and deployed their original 747 on BI's newly awarded DFW-LGW route. The aircraft AA leased to BI remained in polished metal, with a large orange stripe covering up AA's red / white / blue stripes, and Braniff titles and tail logo.
After AA grounded its fleet of 707Fs in 1980-81, AA repurchased the three 747Fs from Flying Tigers. All six 747Fs were phased out when the remaining 8 passenger aircraft were removed from service. An Air Transport World article in 1985 said that four of the reasons AA grounded the 747Fs were (1) After GM and Ford closed four assembly plants in California in the early 1980s, AA lost their Detroit-California auto parts business, (2) AA had already decided to phase out their passenger 747s, but would have had to pay their 747F pilots the same (very high) salaries their passenger 747 pilots were earning, (3) AA needed to replace their cargo terminal in Chicago, which was located where the international terminal is now, and AA did not want to spend the money to build a new cargo terminal for an aircraft type that would have needed to be replaced in a few years, and (4) UPS, one of AA's biggest customers, decided to operate its own aircraft, which would make it much harder for AA to fill the aircraft.
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10193 posts, RR: 62 Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8595 times:
Quoting DFW13L (Reply 5): I read in some book on AA that the only consistently profitable 747 route was LAX-JFK. It said the other 747 routes were consistently unprofitable.
I doubt if even JFK-LAX was "consistently" profitable. No doubt, some of the 747 flights transcon were profitable, but the 747 was still way, way too big for that market, even back then. The DC-10s in their day, and the 767s and 757s today, are far better suited to such a large, but fractured and high-frequency, market.
AA787823 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8526 times:
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7): American took delivery of 16 747-123s in 1970-71. Before AA's first aircraft arrived, AA leased two or three 747-121s from Pan Am, to remain competitive with TWA on JFK-LAX after TWA began flying the 747 on this route.
Several of the 747s were intended to fly LAX / SFO-Tokyo. The US CAB recommended American be awarded the routes, but the Japanese government would not allow a third passenger airline into Japan, so President Johnson overruled the CAB. AA's failure to get the routes to Japan left it with far more 747 capacity on US Domestic routes than they needed.
8 of the 747s were grounded after the 1973 Arab oil embargo. Seven were converted to freighters; three for AA, three for Flying Tigers, and one for TMA of Lebanon. The eighth went to NASA.
In 1978, AA also leased a 747 to Braniff International for a year. BI used this aircraft on DFW-HNL, and deployed their original 747 on BI's newly awarded DFW-LGW route. The aircraft AA leased to BI remained in polished metal, with a large orange stripe covering up AA's red / white / blue stripes, and Braniff titles and tail logo.
After AA grounded its fleet of 707Fs in 1980-81, AA repurchased the three 747Fs from Flying Tigers. All six 747Fs were phased out when the remaining 8 passenger aircraft were removed from service. An Air Transport World article in 1985 said that four of the reasons AA grounded the 747Fs were (1) After GM and Ford closed four assembly plants in California in the early 1980s, AA lost their Detroit-California auto parts business, (2) AA had already decided to phase out their passenger 747s, but would have had to pay their 747F pilots the same (very high) salaries their passenger 747 pilots were earning, (3) AA needed to replace their cargo terminal in Chicago, which was located where the international terminal is now, and AA did not want to spend the money to build a new cargo terminal for an aircraft type that would have needed to be replaced in a few years, and (4) UPS, one of AA's biggest customers, decided to operate its own aircraft, which would make it much harder for AA to fill the aircraft.
Actually most of the 16 passenger 747s went to Pan Am. AA worked out a "swap" deal with Pan Am in which AA aquired 30 DC10s (the former National birds). The 747Fs went to directly to UPS.
ORD From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1370 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8521 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 1): but compared to some other airlines of the time -- namely United, TWA and Pan Am, all of which had far, far larger international networks, AA was a rather small 747 player.
Good stuff. Just one correction: United did not have any international routes until Tokyo in 1983 (not counting Toronto or the Mexican Yucatan). It deployed its 18 747s on domestic routes in the 1970s and early 1980s, such as Hawaii, transcon and many routes from Chicago (including Las Vegas, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh among others).
Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8482 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 1): Sure, AA did fly a few 747s on transcons and to Hawaii and the South Pacific
when did AA use 747s to the South Pacific ? IIRC on their first attempt to serve the South Pacific markets they used 707s and on their second shortlived visit to the region they used DC10s
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Socalfive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8356 times:
Did they also have 747s deployed DAL-HNL for awhile? I remember as a kid flying into DAL and seeing a 747 sitting at the end-gate, I wonder now if it was a direct competition to Braniff's 747 flight from DAL-HNL.
WA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2043 posts, RR: 13 Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8296 times:
Quoting Socalfive (Reply 12): Did they also have 747s deployed DAL-HNL for awhile? I remember as a kid flying into DAL and seeing a 747 sitting at the end-gate, I wonder now if it was a direct competition to Braniff's 747 flight from DAL-HNL
AA didn't fly their 747s from Dallas to HNL until after the move to DFW. AA did fly 747s from DAL to LAX, in competition with DL's 747s, and possibly JFK.
Interestingly, both AA and DL began 747 service at DAL on Oct 25, 1970, but DL's 747 to LAX was a morning flight and AA's was an afternoon flight, so DL has the honor of being the first 747 operator from Dallas.
WNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1317 posts, RR: 9 Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8221 times:
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 11): United did not have any international routes until Tokyo in 1983
United didn't have ANY International flights 1983? Really?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
WA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2043 posts, RR: 13 Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8015 times:
Quoting AA787823 (Reply 9): Actually most of the 16 passenger 747s went to Pan Am. AA worked out a "swap" deal with Pan Am in which AA aquired 30 DC10s (the former National birds).
AA only had 8 passenger 747s left by the time the swap took place, and Pan Am had only 15 ex-National DC-10s. The swap was 8 AA 747s for 15 PA / NA DC-10s.
National had 16 DC-10s; the other ex-NA aircraft went to United.
ORD From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1370 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7945 times:
Quoting WNCrew (Reply 14): United didn't have ANY International flights 1983? Really?
Yes, that is correct. United started service to Vancouver around the 1950s and Toronto around the 1960s. Cancun, Cozumel and Merida, Mexico were added around the early 1980s.
United's first long-haul international flight was March 2, 1983 from Seattle-Tokyo (once per week from Portland). Seattle-Hong Kong was added shortly after that.
FlyingJHawk From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 85 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4433 times:
I had only one experience on a AA 747.
I remember flying an AA 747 in 1973 from ORD to LAX after a nice 9 hour flight on a LH 707 from FRA visiting my parents' homeland - I was 10 years old. We were late arriving from FRA and my mom and I had to make the mad dash from the old International Terminal (now basically the same space as the United Terminal) to the far end, or so it seemed, of AA's terminal operations. At one point like any proper 10 year old, I threatened my mom with giving up making the flight and collapsing in the middle of the concourse if we had to go any farther. We made barely made the flight and within minutes I was fast asleep which was an highly unusual since I was always so pumped to fly at that age. I woke up on the ground in LAX and on the way home to Yorba Linda I got sick. I will never forget what my dad gave me to calm down my stomach....a complete cocktail size bottle of Smirnoff vodka.
The wierd thing is that if definitely worked and I don't remember being drunk in the least bit. Can you imagine a remedy like that these days?
A memory I will never forget. Long live AA and their ultra-classic livery!
AA787823 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4301 times:
AA had several different configurations with the 747s over the years.
Some had 66F 300Y
Some had 50F 320Y
Till the early 1980s they had the lounge up-stairs, for about the last 1-2 years the upper deck had I think it was 16F and down stairs 375 (I think). In the mid 70s cannot forget that famous coach loung including the first piano in the sky lounge.
Yes at the time the 747 Luxury Liner was a true statement. I really miss those old birds.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21498 posts, RR: 24 Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4050 times:
Quoting WNCrew (Reply 14): United didn't have ANY International flights 1983? Really?
Before UA was awarded the SEA-NRT route in 1983, their only international destinations were YVR and YYZ.
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7): American took delivery of 16 747-123s in 1970-71. Before AA's first aircraft arrived, AA leased two or three 747-121s from Pan Am, to remain competitive with TWA on JFK-LAX after TWA began flying the 747 on this route.
The only thing you don't mention in your detailed AA 747 history is their purchase of 2 of TWA's 3 747SPs which they needed when they obtained the DFW-NRT route and had nothing at the time with enough range. They were operated from 1987 to 1992/93. In their latter couple of years of AA service (after MD-11s replaced them DFW-NRT) the SPs were used to Europe.
TAN FLYR From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1847 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3856 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6): The 747 "race" of the 70's is a lesson to study for those saying things like "XYZ airline MUST buy the A380 to remain competitive with the competition." That was the exact thinking back then, in a similar situation where newer, more efficient, smaller jets were already for sale but just not delivered yet (the DC10 and L1011).
The main difference was that the 747-200 had more range than anything else, and it took the MD11/744/A340 to match/surpass it. The A380 has already been matched in range economically (by the 77W) before even entering service...
A point I have been making for some time!
History sorta repeats itself....we are back to narrow-bodies on some western Europe flights,, just like the ol' 707 & DC-8 days..after a time period when everyone seemed to have the mindset that if an aircraft was going to cross the Atlantic (or to Hawaii in the Pacific) it had to be a widebody. Umm..no longer.
I sincerely believe that history will repeat itself again here with the 380...just mu hunch.
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10193 posts, RR: 62 Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3808 times:
Quoting ORD (Reply 10): Good stuff. Just one correction: United did not have any international routes until Tokyo in 1983
Forgive me, I meant to say 'overseas' routes: United obviously has always had a huge presence in the Mainland-Hawaii market, where as AA has only become a more prominent player really in the past decade. If I'm not mistaken the South Pacific routes started out as a mix of 747s and DC10s, and by the end of the line for those routes when they were traded with Pan Am for the Caribbean runs, they were the sovereign domain of the three-holers, with the 747s giving way to the DC10s.
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 11): when did AA use 747s to the South Pacific ? IIRC on their first attempt to serve the South Pacific markets they used 707s and on their second shortlived visit to the region they used DC10s
I'm not positive, but I don't believe the 707s were ever in the South Pacific. I believe that those markets were always served with 747s and DC10s.
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 13): AA didn't fly their 747s from Dallas to HNL until after the move to DFW. AA did fly 747s from DAL to LAX, in competition with DL's 747s, and possibly JFK.
To my knowledge, AA never flew the 747 on DFW-HNL. I could certainly be wrong, but I think that route was always the domain of the 10s.
Quoting AA787823 (Reply 19): Here is a seat map from around 1980 or so....
DFW13L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3703 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 22): To my knowledge, AA never flew the 747 on DFW-HNL. I could certainly be wrong, but I think that route was always the domain of the 10s.
In 1982 for certain (I have pictures of me at 8 years old with the 747 behind me at the gate) and possibly again in 1983, I flew on AA 5 DFW-HNL as a 747. I know by 1984 it was a DC10, so it might have changed in 1983. We flew AA out there every year starting in 1982.
Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 14 Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3658 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 22): I'm not positive, but I don't believe the 707s were ever in the South Pacific. I believe that those markets were always served with 747s and DC10s.
Ok , I have shown you my 707 in the South Pacific , please show me your 747
The DC-10s were definitely in the South Pacific when AA made their second attempt at the market - I actually remember one day lying on the grass in a park while one flew over and wondering if it was an ex-NZ model visiting its former home ( strangely I cant find any photos of them in the database even though they were more recent )
[Edited 2007-06-15 07:46:01]
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
25 WA707atMSP: AA flew 747s DFW-HNL from 1981, when the route was added, until 1984/85, when the 747s were phased out. AA only had DC-10-10s until 1982, when they b
26 OzarkD9S: We had a 747 substitute on AUA-JFK back in '76...flew down on a 707 and was expecting the same on return...quite a nice surprise. Of course a moderate
27 Viscount724: AA's South Pacific routes were all 707s when they began.
28 AA787823: I had the pleasure of flying a 747 from BOS-BDA waaaay back in 1976. I really miss the old days of Luxury flying.
29 28L28L: Does anyone have the acft. # used on AA's last 747 flight in September, 1984? I believe it was a LAX-JFK flight.
30 AA787823: Wow now thats a Double Jeapordy Question for airline geek!
31 GARUDAROD: My first B747 experience as both a passenger and in the working world, involved an AA B747. I remember waiting for 4hrs in 1971 to walk through the fi
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